yababy8 Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Yes, it is about passion. It's about passion for the University of North Dakota. The University of North Dakota always came, and will always come, before Fighting Sioux or any other nickname. My passion is for first things first -- the University of North Dakota. My point that you completely missed, is that people will always have passion for the familiar and will resist change, especially so for North Dakotans, and especially change foisted upon them by outsiders (see: Devils Lake HS, Wahpeton HS, GF Central HS, UND, Arkansas State). I intentionally picked three ND HS to show this. But, more importantly, the unfamiliar becomes familiar and times change. But the passion, if truly in the right place, will not. Ask Luke Johnson and he's a Knight and a ... well, he's "to be determined"; ask his dad Steve Johnson and he's a Redskin and a Sioux. I guarantee you the passion is as strong in each ... for Grand Forks Central and the University of North Dakota. So, yababy, are you passionate for your University ... or for a word and a picture. With each post you make you are making a different point. Where the locus of the passion lies is irrelevant to our debate. The question at hand is the validity of the comparison you made between the Highschools and UND. You can argue it might effect the future outcome of how well UND fans transition away from the the Sioux name and into a new one- i.e. because the name is not what they are passionate about, and in fact it doesn't matter what the nickname is, the passion lies in the institution separate from the name... That, once again would be a separate debate... This debate is about whether or not the highschools you referenced to as an example were apples to oranges. -Do we need to have a logic conversation about why 'apples' and 'oranges' were the chosen entities in the saying "apples to oranges"?? OK.. They are both foods and they both grow on trees- similar, yet they have differences- taste and texture etc. The whole point of the saying is to point out errors in logic like the ones you made and are now continuing to make. Once again, you could be absolutely correct that both your examples(the three high schools) and a university such as UND have a locus of pride that lies in the institution significantly more than the name hence UND fans would as a group have a similar experience in the name change to your high school examples. My point is that there are inherent difference between high school and Collegiate sports in the relm I pointed out in my last post that make them apples and oranges. You can argue all day long that the taste and the texture don't matter here and its all about growing on the tree and eating it that keeps the apple and the orange in good stead with the gatherer. Just know that as you debate the merits of the tree you absolutely lose the debate that the apple and the orange are not different because no matter how much you pound your hand against the sand exclaiming they are both fruits it will never change the fact that they taste different... ...now to to pull from your request to me way back at the beginning of my defense of my asseretion that your insidious comparison was apples to oranges; 'please keep on topic' So again, I say there are differences. I outlined some of the many that I could list in my previous post. Don't tell me how you dont believe they matter. Tell me I am incorrect about my description and we are in fact just looking at a bunch of apples? Or better yet, since you cannot reasonably do that, be reasonable and concede that high school and collegiate sports followings are apples and oranges. Then you can go back to what you really are trying to say. -That you think we should get a new name so people stop using the Sioux name- and all of your reasons why that is a capital idea... Quote
The Sicatoka Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 The point is the passion for the institution remains no matter the nickname, if the passion was for the institution and not just the nickname and picture. It matters not the institution that carries the passion for the comparison to be valid (HS, college, or even pro ... see: Washington Bullets Wizards fans, if there are any). You may continue with your fruit now. Quote
yababy8 Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 One last thing: If you don't believe Arkansas State fans were passionate for their Indians you don't believe what you typed above. But now the Arkansas State Red Wolves carry that same passion. Common factor? Arkansas State University. As soon as you concede that highschool and college sports followings are different I will be more than happy to tear the Sh*t out if this one... One at a time though. Its like A.D.D. land debating with you. Its 9 am and I'm tired already. uggg! Quote
BobIwabuchiFan Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 We Are North Dakota! Works for me - especially when I am wearing my Sioux jersey and yelling 'Go Sioux' passionately! 3 Quote
The Sicatoka Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Then you can go back to what you really are trying to say. -That you think we should get a new name so people stop using the Sioux name- and all of your reasons why that is a capital idea... As I stated: The main reason to choose a new nickname is to comply with the settlement agreement which states, "If UND does not adopt a new nickname and logo ... UND will be returned to the list of institutions subject to the Policy." Before you say it, "UND" is not a nickname it's an abbreviation of "the University of North Dakota" and it's not new (see the wording quoted from theSettlement Agreement); additionally, the lack of a nickname is not a nickname so the new criteria is not met there either. If I (a non-lawyer ) can realize that we're one peevish NCAA attorney away from being stuck in court ... again ... or worse. Here's where I'm at: We lost. Yeah, the game was probably rigged against us, but we lost just the same. I refuse to continue to act as a petulant child for a decade, especially in light of other schools who lost the same game the same way who've already moved on and moved forward. Am I happy about how all this played out? No. Do I wish August 5, 2005 never happened? Yes. But where we are now is the reality we must live in and how this is playing out now does not shine well on UND or the State. This is not how North Dakotans do business. We follow through on agreements and contracts. Quote
