coaches

[Irish]

I know there are people on here who disagree about whether certain coaches should be back but I really don't recall a post from anyone lowering the expectations of the program.

One thing about college football is that at the end of the season there are some pretty good black and white indicators about how the season went - won-lost record, playoff success, success compared to our rivals. You do not need to be a college coach or former player to have a pretty good idea of the season (like some seem to think here). I would love for some of the status quo defenders to state plainly what should be a reasonable expectation for this program for the next 3-4 years. How can we tell if our program is successful or not. I don't know what business you are in, but every job I know has specific performance expectations and consequences if they aren't met.

[FargoBison]

I just cannot buy into the premise that what is written here has any impact on recruiting whatsoever.

It doesn't, NDSU's best recruiting class came in our 3-8 season and what has been posted here is pretty tame compared to what was going on at Bisonville at that time.

[BigGame]

I just cannot buy into the premise that what is written here has any impact on recruiting whatsoever.

I can buy into it to a certain extent because you and I don't really know what is important to each individual. I would say that most of the time what is said here has little or no effect on recruiting but if we even lose one recruit due to the negativity on the board it is to many. These decisions are often very difficult for a player to make and I would rather not be part of the problem in pushing a student athlete to choose another University.

[BigGame]

Questionning whether a particular individual is the long-term solution is not "calling for people's jobs and livelihoods in.....a cavalier manner". It is looking out for the long-term health and vitality of the program. No matter what we all do for a living, we are always under some kind of informal evaluation process. I don't mean the formal evals we get on a 6 and/or 12 month basis, but the day-to-day, week-to-week type of evaluation as we do our jobs.

For Mussman and his staff, that means people watching and/or listening to games, tracking the progress of recruits and how they are producing and/or not producing, seeing how the team responds to adversity and setbacks, how competitive the team is against certain programs in certain situations and so on. While this is not the NFL, these coaches are paid professionals and should be able to handle criticism that inevitably comes from the fans, the media, the boosters, ect. They know this goes with the territory of being a coach at the college level and I don't think they take it personally. Why some people on here take it personally, I don't know. By the way, comparing our jobs to college coaches is pure apples and oranges.

The point some people on here don't get is that what happens now will affect what happens with the program in the future. There is a big picture that not everyone is seeing. If we dig a huge hole for the program and it has to be rebuilt piece by piece, get ready for a repeat of the late 80's to early 90's as Roger Thomas and his staff struggled to build a contender with a national power just 80 miles away. It wasn't fun and I don't want to relive it if it can be helped. And there are some serious, fair questions as to whether this program is in the right hands. I think it will take a couple of more years to find out. But I must say I have some nagging doubts as to whether this staff will get it done.

And if you don't think this is the proper forum to talk about this, go talk to the mods and get it banned from here. Otherwise, stop scolding and preaching to the rest of us.

Would you really like it if someone or many someones who only watched you work a couple times a year was able to evaluate you in your job? They wouldn't have a very accurate perspective of what it is you are doing and working to improve, but they should all be able to spout off about how you suck and should be fired. I think everytime I get poor service at a restaurant from now on I will demand that the server be fired to the restaurant and it's managers before I leave.

[Oxbow6]

One thing about college football is that at the end of the season there are some pretty good black and white indicators about how the season went - won-lost record, playoff success, success compared to our rivals. You do not need to be a college coach or former player to have a pretty good idea of the season (like some seem to think here). I would love for some of the status quo defenders to state plainly what should be a reasonable expectation for this program for the next 3-4 years. How can we tell if our program is successful or not. I don't know what business you are in, but every job I know has specific performance expectations and consequences if they aren't met.

All of this^^^^^^.

Nicely stated.

Let's say UND goes either 7-4 and/or 8-3 in each of the next 2 years and doesn't make the playoffs either year, is Muss retained with another contract extention?

[darell1976]

It doesn't, NDSU's best recruiting class came in our 3-8 season and what has been posted here is pretty tame compared to what was going on at Bisonville at that time.

