Facilities Master Plan

[MoSiouxFan]

8 hours ago, nodak651 said:

 

It might please you to learn that the university gutted and completely renovated the old presidents house.

100% agree with your point about modern architecture.  Not a fan the look of the new dorms (or memorial village) have.  At all.  Also, if they were planning to tear down Walsh and Squires, etc. I really wish they would have located the new dorms there instead of adding on to the Wilki complex.  Locating students, especially freshman, as close as possible to central campus should be a no brainer.  That extra walking distance makes a big difference when it's negative 20 windchill in the winter.  Walks I took from Brannon took forever even on a good day.  Whole I'm ranting, I've got to add that the med school location is questionable given that it could have built on University directly to the west of the new dorms.

That said, I think overall th e school has done a great job and the former presidents did a great job in positioning the university for the future.  I think they did a great job with the designs of the new business school and memorial union, as well.  

What years were you in Brannon?  We might have crossed paths.

[nodak651]

6 hours ago, MoSiouxFan said:

What years were you in Brannon?  We might have crossed paths.

I was there 08-09.  Accidently set off the fire alarm the second night 

[MoSiouxFan]

16 minutes ago, nodak651 said:

I was there 08-09.  Accidently set off the fire alarm the second night 

Nope, unfortunately our paths didn't cross.  I predated you by over 30 years.  My arrival wasn't as auspicious as yours, though.

[61hawk]

11 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

And yet you chose a nom de plume with "hawk" in it ... curious. 

And it has absolutely nothing to do with the current mascot. 

[61hawk]

11 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

I'll take Schafer and Kennedy and a half billion in deferred maintenance off the books and a cleaner, brighter looking campus, thank you.

One alternative is be in NDSU's position right now with budget struggles. One person I chat with (they're on the 'SU campus every day) is frankly jealous; quoting, "We need our Schafer and Kennedy," which they do.

However, I will admit some, mainly those with primarily academic world experience, didn't like Schafer and Kennedy. Why? Because they behaved like business owners and financial officers, not wistful thought-keepers of glorious by-gone days of some building that is due for condemnation. 

If NDSU really wanted Schafer or Kennedy, I'm sure either would jump at the chance.  It sounds like the one person you talked to may be in the minority on these two leading the university.  I realize that to you Schafer and Kennedy could walk into any Ivy League President's office, since you seem to think they walk on water.  Isn't it interesting that top research universities tend to keep their historic buildings and UND under the watch of the honerable Schafer and Kennedy decided it was best to demolish and rebuild.  If they were in such demand why aren't they leading any university these days?  Did Kennedy even make it two years before the Colorado Board of Trustees told his to GTFO?

 

[61hawk]

11 hours ago, GeauxSioux said:

Wasn’t Vanderbilt one of the examples of schools that would just renovate and not demo to make way for the new? 
Vanderbilt announces demolition of final Carmichael Towers buildings to continue residential colleges progress

I must say that the new looks much better than the old in this case. 

The Carmichael Towers were something looked like Chicago housing projects.  They made it 55 years from construction to demolition.  There is nothing special or historic about either tower.  To be concerned about them would be like being concerned about the married housing apartments at UND that were torn down in the 1980's and 1990's.  Every campus has something on campus that doesn't match and has no historic value, I'd even go as far to say the entire Gamble Hall building at UND fits that comment... even though I spent most of my classroom time in that building.  There is nothing special about the architecture or history of the university in that building.  My favorites are the raw poured concrete exterior buildings you see on many campuses, it's as if the architect was told to cut construction costs by 50%.

If you want to see how things are done right, take a look at West Point's renovation projects. 

https://www.westpoint.edu/USMA-2035/academic-infrastructure/academic-building-upgrade-program

[GeauxSioux]

35 minutes ago, 61hawk said:

The Carmichael Towers were something looked like Chicago housing projects.  They made it 55 years from construction to demolition.  There is nothing special or historic about either tower.  To be concerned about them would be like being concerned about the married housing apartments at UND that were torn down in the 1980's and 1990's.  Every campus has something on campus that doesn't match and has no historic value, I'd even go as far to say the entire Gamble Hall building at UND fits that comment... even though I spent most of my classroom time in that building.  There is nothing special about the architecture or history of the university in that building.  My favorites are the raw poured concrete exterior buildings you see on many campuses, it's as if the architect was told to cut construction costs by 50%.