The Sicatoka Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 As soon as you concede that highschool and college sports followings are different I will be more than happy to tear the Sh*t out if this one... One at a time though. Its like A.D.D. land debating with you. Its 9 am and I'm tired already. uggg! Passionate sports fans are passionate sports fans, see: Texas HS football, or Grand Forks Redskins fans during that transition. The comparison was about institutions with passion coming through a name change. That's what you're not seeing. And have you had your morning orange yet? Quote
yababy8 Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 The point is the passion for the institution remains no matter the nickname, if the passion was for the institution and not just the nickname and picture. It matters not the institution that carries the passion for the comparison to be valid (HS, college, or even pro ... see: Washington Bullets Wizards fans, if there are any). You may continue with your fruit now. No, the point was whether or not high school and collegiate sports followings were apples to oranges. Not where the locus of the passion lies... You are wanting to have a new debate about how significant the nickname is in the overall investment of passion? Oh and you want to have a debate about Arkansas state's transition compared to the predicted transition North Dakota would experience if we get a new name? What about the debate we were supposed to be having?? Quote
BobIwabuchiFan Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Given the information from the Nickname forums, is the use of ND not an acceptable logo and nickname per the contract? If so, why fight it when we can have the best of both worlds - ND as the formal nickname and Sioux as the informal nickname? You will not find another nickname that will generate as much revenue as the Fighting Sioux did for the University, so continue with what we have now and rally around the times when we are allowed to sell the informal nickname and logo for Trademark reasons. 2 Quote
yababy8 Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Focus: High school sports vs collegiate sports "passions"; apples to oranges? Yes!, Why, see my post on the last page... 1 Quote
homer Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 As soon as you concede that highschool and college sports followings are different I will be more than happy to tear the Sh*t out if this one... One at a time though. Its like A.D.D. land debating with you. Its 9 am and I'm tired already. uggg! High school sport following across the country? Quote
The Sicatoka Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 No, the point was whether or not high school and collegiate sports followings were apples to oranges. Not where the locus of the passion lies... Apparently you didn't read my statement the way it was intended. You don't hear Satans, Wops, or Redskins much now at Devils Lake, Wahpeton, or GF Central anymore. You don't hear those any more, but those institutions are doing just fine. Their fans and supporters are still there. The world didn't end for them. They moved on. Same for Arkansas State. They moved on. UND can and will do the same. Side note: Removing the old nickname comes under the category of "I don't like it, but I have to do it" for me. Choosing a new one is the same category. I refuse to live under the specter of the old moniker because it continues to give power to the folks who took it away. Choosing a new moniker finally kicks the soap box out from under them ... and I so look forward to that day. Quote
Chewey Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 ... in your opinion. And I'd say it's been more than three years. The handwriting was on the wall in August 2005 when this policy first saw light of day. As far as the majority being angry, the only majority I can point to with empirical evidence is the majority of voters who voted to retire the name. The main reason to choose a new nickname is to comply with the settlement agreement which states, "If UND does not adopt a new nickname and logo ... UND will be returned to the list of institutions subject to the Policy." Before you say it, "UND" is not a nickname it's an abbreviation of "the University of North Dakota" and it's not new (see the wording quoted from the Settlement Agreement); additionally, the lack of a nickname is not a nickname so the new criteria is not met there either. If I (a non-lawyer ) can realize that we're one peevish NCAA attorney away from being stuck in court ... again ... or worse. Here's where I'm at: We lost. Yeah, the game was probably rigged against us, but we lost just the same. I refuse to continue to act as a petulant child for a decade, especially in light of other schools who lost the same game the same way who've already moved on and moved forward. Well, there is additional empirical evidence from the survey and the fact that no nickname was/is a huge preference asserted by many who filled out the survey, attended the "town hall meetings", etc. There is ambiguity in the settlement agreement language. It says that UND will transition to a new nickname and logo that do not violate the NCAA policy or cause it to violate the NCAA policy. It does not specifically prohibit the no nickname option. Any prohibition would clearly be foolish. I'm not sure if that option was entertained when the document was drafted but the fact remains that not having a nickname is NOT in violation of the policy against "offensive nicknames". So, UND is going from having a "hostile, abusive, capriciously offensive" nickname that is in violation of the policy which subjected them to sanctions to not having a nickname which clearly is not in violation of the policy which will subject them to sanctions when this latter scenario was not clearly contemplated or prohibited? There's nothing petulant about this. There's nothing petulant about holding Kelley, et al to their exaggerated pieties about respecting tradition, being inclusive, staking out a path towards healing, etc. All of that, as we're seeing now and as we knew when it was said, is nothing more than meaningless hyperbole. 1 Quote
Old Time Hockey Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Given the information from the Nickname forums, is the use of ND not an acceptable logo and nickname per the contract? If so, why fight it when we can have the best of both worlds - ND as the formal nickname and Sioux as the informal nickname? You will not find another nickname that will generate as much revenue as the Fighting Sioux did for the University, so continue with what we have now and rally around the times when we are allowed to sell the informal nickname and logo for Trademark reasons. Spot on! Per the agreement the only entity that can obtain the rights to the Sioux, aside from the university itself, is one of or both of the states Sioux tribes. Why not make a deal with the Spirit Lake tribe to sell Fighting Sioux merchandise all the while UND has ND as the "official" nickname and logo. Its kinda like a self-titled album..... Makes sense to a lot of us old alumns! 3 Quote