UND was 3-8 in 2010 even losing to NAIA Sioux Falls, people screamed for Mussman's head did recruits shy away from UND? I don't think so. The Class of 2011 is either true juniors this coming year (2013) or a redshirted sophomore. Yes it takes more than a game or a season to ask for a coach to get canned. Muss is on his 6th season coming up. His record against DI opponents are average at best maybe below average. A GWFC title, a loss to a Sub DI team, and that is a resume that doesn't really scream out "come to UND". Especially with the big giant of the FCS 80 miles to the south.

[Sioux_FF]

Based on the ducky and bunny BS I am reading on here, we should just join the non-scholarship Pioneer League for football. Then we won't have to worry about getting to the playoffs and winning national titles anymore. Maybe we'll develop a kick-butt rivalry wtih Valparaiso. THAT will get the Alerus Center rocking (not).

If this was men's hockey, the tone of the conversation would be much, much different. Flame away, but those are the facts.

In our first year in an elite FCS conference we went 3-5 against the BSC (or 4-5 if you count the Portland non-conference win) Our 5 losses included 3 teams at 7-1 that combined for an overall record of 31-9. We didn't get the easy wins we probably could have over the 2 bottom teams if the schedule had been nicer. Not exactly great, but certainly not the end of the world. That's just the reality of it. We're aren't discussing our 5th or 10th year in the BSC without making the playoffs....it was Year 1!

Your signature includes the Cary Eades quote about National titles....... well, the UND football team has a more recent National title than the hockey team. also a reality. We can all expect or demand a win, but the reality is what is done on the field.

Like stated above, patience.

[fightingsioux4life]

Would you really like it if someone or many someones who only watched you work a couple times a year was able to evaluate you in your job? They wouldn't have a very accurate perspective of what it is you are doing and working to improve, but they should all be able to spout off about how you suck and should be fired. I think everytime I get poor service at a restaurant from now on I will demand that the server be fired to the restaurant and it's managers before I leave.

Gross exaggerations, that's what you come back with? Okay, whatever.

[fightingsioux4life]

In our first year in an elite FCS conference we went 3-5 against the BSC (or 4-5 if you count the Portland non-conference win) Our 5 losses included 3 teams at 7-1 that combined for an overall record of 31-9. We didn't get the easy wins we probably could have over the 2 bottom teams if the schedule had been nicer. Not exactly great, but certainly not the end of the world. That's just the reality of it. We're aren't discussing our 5th or 10th year in the BSC without making the playoffs....it was Year 1!

Your signature includes the Cary Eades quote about National titles....... well, the UND football team has a more recent National title than the hockey team. also a reality. We can all expect or demand a win, but the reality is what is done on the field.

Like stated above, patience.

I have stated over and over that I think a couple of more years is needed to determine if Mussman and company has the program on the right direction. After that, I think we'll know if all these recruiting "chest bumps" are warrented.

[homer]

One thing about college football is that at the end of the season there are some pretty good black and white indicators about how the season went - won-lost record, playoff success, success compared to our rivals. You do not need to be a college coach or former player to have a pretty good idea of the season (like some seem to think here). I would love for some of the status quo defenders to state plainly what should be a reasonable expectation for this program for the next 3-4 years. How can we tell if our program is successful or not. I don't know what business you are in, but every job I know has specific performance expectations and consequences if they aren't met.

Fair question- My expectation for every year is for the team to 1) win the conference 2) make the playoffs 3) win a Nat'l championship. Those have never changed. Are all of those reasonable/realistic? I as a fan like to think, especially #2 on a yearly basis. Right now though I do take into consideration that one year ago I was reading letters/e-mails from people I have a lot of respect for (Lennon, etc.) that the nickname and being in conference limbo was hurting recruiting. It was the only reason I was willing to accept letting the nickname go. I'm willing to give the current staff another year or two to buid a team without that cloud hanging over thier heads. My expectations though do not change from one year to the next accept I exect to see improvement next year on both sides of the ball.

It ok for everyone to have thier opinion on this, I just don't agree with those that say if we stick with this coaching staff, we are accepting being average. This coaching staff has had to deal with a ton of things out of thier control the last few years and while it is what they signed up for, in my mind they deserve an extra year for having to put up with it. I have confidence they will right the ship.

