The Sanctions and Punishments Have Arrived

[Chewey]

Good point. Another thought I had is the reason (whether they recognizie it or not) that the nickname-at-all-costs crowd cling to the idea of the legendary 1969 pipe ceremony is because it has an aura about it that is unbreakable or irreversible simply because it is so much more intangible than a signed document, a treaty or a series of "whereases" and "therefores" on a perishable piece of paper. It gives it a sort of mystical treatment that is somehow more important than mere modern tribal law because it is so closely tied to native elders and religion. It also fuels the suggestion that any attempt to question it is equivilent to sacrilege or a tribal form of treason. Finally, for all these reasons, the pipe ceremony is seen as never-ending and immune from modern tribal meddling. Pretty convenient, if you ask me, since pretty much all of the participants in the pipe ceremony are all dead and gone.

Would it simply take another pipe ceremony between UND and Standing Rock to jointly reverse the first pipe ceremony to satisfy the nickname-at-all-costers -- or is the contention that it has to be the original participants in order to make it legit? If that's the case, we'll need to have a seance to raise the dead! Again, how convenient.

It is permanent. So says even Leonard Peltier. SL and Archie Fool Bear are not arguing that simply for the sake of convenience. That's how it is. It's like the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. The Pope can't go against what's been established orthodoxy for centuries, even though there's the misinformation that the Pope is infallible (Infallibility has only been exercised probably less than 5 times in 2,000 years). Of course, the Pope could go against it but he would be in the wrong for doing so. JTA and the others who are disrespecting the pipe ceremony are essentially engaging in apostasy.

[Gma loves hockey]

If the '69 Pipe ceremony is binding, why doesn't the SR council agree with it?

[Chewey]

Which is why UND needs to violate that state law and retire the name.

And, give even more ammunition to the initiated measure process? As inept as the SBoHE has been for the last several years, I don't think they would go that route. Of course, the SBoHE has had a penchant in this process for surprising with new levels of incompetence and disorganization.

[Chewey]

If the '69 Pipe ceremony is binding, why doesn't the SR council agree with it?

Because a majority (slim majority) is disrespecting their own sacred traditions blinded by their own racism and "payback to the white man" mentality. Moralistically speaking, the Ten Commandments are "binding" but they are not followed and, many times, personal tragedy ensues. My understanding is that those who do not follow the traditions are bringing a curse upon themselves or some sort of bad karma and JTA's life -- particularly recent incidents -- would certain bear that out.

[bigskyvikes]

What you referred to was the procedure for removing an existing full member of the BSC, which requires a unanimous vote of all league presidents. Fullerton alluded to that when talking about removing UND during his press conference, basically saying that it would take less action to cut UND loose than a full member although he never spelled out exactly what that would be.

This is wrong, I watched the interview and he stated that it would take a unanomous (sp) vote to remove them from the league!

[jodcon]

This is wrong, I watched the interview and he stated that it would take a unanomous (sp) vote to remove them from the league!

Are you sure about that? He said it would take a unanimous vote to remove an existing full member from the league, but didn't exactly say what it would take to remove a probationary member. It's possible that it is the same, but usually the term probationary means the governing body has left a window to renig for whatever reason they see fit.

Either way, Fullerton has stated numerous times that a unanimous vote of the presidents would be a foregone conclusion...the ones who didn't care one way or another would vote with the ones who are against allowing admittance, and I don't see any reason to doubt it. It would be foolish for us to think he hasn't spent quite a bit of time the last few months talking to all the presidents about this situation.

[Fetch]

I would not want to be in a conference that thinks our name is racist - obviously they have not made peace or have terrible guilt about the natives near them.

UND has been nothing but proud of the name & respected & helped Native Americans (programs at UND)

& now because of threats from outside that do not understand, some of you want to give up & change

Shameful

[jodcon]

I would not want to be in a conference that thinks our name is racist - obviously they have not made peace or have terrible guilt about the natives near them.

UND has been nothing but proud of the name & respected & helped Native Americans (programs at UND)

& now because of threats from outside that do not understand, some of you want to give up & change

Shameful

Honestly I don't think the Big Skys decision will be based as much on whether they think the name is racist as it will on what the name will mean from a business and image standpoint.

I don't get the feeling that many, if any, of the universities involved feel that UNDs use of the Fighting Sioux nickname is a big deal in itself, but the scheduling problems UND is going to face, the loss of all home playoff games, the ability to recruit and be competitive, and the perception that UND will be a 'black-mark' school because of the nickname is probably going to make admittance into the BSC an iffy deal.

But really, on the list of people/organizations to point fingers at over this issue, the BSC is way down the list. They have been duped more than once since inviting UND/USD and I can't blame them for being very cautious as this crawls toward a conclusion.