If you want to see how things are done right, take a look at West Point's renovation projects. 

https://www.westpoint.edu/USMA-2035/academic-infrastructure/academic-building-upgrade-program

How about Yale.  Weren't they also mentioned as a school that would not allow such things to happen.  You point at West Point as "how things are done right".  UND is renovating Merrifield Hall.  Are they doing it "wrong".  Certain buildings allow for renovation and others don't.  Decisions are made based on many factors.  I don't think you or I have the information that incorporated the deciding factors at UND to make a decision on Hyslop.  I would love to see the venue remain, but understand if that is not possible and life will go on.  UND will use that land for something that fits with a future vision for the campus.

[UND1983]

21 hours ago, 61hawk said:

So that's your professional, engineering/architectural opinion?

All of the above big shooter

[61hawk]

1 hour ago, GeauxSioux said:

How about Yale.  Weren't they also mentioned as a school that would not allow such things to happen.  You point at West Point as "how things are done right".  UND is renovating Merrifield Hall.  Are they doing it "wrong".  Certain buildings allow for renovation and others don't.  Decisions are made based on many factors.  I don't think you or I have the information that incorporated the deciding factors at UND to make a decision on Hyslop.  I would love to see the venue remain, but understand if that is not possible and life will go on.  UND will use that land for something that fits with a future vision for the campus.

Every campus has good and bad buildings... it just seems like UND feels they have more bad buildings than good buildings and demolition is the only answer.  My comments aren't going to change anybodies minds, but doesn't mean I can't disagree with the plan.  Visit Yale some day and walk through their buildings, many interiors will surprise you especially when you look at the exterior and expect more of the same inside.

[61hawk]

16 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

All of the above big shooter

An architect and an engineer, if you'd have taken up marine biology instead of engineering you'd be a regular George Castansa.

[The Sicatoka]

13 hours ago, 61hawk said:

If NDSU really wanted Schafer or Kennedy, I'm sure either would jump at the chance.  It sounds like the one person you talked to may be in the minority on these two leading the university.  I realize that to you Schafer and Kennedy could walk into any Ivy League President's office, since you seem to think they walk on water.

Now you seem to claim to be a mind reader too.

I know what Schafer and Kennedy did for UND and I can see it and I agree with it. YMMV. 

Schafer is 77 and retired; pretty sure I saw him in the summer in the town his dad built. Kennedy is running part of a DC think-tank on international trade. 

[61hawk]

40 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Now you seem to claim to be a mind reader too.

I know what Schafer and Kennedy did for UND and I can see it and I agree with it. YMMV. 

Schafer is 77 and retired; pretty sure I saw him in the summer in the town his dad built. Kennedy is running part of a DC think-tank on international trade. 

You sure are good at categorizing people, even though you're again wrong.

I think you're giving Schafer a little too much credit considering he was at UND for what... 6 months.  He was there on an interim basis, he was on a leash held by the Board of Trustees, he was there to put out fires that reached his office and to give the commencement speech in May.  Mark Kennedy was there for two years before announcing his resignation, he put his own interests above those of the university and only used UND as a stepping stone for a job at a larger university.  He went onto the University of Colorado where he accomplished little, his major accomplishments were to hire a diversity officer (which every university in the country was doing at the time) and to move to online learning because of COVID (which every university in the country was doing at the time).  Yes Mark Kennedy is a pioneer in the world of higher education!!!   Prove me wrong instead of being a cheerleader for both of these "leaders".

[The Sicatoka]

3 minutes ago, 61hawk said:

You sure are good at categorizing people, even though you're again wrong.

I think you're giving Schafer a little too much credit considering he was at UND for what... 6 months.  He was there on an interim basis, he was on a leash held by the Board of Trustees, he was there to put out fires that reached his office and to give the commencement speech in May.  Mark Kennedy was there for two years before announcing his resignation, he put his own interests above those of the university and only used UND as a stepping stone for a job at a larger university.  He went onto the University of Colorado where he failed miserably, his major accomplishments were to hire a diversity officer (which every university in the country was doing at the time) and to move to online learning because of COVID (which every university in the country was doing at the time).  Yes Mark Kennedy is a pioneer in the world of higher education!!!   Prove me wrong instead of being a cheerleader for both of these "leaders".

You claimed to know my thoughts: mind reader. That's an observation. 

UND has no "Board of Trustees". 

I can see the positive results of Schafer and Kennedy's time. I had a source in 300 Twamley during that time as well. 

And I have to do nothing for you. 