Too answer your last question- my job too is very much based on performance so I do understand that part of it. I also know that the last few years I have been able to show up to my office or get on a plane and know exactly where I will be that day or the next. It hasn't been a guessing game or an ongoing circus that maybe I'll be here, maybe I won't. Maybe I'll be in marketing for this product, maybe I won't. My product might have extra money put on it, maybe it won't. If that was the case it would make things pretty frustrating.

[Irish]

Fair question- My expectation for every year is for the team to 1) win the conference 2) make the playoffs 3) win a Nat'l championship. Those have never changed. Are all of those reasonable/realistic? I as a fan like to think, especially #2 on a yearly basis. Right now though I do take into consideration that one year ago I was reading letters/e-mails from people I have a lot of respect for (Lennon, etc.) that the nickname and being in conference limbo was hurting recruiting. It was the only reason I was willing to accept letting the nickname go. I'm willing to give the current staff another year or two to buid a team without that cloud hanging over thier heads. My expectations though do not change from one year to the next accept I exect to see improvement next year on both sides of the ball.

It ok for everyone to have thier opinion on this, I just don't agree with those that say if we stick with this coaching staff, we are accepting being average. This coaching staff has had to deal with a ton of things out of thier control the last few years and while it is what they signed up for, in my mind they deserve an extra year for having to put up with it. I have confidence they will right the ship.

Too answer your last question- my job too is very much based on performance so I do understand that part of it. I also know that the last few years I have been able to show up to my office or get on a plane and know exactly where I will be that day or the next. It hasn't been a guessing game or an ongoing circus that maybe I'll be here, maybe I won't. Maybe I'll be in marketing for this product, maybe I won't. My product might have extra money put on it, maybe it won't. If that was the case it would make things pretty frustrating.

Fair enough - I have similar expectations - I think you place way more emphasis on our perceived recruiting handicaps than I, but it's a subjective call. I think it's agreed that Muss will get another couple of years. I hope things turn around, but am kind of worried that they won't. In addition to our won-lost record, I think part of the frustration on this board stems from the type of play we watched. It has been a long time since I have seen a Sioux team get absolutely physically bullied by teams in our own division. Doggone it - that's not what I think of when I think of "Sioux" football. Add the recent success of the team to our south and it makes for a tough year. I hope we return to our winning ways soon.

[homer]

Fair enough - I have similar expectations - I think you place way more emphasis on our perceived recruiting handicaps than I, but it's a subjective call. I think it's agreed that Muss will get another couple of years. I hope things turn around, but am kind of worried that they won't. In addition to our won-lost record, I think part of the frustration on this board stems from the type of play we watched. It has been a long time since I have seen a Sioux team get absolutely physically bullied by teams in our own division. Doggone it - that's not what I think of when I think of "Sioux" football. Add the recent success of the team to our south and it makes for a tough year. I hope we return to our winning ways soon.

This I 100% agree with. I was disappointed last year when I heard guys like McGill went home for the summer. Upperclassmen need to be leaders and the coaches need to "encourage" everyone to commit to this program year round.

[bincitysioux]

I don't feel that I've lowered my expectations, rather I feel I am able to look at the situation objectively and realistically. I was quite disappointed at how the 2012 season unfolded. I thought the team would minimally be a 6 win team, likely be a 7 win team, and best-case-scenario be an 8 win team.

With a swiss cheese defense, a freshman quarterback, and a largely ineffective running game, I'm afraid that 7 wins next season would be quite a feat. Do I expect more from this program? Yes. But that is what I see right now.

I would love for some of the status quo defenders to state plainly what should be a reasonable expectation for this program for the next 3-4 years.

Personally, I would be very disappointed if 3 to 4 years from now we are not winning playoff games.

Let's say UND goes either 7-4 and/or 8-3 in each of the next 2 years and doesn't make the playoffs either year, is Muss retained with another contract extention?

7-4................ probably

8-3.................absolutely

[geaux_sioux]

Remember how much things can change year to year. 2011 had a great run defense and a horrible offense. 2012 saw a high flying offense and the worst defense ever. I'm sure next year the team will look very different in a good way on defense and in the trenches in general.

[Hawkster]

I don't feel that I've lowered my expectations, rather I feel I am able to look at the situation objectively and realistically. I was quite disappointed at how the 2012 season unfolded. I thought the team would minimally be a 6 win team, likely be a 7 win team, and best-case-scenario be an 8 win team.

