How will you vote June 12th?

[Siouxperfan7]

Your history lesson and my history lesson are not contradictory, they cover different aspects of the name fight history. I thought it was you that said the vote would be 95% in favor if it was only about who believed there was nothing wrong with uing the Sioiux name. Doesn't matter who said it. You, me and they know it wouldn't be that high. My point is that I see a graet value in the people of North Dakota speaking in an enumerated medium(a vote). IF we don't vote for the name history may very well write that the name was not supported by the people. I know this is how things work in society. You are wasting your time to argue this point. We kill hundreds of thousands of people for things like figments of our emagination. see "weapons of mass distruction". We decide elections based on smoke screens like flag burning, gay marriage, abortion while corperations have morphed our society into a socialism supported by the very party that denounces socialism itself.

This issue is a perfect example, democrats are significantly less supportive of the name in North Dakota. Why? This issue has big money, big power and concervative interest all over it. The democrats should be hammering the big bully NCAA organization. But what ever, the point is people are gullable and easily influenced and to vote to kill the name will open the doors to the influence of propaganda which will very likely revise history to show that the name was voted down by the people because they new it was "hostile and abusive".

Speaking of "hostile and abusive" I have a question for you mr History 82Sioux;

In either the settlement or the meetings in Indianapolis, I can't remember, didn't the NCAA commit to retract the "hostile and abusive" label regarding our use of the Sioux name? I'm confident something along these lines occurred but I can't recall the specifics?

Still didn't answer the questions!!! We will give you another shot.....

[82SiouxGuy]

Your history lesson and my history lesson are not contradictory, they cover different aspects of the name fight history. I thought it was you that said the vote would be 95% in favor if it was only about who believed there was nothing wrong with uing the Sioiux name. Doesn't matter who said it. You, me and they know it wouldn't be that high. My point is that I see a graet value in the people of North Dakota speaking in an enumerated medium(a vote). IF we don't vote for the name history may very well write that the name was not supported by the people. I know this is how things work in society. You are wasting your time to argue this point. We kill hundreds of thousands of people for things like figments of our emagination. see "weapons of mass distruction". We decide elections based on smoke screens like flag burning, gay marriage, abortion while corperations have morphed our society into a socialism supported by the very party that denounces socialism itself.

This issue is a perfect example, democrats are significantly less supportive of the name in North Dakota. Why? This issue has big money, big power and concervative interest all over it. The democrats should be hammering the big bully NCAA organization. But what ever, the point is people are gullable and easily influenced and to vote to kill the name will open the doors to the influence of propaganda which will very likely revise history to show that the name was voted down by the people because they new it was "hostile and abusive".

Speaking of "hostile and abusive" I have a question for you mr History 82Sioux;

In either the settlement or the meetings in Indianapolis, I can't remember, didn't the NCAA commit to retract the "hostile and abusive" label regarding our use of the Sioux name? I'm confident something along these lines occurred but I can't recall the specifics?

This is the statement from the settlement that the NCAA later posted on their web site. I don't know if it is still there. The support of the Native American community, as defined by the settlement, would be the approval of both Spirit Lake and Standing Rock. UND never got the approval of Standing Rock. Is that what you were looking for?

The NCAA recognizes the University of North Dakota's many programs and outreach services to the Native American community and surrounding areas. The University of North Dakota is a national leader in offering educational programs to Native Americans.

The University has indicated that it intends to use the current name and logo with the utmost respect and dignity, and only for so long as it may do so with the support of the Native American community. The NCAA does not dispute UND's sincerity in this regard.

The NCAA believes, as a general proposition, that the use of Native American names and imagery can create a hostile or abusive environment in collegiate athletics. However, the NCAA did not make any other findings about the environment on UND's campus. The NCAA also acknowledges that reasonable people can disagree about the propriety of Native American imager in athletics. The NCAA believes that the time has come to retire Native American imagery in college sports.