[61hawk]

1 minute ago, The Sicatoka said:

You claimed to know my thoughts: mind reader. That's an observation. 

UND has no "Board of Trustees". 

I can see the positive results of Schafer and Kennedy's time. I had a source in 300 Twamley during that time as well. 

And I have to do nothing for you. 

Okay the North Dakota University System... same thing as a Board of Trustees.  Most universities I work with report to a BOT, not a state-wide board.  If only you knew the embarrassment I am feeling, it's almost as bad as a spelling or grammatical error in a forum post.  From now I'll just use "the Board" to reduce confusion.

What did Schafer do at UND that wasn't already in place on Day One of him stepping foot on campus?  Can you give me at least one example just to satisfy my curiosity?  True, you don't have to do anything for me, I'm just wondering if you actually have anything, or if this is just your way of bluffing.  Schafer signed off on the removal of "Fighting Sioux" and move to "Fighting Hawks", but that process took a little longer than the six months he was there.  I have a close friend who was on that name change committee, and let her know how F'd up it was from the day she let me know she had been appointed to the last time I talked to her around Christmas.  It sounds like you had an inside source at the workings of UND, I too have a source in the administrative buildings at universities such as Yale, Vanderbilt, Duke, University of Florida/South Carolina down to several community colleges you've never heard of, that doesn't mean I have first hand knowledge of what the President is doing at any of those locations.

[The Sicatoka]

It appears by your writings you may have a hard spot with Schafer as he did the last step in the name change process. Someone had to. 

"Initiated" ... as in wasn't in place before he arrived. And it's not my word, it's ND OMB's. 

Quote

In January 2016 a budget reshaping process was initiated under Interim President Ed Schafer to put in place permanent (base) changes to provide a sustainable budget for UND for the future. This included not only the items listed above, but also reallocating funds towards strategic priorities. Although reductions were made, this provided the opportunity for reinvestment. In addition, the first 2015-17 general fund allotment was announced in February 2016, which added yet another complexity. This process continued through spring 2016 and resulted in $4.4 million one-time and $17.1 million base adjustments for a total of $21.5 million changes across all sources of funds

Source: https://www.omb.nd.gov/sites/www/files/documents/financial-transparency/state-budgets/2017-19-detail-book/00230/MVB22017R0200230.pdf

[geaux_sioux]

Hand the blank check to the university and all your dreams will come true.

[61hawk]

8 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

It appears by your writings you may have a hard spot with Schafer as he did the last step in the name change process. Someone had to. 

"Initiated" ... as in wasn't in place before he arrived. And it's not my word, it's ND OMB's. 

Source: https://www.omb.nd.gov/sites/www/files/documents/financial-transparency/state-budgets/2017-19-detail-book/00230/MVB22017R0200230.pdf

Okay, so what Schafer did is what every President should have done in office.  Schafer's highpoint in his short tenure was to do his job correctly.  Face it, UND hasn't had a decent president since Thomas Clifford.

[Nodak78]

25 minutes ago, 61hawk said:

Okay, so what Schafer did is what every President should have done in office.  Schafer's highpoint in his short tenure was to do his job correctly.  Face it, UND hasn't had a decent president since Thomas Clifford.

Yes a bunch of academic presidents afraid of their shadow.  Schafer just did it in 6 months.  It's called leadership.  My impress of of of you is a.

 

[ChrisUND1]

On 10/9/2023 at 8:02 AM, The Sicatoka said:

Hyslop has more asbestos than a WWII battleship engine room. And the pool is leaking. 

Walsh was in rough shape in the late 1980s. (I was an RA there for more than a day we'll say; I saw parts or Walsh that still give me nightmares.) Bek and Hancock were outdated. Squires was vintage between the east and west halves of Walsh. It was showing age in the late 1980s also. West and McVey needed placing. About all of housing, kids today do not want stucco walls and asbestos tile floors. 

Memorial Stadium should've been condemned and thankfully has come down for MVI, which ushers in MVII and Albrecht Field. 

And pick your other eyesore: married housing west of West; Strinden Center; Conference Center. All needed a date with a D9 and got it. 

I'm sure some of the decisions are based on compressions, footings, and water table. Many building that have come down were vintage 1960s and early 1970s when construction technique was lacking and energy efficiency was unheard of. 

I'm not sure what to say about the CF Auditorium beyond replace the (dated) red velvet or replace the facility. 

Merrifield and Twamley are getting renovated. 