With a swiss cheese defense, a freshman quarterback, and a largely ineffective running game, I'm afraid that 7 wins next season would be quite a feat. Do I expect more from this program? Yes. But that is what I see right now.

Personally, I would be very disappointed if 3 to 4 years from now we are not winning playoff games.

7-4................ probably

8-3.................absolutely

All through the transition we heard that things will get better once the transition is over and we are in the BSC. I got jumped on earlier for calling 2012 an epic failure, but I still feel that's what it was. We only had 4 D1 wins and without major, major changes next year will be similar. I'm not saying we have to dump all the coaches, but those coaches are going to have to use a different strategy.

If we don't make the playoffs next year, I really think heads need to roll. Chest bumps aren't going to cut it, we need results.

[Oxbow6]

Bottom line if the AC wins a 2nd consecutive Natty Muss leash will get even shorter. Another 5-6 or 6-5 season next year won't cut it for UND. At some point, even though we aren't playing rivals, the gap between the 2 programs has to start to close. And IMO that is going to require UND to step it up as I don't see SU taking major steps backwards any time soon.

[southpaw]

All through the transition we heard that things will get better once the transition is over and we are in the BSC. I got jumped on earlier for calling 2012 an epic failure, but I still feel that's what it was. We only had 4 D1 wins and without major, major changes next year will be similar. I'm not saying we have to dump all the coaches, but those coaches are going to have to use a different strategy.

If we don't make the playoffs next year, I really think heads need to roll. Chest bumps aren't going to cut it, we need results.

The seniors recruited for the 2012 team joined UND knowing they only had one year to make the playoffs. Next year's team will have had two chances and so on. Yes, we are out of the transition but it's going to take a few years for us to have athletes who joined UND with the chance to make the playoffs every single year. I have faith that the skill level of the team will continue to grow. UND has picked up some bigger recruits the past few years now that those athletes are able to compete for the playoffs all four years.

[BigGame]

Gross exaggerations, that's what you come back with? Okay, whatever.

I get that comparison isn't comparing the exact same situation but it is still foolish for someone outside of the personnel within UND athletics that have direct knowledge of the whole story to call for someone's job. If we had a bunch of conduct issues and we were really struggling on the field I would bet the staff would be changed. As far as I can tell Muss and company have been good at dealing with issues that arise and haven't let some of the bad apples get away with things and influence the team in a negative way. I understand the defense was bad this year, but I know the staff really focused on improving the passing game and it was pretty dang good this season. Yes the staff has work to do but I think they have earned the chanced to work and make adjustments without people being all over them and any mistake they make. Did people really expect us to walk into the Big Sky and dominate from the outset? Do I agree with every call made? No, but it's hard for me to criticize to much when I wasn't the one in the situation. It's really easy to complain and say what if after the fact and I am guilty of this all the time but I try not to take it to the extreme some posters feel are OK with.

[zonadub]

If Faison's oversight of the [sarcasm] stellar [/sarcasm] New Mexico State football program is a clue to how he operates and what his priorities are: status quo - we are here. The decisions he makes are much more important than those of us on a fan board. BB Coach Jones' job doesn't appear to be in danger, either.

That said, one reservation about the move to D-1 is the loss of the student part of student-athlete. Can a successful program be run with upstanding young men and women? It's tough enough for young people to stay out of trouble at their age, but even harder when they have a sense of entitlement. For this reason, Mussman has a difficult task, because it seems that, on his teams, off field character also counts. I pledge to attempt to back off of my criticisms of Mussman and basing it solely on a won-loss record. I appreciate that his leadership has kept the proper perspective in developing young men that UND can be proud to send out to the world.

[BigGame]

Bottom line if the AC wins a 2nd consecutive Natty Muss leash will get even shorter. Another 5-6 or 6-5 season next year won't cut it for UND. At some point, even though we aren't playing rivals, the gap between the 2 programs has to start to close. And IMO that is going to require UND to step it up as I don't see SU taking major steps backwards any time soon.

Not really sure how the Bison being good makes Muss a bad coach but the real issue and why we have gotten behind SU stems back to when they made the jump to FCS and we waited. That decision looked good at the time but in hindsight it feels like UND made a big mistake.