[dakotadan]

I would not want to be in a conference that thinks our name is racist

They don't. Fullerton has said multiple times that they don't have an issue with the nickname, they have an issue with UND being under sanctions from the NCAA.

But of course you are going to twist things to fit your point-of-view.

[iramurphy]

I would not want to be in a conference that thinks our name is racist - obviously they have not made peace or have terrible guilt about the natives near them.

UND has been nothing but proud of the name & respected & helped Native Americans (programs at UND)

& now because of threats from outside that do not understand, some of you want to give up & change

Shameful

So I get what the name has done for Native Americans. (Programming, marketing value, etc.). What has the name done for UND???

Over the years unless someone has tried to take it away no one has really paid much attention to the name. We use it as a logo and name. It has cost us a lot of money, heartache and criticism. We have put up with that over the last 45 years. It isn't that those from the outside don't understand, they don't believe us and they don't care. In their world, they don't wish to associate with this particular ethnic group and have the legal authority to dictate that we can't either. I believe that is a biased policy but they don't care about my opinion anymore than you do. Those who could have helped us were too late. Now they are willing to hurt UND athletics to try and recapture what they didn't care enough about to act on when it would have made a difference. You aren't going to be part of the conference the athletes, coaches and UND is. That conference wants us to get our act together before we come on board and that isn't asking too much. Fetch if you have been walikng around in dog !@#$, it isn't unreasonable for your host to expect you to take your shoes off or clean them before you enter their house.

[UNDBIZ]

I'm sure it's not what you meant because most of your posts are great, but comparing having the Sioux moniker to having dog poo on your shoes is a bit harsh Ira. I'd say it's more comparable to having your foot caught in a bear trap

[Fetch]

Yeah come Ira what were you thinking

[The Sicatoka]

Rather than dog poo, how about say you're carrying a bouquet of prairie roses and the owner of the house is allergic to them.

Prairie roses are just fine, it's just that some (the NCAA) can't stand them and don't want them in their house. If you want to come in you have to leave the bouquet outside.

[iramurphy]

I'm sure it's not what you meant because most of your posts are great, but comparing having the Sioux moniker to having dog poo on your shoes is a bit harsh Ira. I'd say it's more comparable to having your foot caught in a bear trap

Dog crap and the name are not related. My point is that the host doesn't want us coming in to their house with something they don't wish to clean up, but having said that, I stand corrected I could have used a better analogy. Thanks for the heads up.

[Fetch]

Ira we need to go have a cold one

[iramurphy]

Ira we need to go have a cold one

Ok Fetch,I'll buy. Would be worth the price of a few of your favorite cold ones to see if you really exist. (don't bring your guns though).

[Fetch]

why would I need them ? ...............

[82SiouxGuy]

Ok Fetch,I'll buy. Would be worth the price of a few of your favorite cold ones to see if you really exist. (don't bring your guns though).

I wouldn't let him bring his 4 legged friend either.

[KSSioux]

I rarely post but have followed this topic for over 30 years. It troubles me to see the banter going back and forth between the nickname supporters and those who want the nickname to go away to "Save UND athletics". Those who think the last two sentences of the NCAA letter does not allow them to tell the venues to ban folks from entering the arena with a Sioux jersey/sweater, or from saying "SIoux" at the end of the national anthem without the threat of forfeiture are the ones with their head in the sand. The NCAA is so disrespectful to UND that they mispelled names in the letter, mispelled North Dakota on the Denver Frozen Four participant shirts (without any apology or replacement), etc. They will do whatever they can to slap down those who will stand up for the proud sobriquet.

I have been to over 23 Frozen Fours, along with other North Dakota NCAA championship events and have never seen anything demeaning in the use of the name or logo. Neither has my wife who is part Native American, and although she did not attend UND she loves to wear the logo proudly. I had decided that I would support the Spirit Lake Tribes efforts, although I did not agree with all their tactics in the law suit or the petition drive. They have far more credibility than our president or athletic director and I pray that their law suit will knock down the NCAA. To those who are in the "Save UND Athletics" crowd and think they are superior to those who are with the Spirit Lake effort I will leave you with this. I think it is bigger to stop the political correctness, maintain our liberties, and keep our freedom of speech. Is that not a bigger goal? Please do not watch the left hand while the right hand is knocking you down.

P.S. for those who are going to trash me for this, forget about it because I will not respond.

[The Sicatoka]

I think it is bigger to stop the political correctness, maintain our liberties, and keep our freedom of speech.

All those are noble, worthy things.

However, UND is not in a position to do any of those against the private (meaning they don't have to follow the First or Fourteenth Amendments) NCAA.