UND had half a billion, yes, $500,000,000.00, in deferred maintenance on the books when Ed Schafer arrived. He went with reality and not nostalgia. Kennedy finished the task. 

University Ave looks different today to me.

Different but better. 

 

Thank you for taking the time to write this.  Agree 100%. I was in many of those buildings 25 years ago and they stunk (literally), heat wasn’t great, AC was non existent…etc. etc. etc.  

[GeauxSioux]

1 hour ago, 61hawk said:

Okay, so what Schafer did is what every President should have done in office.  Schafer's highpoint in his short tenure was to do his job correctly.  Face it, UND hasn't had a decent president since Thomas Clifford.

I am beginning to think that you are here only to argue.  You asked Sica to provide one example of something Schafer did during his short tenure.  Sica obliged and provided documentation of Schafer putting budgeting together.  You come back with a BS comment. 

You stated that Yale, Harvard, Vanderbilt... wouldn't tear down buildings to make way for new.  "You would have a fight on your hands".  They would remodel instead.  I provided a link to where Vandy was tearing down housing to build new, which you didn't accept because what they tore down was ugly. I provided a link to where Yale was involved in a controversy from outside of Yale for tearing down historic buildings. You backpedaled that all campuses have good and bad buildings. 

It doesn't really sound like you contribute anything positive to this forum.  Are you here just to lob grenades and spout off about your contacts at major universities?

[61hawk]

2 hours ago, Nodak78 said:

Yes a bunch of academic presidents afraid of their shadow.  Schafer just did it in 6 months.  It's called leadership.  My impress of of of you is a.

 

Does the picture of you have guy on the left turned around and facing the other direction?

[61hawk]

1 hour ago, GeauxSioux said:

It doesn't really sound like you contribute anything positive to this forum.  Are you here just to lob grenades and spout off about your contacts at major universities?

Sorry, I'm not much of a cheerleader or sunshine pumper as some here.  Would it help if I presented my credentials to help back up my concern about the future of Hyslop?  I do have a 4th if needed, I just don't remember where it is.

[61hawk]

2 hours ago, GeauxSioux said:

I am beginning to think that you are here only to argue.  You asked Sica to provide one example of something Schafer did during his short tenure.  Sica obliged and provided documentation of Schafer putting budgeting together.  You come back with a BS comment. 

You stated that Yale, Harvard, Vanderbilt... wouldn't tear down buildings to make way for new.  "You would have a fight on your hands".  They would remodel instead.  I provided a link to where Vandy was tearing down housing to build new, which you didn't accept because what they tore down was ugly. I provided a link to where Yale was involved in a controversy from outside of Yale for tearing down historic buildings. You backpedaled that all campuses have good and bad buildings. 

It doesn't really sound like you contribute anything positive to this forum.  Are you here just to lob grenades and spout off about your contacts at major universities?

Ha!!!  You take things way too literally.  I also said that there are buildings on every campus that hold little to no historic value to the of the architectural value to the historic portion of the campus.  On most old campuses those buildings of historic value are in the center of the campus and surround a horseshoe or square.  Many buildings built in the 1960's - 1990's were little more than generic brick boxes with no redeeming features.  The Walsh quad has historic value, the cinder block married housing buildings on the west end of campus that have been torn down did not.  Hyslop has historic value, the science building west of Hyslop does not.  The Chester Fritz auditorium as much as I don't like the look does have historic value, the Fine Arts building across the coulee not so much... actually most of campus west of the English Coulee has no historic or architectural value.  The old President's ranch style house, nope.  Just my opinion.  As much history as the old hockey arena had, it was a seriously ugly building that I still hated to see it go but what else could it have been used for?  Storage???  Gamble Hall is an ugly building,  not as ugly as the science building I mentioned, but could be renovated for modern classroom and office space. 

Maybe if I'm ever on the Notre Dame campus again I'll bring up the idea of getting rid of that old football stadium and have them put up a gigantic quonset looking building so the fans and players won't have to play in a non-climate controlled atmosphere.

[61hawk]

3 hours ago, ChrisUND1 said:

Thank you for taking the time to write this.  Agree 100%. I was in many of those buildings 25 years ago and they stunk (literally), heat wasn’t great, AC was non existent…etc. etc. etc.  

If only there was a way to gut the interior of those buildings and install modern air handling systems.  Maybe those making decisions could contact the good people at Johnson Controls for answers. 

[SiouxFan100]

I don’t understand why the anger and attitudes