[JohnboyND7]

It doesn't, NDSU's best recruiting class came in our 3-8 season and what has been posted here is pretty tame compared to what was going on at Bisonville at that time.

True, but with different schools you never know how things work.

Would you really like it if someone or many someones who only watched you work a couple times a year was able to evaluate you in your job? They wouldn't have a very accurate perspective of what it is you are doing and working to improve, but they should all be able to spout off about how you suck and should be fired. I think everytime I get poor service at a restaurant from now on I will demand that the server be fired to the restaurant and it's managers before I leave.

These guys took a job that includes the public having a good view of what you are doing. I have a job at a bank, this bank does not have a great reputation. My dad has mentioned that to me many times that the place I work has had financial troubles. Should I blow up on him for not knowing every little detail of the bank? Nope. The bank has struggled. This is obvious to anyone. UND's football team has struggled lately. This is obvious to anyone.

All of this^^^^^^.

Nicely stated.

Let's say UND goes either 7-4 and/or 8-3 in each of the next 2 years and doesn't make the playoffs either year, is Muss retained with another contract extention?

I think he does. Unless the alumni throw a fit.

In our first year in an elite FCS conference we went 3-5 against the BSC (or 4-5 if you count the Portland non-conference win) Our 5 losses included 3 teams at 7-1 that combined for an overall record of 31-9.

2 of those losses against Big Sky teams were also complete buttwhoopings by two teams who were good, and one regular loss(4th quarter meltdown by looks of it?) to Cal Poly. Not something to be pleased about.

I'm going to get bashed I'm sure(being an NDSU fan and all), but UND has some work to do. I'm sure it will be fine at some point. Even if it is 5-10 years away

[gfhockey]

what bank? bank forward?

[bincitysioux]

If Faison's oversight of the [sarcasm] stellar [/sarcasm] New Mexico State football program is a clue to how he operates and what his priorities are: status quo - we are here. The decisions he makes are much more important than those of us on a fan board. BB Coach Jones' job doesn't appear to be in danger, either.

New Mexico St. has never really been a world-beater in football though, with or without Faison. I don't really see the correlation. New Mexico State's football record during Faison's 6 years as A.D. was 29-40. In the 6 years prior to his tenure they were 18-48. In the 6 seasons after he left the A.D. post, they went 16-58. But, again, he wasn't on the Aggie coaching staff or the active player roster, nor does he participate in either of those roles for North Dakota.

[Teeder11]

Not really sure how the Bison being good makes Muss a bad coach but the real issue and why we have gotten behind SU stems back to when they made the jump to FCS and we waited. That decision looked good at the time but in hindsight it feels like UND made a big mistake.

I think it's been well documented in other places that Kupchella was reluctant to pull the trigger on D-1 at the same time as Chapman because UND simlply could not afford it at the time without raping academics and other programs. Actually, SU could not afford it either, but that school went for it anyway, and Chapman and VP of Acad. Affairs Craig Schnell began the process of funneling funds away from academics and faculty pay increases toward athletics and the pursuit to take SU to "the next level." These moves forced SU to go with larger class sizes, taught by GAs and entry level instructors lured (many grad-level international students) to the university with tuition waivers. It was for these reasons (and the Presidents house debacle and other end-runs) that Chapman was run out of town later.

The true reason UND finally bit the bullet and moved its athletics program to all D1(UND has been D1 for decades in hockey) when it did had everything to do with the collapse of the old NCC and the bleak future that presented itself at the time.

So SU may look all rosy now from a sports perspective, like it made the move when the time was right. Truth is that they made the move at the expense of the rest of the institution, and those hens have and are still coming back to roost now, evidenced by some of the funding woes that Breciani and other SU apologists are crying to state lawmakers about all the time now. They blame unfair funding practices by the state favor UND, but they only need to look back a few years to what Uncle Joe, Craig Schnell, et.al. did to find the true root cause of their financial straits.

[JohnboyND7]

what bank? bank forward?

I won't say the bank. I live in Fargo. Those in the banking game have a pretty solid shot at figuring it out. I believe its in the past, just like UND's football woes theoretically should be at some point.