As I've said before, find a way to get the NCAA declared a state actor and UND suddenly has a chance.

Beyond that, UND has to protect UND first. Spirit Lake has to protect Spirit Lake first. Those paths diverge today. If they reconnect later, all the better. But I won't risk UND Athletics for the slim chance of that reconnection.

[Benny Baker]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/231531/group/homepage/

Congrats UND Baseball! Big win over a Big D1 school.

[Fetch]

Sic UND does not have or never has had the will to fight - Kelley & Fasion have done nothing but try to get rid of the name ASAP

[82SiouxGuy]

Sic UND does not have or never has had the will to fight - Kelley & Fasion have done nothing but try to get rid of the name ASAP

The State Board of Higher Education took control of the nickname away from UND administration in 2000. UND and the SBoHE did fight. Maybe you remember the lawsuit. It was in all the newspapers. The settlement was signed in 2007. Kelley and Faison were hired after both of those events. They never had any way to fight for the nickname. Kelley works for the SBoHE and Faison works for Kelley. Neither one was going to go against their boss. That would have been career suicide. The SBoHE education was responsible for everything that happened with the NCAA, not Kelley or Faison. I know that people are looking for someone to hate, but these are not the right options. Kelley and Faison were doing their jobs, as they were instructed to do. That's what employees do, or they get fired.

[Teeder11]

The State Board of Higher Education took control of the nickname away from UND administration in 2000. UND and the SBoHE did fight. Maybe you remember the lawsuit. It was in all the newspapers. The settlement was signed in 2007. Kelley and Faison were hired after both of those events. They never had any way to fight for the nickname. Kelley works for the SBoHE and Faison works for Kelley. Neither one was going to go against their boss. That would have been career suicide. The SBoHE education was responsible for everything that happened with the NCAA, not Kelley or Faison. I know that people are looking for someone to hate, but these are not the right options. Kelley and Faison were doing their jobs, as they were instructed to do. That's what employees do, or they get fired.

You are correct. Some people just need a local scapegoat to quench their ire. The real problem, the NCAA, is too big and too far away for them to lash out against to satisfy their thirst for perceived justice and vindication. So, they hit what they can reach no matter how off target the blame might be. Kelley and Faison have done very little to fight to save the nickname because they understand it would be akin to shooting themselves (the University) in the foot. Even if UND could live with the sanctions as some think we can, and even if the Big Sky would bite the bullet and let UND remain a member despite being on the NCAA !@$! list, the controversies, the protests, un-invites and non-invites, negative press, bad publicity, dirty recruiting tactics by rivals, unfortunate "racist" incidents from opposing fan bases and other distractions aren't going away. Like the Big Sky, Kelley and Faison have nothing against the nickname and logo as a result of political correctness, and if there was a way to keep it without the NCAA's heavy handedness, without the sanctions, without the constant bad press that comes with it, without the negative distractions that it attracts, I am positive that they would be as proud to wear the Fighting Sioux name as Fetch is. See, it's not a "PC thing" for them; it's a "what is best for the students and the University thing" for them, no matter how much their detractors try to assign false ulterior motives and nasty aspersions to them.

[82SiouxGuy]

You are correct. Some people just need a local scapegoat to quench their ire. The real problem, the NCAA, is too big and too far away for them to lash out against to satisfy their thirst for perceived justice and vindication. So, they hit what they can reach no matter how off target the blame might be. Kelley and Faison have done very little to fight to save the nickname because they understand it would be akin to shooting themselves (the University) in the foot. Even if UND could live with the sanctions as some think we can, and even if the Big Sky would bite the bullet and let UND remain a member despite being on the NCAA !@$! list, the controversies, the protests, un-invites and non-invites, negative press, bad publicity, dirty recruiting tactics by rivals, unfortunate "racist" incidents from opposing fan bases and other distractions aren't going away. Like the Big Sky, Kelley and Faison have nothing against the nickname and logo as a result of political correctness, and if there was a way to keep it without the NCAA's heavy handedness, without the sanctions, without the constant bad press that comes with it, without the negative distractions that it attracts, I am positive that they would be as proud to wear the Fighting Sioux name as Fetch is. See, it's not a "PC thing" for them; it's a "what is best for the students and the University thing" for them, no matter how much their detractors try to assign false ulterior motives and nasty aspersions to them.

Another big problem is that so many people weren't paying attention along the way. They see people threatening to take away the name and they blame the people that they believe are in charge of the situation. They don't know the steps that have happened along the way, they don't know that this situation didn't just happen in the last year, and most of them have never met any of the people involved. It becomes a mob mentality to attack whoever is responsible, at least in their minds.