[UNDColorado]

Your history lesson and my history lesson are not contradictory, they cover different aspects of the name fight history. I thought it was you that said the vote would be 95% in favor if it was only about who believed there was nothing wrong with uing the Sioiux name. Doesn't matter who said it. You, me and they know it wouldn't be that high. My point is that I see a graet value in the people of North Dakota speaking in an enumerated medium(a vote). IF we don't vote for the name history may very well write that the name was not supported by the people. I know this is how things work in society. You are wasting your time to argue this point. We kill hundreds of thousands of people for things like figments of our emagination. see "weapons of mass distruction". We decide elections based on smoke screens like flag burning, gay marriage, abortion while corperations have morphed our society into a socialism supported by the very party that denounces socialism itself.

This issue is a perfect example, democrats are significantly less supportive of the name in North Dakota. Why? This issue has big money, big power and concervative interest all over it. The democrats should be hammering the big bully NCAA organization. But what ever, the point is people are gullable and easily influenced and to vote to kill the name will open the doors to the influence of propaganda which will very likely revise history to show that the name was voted down by the people because they new it was "hostile and abusive".

Speaking of "hostile and abusive" I have a question for you mr History 82Sioux;

In either the settlement or the meetings in Indianapolis, I can't remember, didn't the NCAA commit to retract the "hostile and abusive" label regarding our use of the Sioux name? I'm confident something along these lines occurred but I can't recall the specifics?

So HOW exactly is keeping the name going to get UND off of the sanctions? Once again HOW is keeping the name going to get UND off of the hostile & abusive list? If you can provide some actual facts I will certainly listen...

BTW the ncaa said they would give us some time before they imposed the sanctions because of al carlson's law would not be able to be repealed until the next legislative session the the following November. This is what a FACT looks like!

[Gma loves hockey]

In a way, I appreciate the Al Carlson bill. It was a grand final stand for the name and logo. What it did was to prove that state laws are not effective in a private membership deal and do not affect the outcome. The sanctions still held. I believe that was the turning point for a lot of us, realizing the dramatics would not change anything. If I recall right, it was after that when Coach Hakstol changed his position on the issue also. That was when many of us realized that the sanctions really existed and would affect us greatly in the long run. As resistant as I am to change and love the name and logo, the time has come to gracefully retire them and move on.

[82SiouxGuy]

That is just so wrong on so many levels. (facepalm)

You are wrong on so many levels.

[ScottM]

Oh sure, the day after the NCAA announced their racest mandate the Spirit Lake Sioux should have rushed to the waiting cameras of the attentive press and denounce the NCAA. It's not like they had to work through an onslought of propaganda which included constant associations between those who supported the name and anti-semitism, Natzism, and white supremacy. You remember the days before the Spirit Lake don't you smart guy? Remeber the flyers stating that Ralph Englestad was a racest and a Nazi supporter don't you. I do. I remember the sports illustrated article, the New York times article, "The sign of the times" segment on nightline. All of that stuff was about as prevalent as the kill the name stuff is today.

It is so goddam funney how the one constant in the entire history of the name change is that the Kill the name side has always had such energy and yet it has been from a semmingly different rational over time. It reminds me of how a child argues a point. Relentless barrage of meandering and morphing points until they get their way. Where was the passion from the ulumni association 7 years ago? Where were the TV commercials and the OPEN trips to the tribes? How many times did they write letters to places like St.Clound, Minnesota, Iowa explaining the REALITY of our use of the name?

We will live if we vote for the name. As I said it can always be killed later if the Nazi's come onto Columbia ave and start blowing the crap out of our athletic facilites.

We can have one vote for the name. 82Sioux says what is the point. He says the vote would be 95% for the name. Well I would say that a vote of 95% for anything would be a historic vote and it would speak to the irrationality and hypocracy of the NCAA's policy. It just might garner some national member support, especially if the press actually reported it. Now this is where the UND administation comes in. Time to advocate for what they should have been for the last decade.

ONE TIME!

God, don't tell me you have a degree from UND. Then again, maybe you got a degree from CAS which might explain your short-bus screeds.

Anyway, what are some of the tangible benefits to UND and its student-athletes if UND was forced to keep the Sioux moniker? The sanctions have already shown some detrimental. tangible effects, and more will show themselves over time. So, maybe you and the other Stooges can lay out some of the tangible "postives", and don't rest on "it's the right thing to do" like it's a toilet.