Old Time Hockey Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Well, there is additional empirical evidence from the survey and the fact that no nickname was/is a huge preference asserted by many who filled out the survey, attended the "town hall meetings", etc. There is ambiguity in the settlement agreement language. It says that UND will transition to a new nickname and logo that do not violate the NCAA policy or cause it to violate the NCAA policy. It does not specifically prohibit the no nickname option. Any prohibition would clearly be foolish. I'm not sure if that option was entertained when the document was drafted but the fact remains that not having a nickname is NOT in violation of the policy against "offensive nicknames". So, UND is going from having a "hostile, abusive, capriciously offensive" nickname that is in violation of the policy which subjected them to sanctions to not having a nickname which clearly is not in violation of the policy which will subject them to sanctions when this latter scenario was not clearly contemplated or prohibited? There's nothing petulant about this. There's nothing petulant about holding Kelley, et al to their exaggerated pieties about respecting tradition, being inclusive, staking out a path towards healing, etc. All of that, as we're seeing now and as we knew when it was said, is nothing more than meaningless hyperbole. Well said Chewey! Kelley was brought here for one reason and he is getting tired of waiting for the finish line. 4 Quote
The Sicatoka Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Well, there is additional empirical evidence from the survey and the fact that no nickname was/is a huge preference asserted by many who filled out the survey, attended the "town hall meetings", etc. There was conversation about here in the past about how that data was reported. I don't recall the outcome so I'll let someone else deal finding that information. There is ambiguity in the settlement agreement language. Indeed. And that ambiguity means that UND is the "the wrong judge in the wrong court on the wrong day" away from being subject to the NCAA Policy. There is one sure-fire way to avoid that: Choose a new nickname*. *Absence of a nickname is not a "new" nickname. It'd be like me putting my car in storage (because it didn't meet 'NCAA emissions standards' ) and then when someone at work asks me about my new car I point to an empty parking spot in the lot and say, "There it is." Quote
jdub27 Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Side note: Removing the old nickname comes under the category of "I don't like it, but I have to do it" for me. Choosing a new one is the same category. I refuse to live under the specter of the old moniker because it continues to give power to the folks who took it away. Choosing a new moniker finally kicks the soap box out from under them ... and I so look forward to that day. So much this. Quote
BobIwabuchiFan Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 I'm advocating North Dakota as our nickname and the interlocking ND as our logo...Plain and simple. If we decided to celebrate this new logo as well as the old logo, so be it - we are just using our rights to free expression without any University involvement. Case closed. Now let's move forward and get North Dakota as our nickname and the ND logo locked in and we can begin celebrating both without anymore interruption from the PC crowd. Quote
Shawn-O Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 I'm advocating North Dakota as our nickname and the interlocking ND as our logo...Plain and simple. If we decided to celebrate this new logo as well as the old logo, so be it - we are just using our rights to free expression without any University involvement. Case closed. Now let's move forward and get North Dakota as our nickname and the ND logo locked in and we can begin celebrating both without anymore interruption from the PC crowd. North Dakota North Dakotans? Quote
The Sicatoka Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 North Dakota North Dakotans? "Tampa Bay Tampa Bay" -- Denny Green 1 Quote
Oxbow6 Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 "Tampa Bay Tampa Bay" -- Denny Green With a name like that......"they are who we thought they were..." Quote
Siouxphan27 Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 There was conversation about here in the past about how that data was reported. I don't recall the outcome so I'll let someone else deal finding that information. Indeed. And that ambiguity means that UND is the "the wrong judge in the wrong court on the wrong day" away from being subject to the NCAA Policy. There is one sure-fire way to avoid that: Choose a new nickname*. *Absence of a nickname is not a "new" nickname. It'd be like me putting my car in storage (because it didn't meet 'NCAA emissions standards' ) and then when someone at work asks me about my new car I point to an empty parking spot in the lot and say, "There it is." The question becomes is the NCAA going to force you to buy a car? Your lack of a car clearly meets their emissions standards. 1 Quote
90siouxfan Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 At risk of prolonging a dying argument on HS vs College passion, I would like to add my humble observation. College passion is more powerful and longer lasting because the choosing of a college is one of the first major decision a young person makes upon entering adulthood. 2 Quote
The Sicatoka Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 The question becomes is the NCAA going to force you to buy a car? Your lack of a car clearly meets their emissions standards. Better question: Can I get to where I want to be without a car? Quote
Siouxphan27 Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Better question: Can I get to where I want to be without a car? You've gotten around fine for a couple years without a car. You're probably in better shape now! Plus, nobody's complaining about your old car. 1 Quote
The Sicatoka Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 I'm also stuck to a world that is within walking distance. I'd like to go places. Not replacing the car is holding me back. Quote
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