[UNDBIZ]

Hey facepalm, I mean yababy8, why do you have more posts than UNDBIZ who clearly has no life or job or girlfriend and clearly lives in his parents basement?

I don't live with my grandma, my grandma lives with me!! There's a difference!!

[Siouxperfan7]

yababy, Fetch, Dave, whoever else is voting NO, We are are all still wating for answers to the questions brought up. How does keeping the name help UND? How does it force the NCAA to back down? How does it get UND off sanctions? Voting for it because you are made at the NCAA is not a good enough reason. Please explain to me how not being able to host playoff games EVER, not being able to play Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, South Dakota State, and an ever growing list of schools is a good thing? Those things are affecting us right now!! There is specualtion about other consequences of keeping the name, but I want to hear your logic about how dealing with the current santions and unable to play these schools is good for UND? Still waiting.......

[jdub27]

That is just so wrong on so many levels. (facepalm)

I feel confident that it is accurate because your response shows you don't understand it. Also, I'd ask for examples on what is wrong with it but looking at your track record, I know you will either change the question or use some straw man argument and avoid it.

[82SiouxGuy]

I feel confident that it is accurate because your response shows you don't understand it. Also, I'd ask for examples on what is wrong with it but looking at your track record, I know you will either change the question or use some straw man argument and avoid it.

He will also throw in references to Nazis, PC zealots or some other name calling to distract from his lack of actual facts (other than the fact that he really, really, really likes the nickname).

[Siouxperfan7]

And we are still wating...........got those answers yet???

[Chewey]

It doesn't really matter at this point whether anyone else gets to keep their name or not. UND did not get tribal approval within the deadlines. I say deadlines plural, because UND had 2 opportunities to meet a deadline. There was the original deadline for appeals in 2006. That was the deadline that FSU. Utah and Central Michigan, as well as a few others, met. As I pointed out earlier, UND just needed approval from 1 tribe at that point. All Spirit Lake needed to do was send a letter with 1 sentence on it to the NCAA. Spirit Lake refused to do that. Then UND took the NCAA to court. The result was a legal settlement. One of the penalties was needing to get approval from 2 tribes, and in exchange UND got an extension until November 30, 2010. UND couldn't meet that deadline because Standing Rock refused to even talk to them, much less work with them.

So, it doesn't matter what is happening with the other schools. It may not be fair, but I told you earlier that life isn't fair. What has happened with the other schools has no bearing on what is happening to UND. Do what is right for the University of North Dakota and vote YES on Measure 4.

I'd like to know how the Alumni Association and all of UND's supporters across the state and out of state could not prevail upon ANY of the 3 Congressional invertebrates to get the NCAA to reconsider and/or back off. Even as Governor, Hoeven gave some tepid statement of support allowing the people to vote; presumably this came after emails and telephone calls from UND supporters. I just don't get how these guys just sit on the sideline irrespective of overwhelming support. I guess I'm ashamed to say that Hoeven is from my hometown and even graduated from the same Catholic high school (1975, I believe). Very disappointing.

[82SiouxGuy]

I'd like to know how the Alumni Association and all of UND's supporters across the state and out of state could not prevail upon ANY of the 3 Congressional invertebrates to get the NCAA to reconsider and/or back off. Even as Governor, Hoeven gave some tepid statement of support allowing the people to vote; presumably this came after emails and telephone calls from UND supporters. I just don't get how these guys just sit on the sideline irrespective of overwhelming support. I guess I'm ashamed to say that Hoeven is from my hometown and even graduated from the same Catholic high school (1975, I believe). Very disappointing.

For whatever reason, it wasn't a fight that any of them wanted. Maybe they didn't see UND winning against the NCAA. The Florida people made noise and the NCAA set up an appeal process. UND couldn't get through that process. Maybe the North Dakota delegation didn't think they could get the NCAA to move any further. Or maybe they thought they had more important things to worry about in the country than a college sports nickname.

[Chewey]

Practically every individual on here is a nickname and logo supporter. Ironically, out of a concern for UND athletics that has some legitimacy (I think the basis for such concern has been overstated, propagandized, and unduly magnified - See Faison vs. Wanless, Faison "misstatements", Shaft's irresponsible commentary vis-a-vis Notre Dame etc.), some supporters have as their focus the same end result as the Jeanotte's, RHHIT, JTA, Lucy G, David Gipps, etc. of the debate. The fact that many of the former strongest supporters of the nickname and logo are now aligned in focus with many of the victimizers, albeit for different reasons, who have assaulted and besieged UND for years is a bitter reality.

I would suggest that some here ply their energies more effectively as June 12th approaches. Any further debate on this matter is a waste of energy and only serves to display conceit and theatrics. It is what it is and people are not going to be convinced otherwise. If anyone wants to assist in going door to door, disseminating fliers/signs or going around the state in the "Save the Fighting Sioux" RV, let me know via private IM. After all, we have $250K and cocktail parties to work against.......

[Chewey]

For whatever reason, it wasn't a fight that any of them wanted. Maybe they didn't see UND winning against the NCAA. The Florida people made noise and the NCAA set up an appeal process. UND couldn't get through that process. Maybe the North Dakota delegation didn't think they could get the NCAA to move any further. Or maybe they thought they had more important things to worry about in the country than a college sports nickname.

Funny how the consideration seemed important enough to the Florida delegation. The "more important things" did not stop them. At its core, this matter is an assault by a monopolistic and low-core aggressive entity against a State owned and operated institution and against the people/government of that state. That would seem to be an important consideration for anyone truly worthy of holding elective office.

[ScottM]

I'd like to know how the Alumni Association and all of UND's supporters across the state and out of state could not prevail upon ANY of the 3 Congressional invertebrates to get the NCAA to reconsider and/or back off. Even as Governor, Hoeven gave some tepid statement of support allowing the people to vote; presumably this came after emails and telephone calls from UND supporters. I just don't get how these guys just sit on the sideline irrespective of overwhelming support.

In my own view, and based on many of the things that happened from 2005-07, I don't think many in power thought the NC$$ was serious, or that UND would easily meet the settlement terms. If any one of NoDak's MOC had raised the same full-throated rebuke of the NC$$ that those from Florida and Utah did, we may not be having this conversation. The only "X" factor would still be approval from SR or SL. SL's leadership at the time told Kupchella the name issue wasn't their concern, which may have led us to litigation and the resulting two-tribes approval requirement.

Having been privy to any number of large scale settlements with various agencies, I know that many issues are discussed sub silencio that do not reach the agreement. I believe UND's move to D1 was part of that discussion and the Sioux moniker was the price to be paid to ensure the NC$$ didn't road block us. And it appears, based on the rumblings from other schools, conferences, etc., that I may be correct.

[The Sicatoka]

We will live if we vote for the name.

What difference will that make? How will that get UND off sanctions? Please be specific.

[Chewey]

In my own view, and based on many of the things that happened from 2005-07, I don't think many in power thought the NC$$ was serious, or that UND would easily meet the settlement terms. If any one of NoDak's MOC had raised the same full-throated rebuke of the NC$$ that those from Florida and Utah did, we may not be having this conversation. The only "X" factor would still be approval from SR or SL. SL's leadership at the time told Kupchella the name issue wasn't their concern, which may have led us to litigation and the resulting two-tribes approval requirement.

Having been privy to any number of large scale settlements with various agencies, I know that many issues are discussed sub silencio that do not reach the agreement. I believe UND's move to D1 was part of that discussion and the Sioux moniker was the price to be paid to ensure the NC$$ didn't road block us. And it appears, based on the rumblings from other schools, conferences, etc., that I may be correct.

I agree. The Sioux nickname and logo probably very well were/are the ransom to be paid for d1 status. All the more reason in hindsight that UND should have jumped when NDSU did.

[jdub27]

Practically every individual on here is a nickname and logo supporter. Ironically, out of a concern for UND athletics that has some legitimacy (I think the basis for such concern has been overstated, propagandized, and unduly magnified - See Faison vs. Wanless, Faison "misstatements", Shaft's irresponsible commentary vis-a-vis Notre Dame etc.), some supporters have as their focus the same end result as the Jeanotte's, RHHIT, JTA, Lucy G, David Gipps, etc. of the debate. The fact that many of the former strongest supporters of the nickname and logo are now aligned in focus with many of the victimizers, albeit for different reasons, who have assaulted and besieged UND for years is a bitter reality.

I would suggest that some here ply their energies more effectively as June 12th approaches. Any further debate on this matter is a waste of energy and only serves to display conceit and theatrics. It is what it is and people are not going to be convinced otherwise. If anyone wants to assist in going door to door, disseminating fliers/signs or going around the state in the "Save the Fighting Sioux" RV, let me know via private IM. After all, we have $250K and cocktail parties to work against.......

I agree 100% that it is not a good feeling to know that those that are fighting for the University to be the best it can be now want the same end result as those who have come after UND for years with accusations and stories, with the majority of those proven to be baseless and fabricated.

I only agree partially with your second statement. It is true that continuing to argue with those on here who have dug in their heels will not change their mind. But there are many are many people who only read what goes on in these forums and do not participate, most likely a lot of people with limited knowledge of the history and proceedings of this mess. By allowing those who won't face the reality of the situation to continue to put out fairyland situations or asinine comments where the threats aren't real, those people searching for information on the subject are very likely to walk away with the wrong idea. That can not happen. People need to be properly educated on the matter and make their decision from that. The Alumni Association is taking the lead on that in the traditional media, there are many on this board who are making sure that same message is delivered for those looking here for information as well.

[The Sicatoka]

I agree. The Sioux nickname and logo probably very well were/are the ransom to be paid for d1 status. All the more reason in hindsight that UND should have jumped when NDSU did.

Arkansas State was a full DI before August 5, 2005. The former Indians are now the RedWolves.

The transition from DII to DI mattered not. Policy is policy and the NCAA's policy affects all membership levels (DI, DII, or DIII).

[geaux_sioux]

Hey UNDBIZ, I am assuming you have or are getting a Business degree from UND. I was fortunate enough to have two years of school enrolled in the business department at UND. I therefore know that a business degree at UND requires a couple of accounting classes, some statistics and a few other classes that require math.

Given this, could you help out hoody boy here on the flaws in his point while I go wash my face..

Yes I realize you have been a member much longer, but you fail to see my point that you are a dick

[The Sicatoka]

yababy8

geaux_sioux

Stop with the name calling now.

[geaux_sioux]

yababy8

geaux_sioux

Stop with the name calling now.

Sorry buzz killington, didn't know it was wrong to call someone out on being an ass for no reason

[fightingsioux4life]

Sorry buzz killington, didn't know it was wrong to call someone out on being an ass for no reason

Don't stoop to their level. They have lost and they just don't realize it yet. Or they simply don't want to.

[JohnboyND7]

Why do you do this?. I know you saw my post a couple days ago challenging you not to post anything on this forum for a week. You love UND so much that you just can't stay away for more than a couple days. Very sad and comical at the same time. The best part is that you and other trolls seem to think that moo u has moved on but we all know that is just denial as its finest. Way to keep it classy troll.

Like GeauxSioux said, it is fun to poke people. Especially on such a 'touchy' issue. Just because you challenge someone to do something doesn't mean they are going to do it. I don't exactly look at your post and say, "Aw Gee, better listen to him." If I challenge you to stay away for a week, will you? Probably not. I got surgery done. I'm confined to my house. Its the off-season. Other than playing solitaire, I don't really have a lot going on, might as well see what is going on.

Ease up bro, I'd hate to see how irritable you get during the season. Btw, if your going to claim something is the 'best part', make sure it applies. What do me and other posters have to do with it? Both universities seem to be doing just fine. Now if you are referring to the fans, mostly people like Lakes will play the whole "moved on" card. The rest, not so much. I wouldn't be here if I didn't have interest in everything.

Vote NO! SAVE THE SIOUX! IF YOU WON'T DO IT FOR ME, DO IT FOR DAVEK!