Providence @ UND

[tnt]

15 minutes ago, AJS said:

I'm making a lot of assumptions based on one game, but the way Berry constructed the lines was different than he has in the past. There's a lot of reason for optimism. The keys for me.

• Boisvert as a Top 6 C (which then would move Wilkie to 3C). They are going with a high-end / high-ceiling FR over 5th year transfer. 
• Schmaltz / Jamernik on the 4th line

The way these lines are constructed are what I've been asking. What line-up / lines will give this team the highest ceiling at the end of the year. Both F / D lines accomplish that. That has not been the case in recent years. 

Still baffles me how Schmaltz keeps finding his way on to the 2nd power play unit though.   Let him focus on the penalty kill and get another young gun out there to start growing into that role.  

[Brett0909]

38 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

I'm saying Carle and Bubs are equally as talented. You can disagree, that's fine. I have no problem with that. Scoring more goals lol, ok. No... I mean tangible. What did Carle do differently to make his team score those goals?

My overall point is that I absolutely do not think Carle is doing anything different than Bubs down the stretch over the past few years. The bolded part is my point. The overall supposition of the argument is that Carle is a better coach because his team has gotten the bounces to win in a one-and-done.... I think that's nonsense.

Sorry, I got us off on a tangent. 

Genuinely appreciate all your efforts to temper the ledgies who are prone to over-reacting on here…but are you really planting a flag that Carle is not a better coach than Berry, he’s just been luckier (year after year)? Maybe I’m misunderstanding…

I think we can all agree luck is involved and you likely can’t win it all without a bounce or two…and Carle got more than his share last year. But we have a decade worth of evidence that something isn’t working for Berry when it matters most, and I SERIOUSLY hope he isn’t sitting around complaining that it’s just been year after year of bad luck. Even he seemed to acknowledges the need for changes to get a different result. What great coaches (vs. good) do, in the thousands of choices they make, we’ll never fully understand. But some elite coaches are consistently getting the results while some aren’t.
 

Ultimately, Berry knows he’s judged by the final game of the year..I think it’s fair for posters here to also acknowledge that. 

[fightingsioux4life]

55 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

I'm saying Carle and Bubs are equally as talented. You can disagree, that's fine. I have no problem with that. Scoring more goals lol, ok. No... I mean tangible. What did Carle do differently to make his team score those goals?

My overall point is that I absolutely do not think Carle is doing anything different than Bubs down the stretch over the past few years. The bolded part is my point. The overall supposition of the argument is that Carle is a better coach because his team has gotten the bounces to win in a one-and-done.... I think that's nonsense.

Sorry, I got us off on a tangent. 

Here we go with the "one and done" bull$hit again. That's just an all-purpose excuse to repeatedly fail in the playoffs and have it explained away.

Do you really think that Denver's 3 titles since we hung #8 are mainly the result of "luck"? It's a clear pattern of success we have not had in a long time. That doesn't happen by accident and it sure as heck didn't happen because of "magic fairy dust". Ralph Engelstad didn't believe in "luck" and neither should we.

And FWIW, our GWG vs. Denver in the NCAA semifinals in 2016 was the result of winning a key faceoff, not "luck". I like how this team is built, but we'll have to wait and see how the team grows and develops over the coming months.

[stoneySIOUX]

7 minutes ago, Brett0909 said:

Genuinely appreciate all your efforts to temper the ledgies who are prone to over-reacting on here…but are you really planting a flag that Carle is not a better coach than Berry, he’s just been luckier (year after year)? Maybe I’m misunderstanding…

I think we can all agree luck is involved and you likely can’t win it all without a bounce or two…and Carle got more than his share last year. But we have a decade worth of evidence that something isn’t working for Berry when it matters most, and I SERIOUSLY hope he isn’t sitting around complaining that it’s just been year after year of bad luck. Even he seemed to acknowledges the need for changes to get a different result. What great coaches (vs. good) do, in the thousands of choices they make, we’ll never fully understand. But some elite coaches are consistently getting the results while some aren’t.
 

Ultimately, Berry knows he’s judged by the final game of the year..I think it’s fair for posters here to also acknowledge that. 

I think he's been a more successful coach. Is that fair? I do not think he's a better coach. Bubs has made many changes over the years, too.

The "something" is my issue... no one has ever been able to tell me why Carle is better than Bubs. It's not luck.... it's just hockey. His teams have gotten it done and that's why he's been more successful. 

[Irish]

58 minutes ago, Sweethockey said:

Right now, we should focus on the here and now. The team took a step in the right direction considering how they played against Auggie. Let's be thankful for that and hope they take another positive step this coming weekend. 

Can't compare Gino to Brad, it is a completely different set of circumstances from then to now.

Carle didn't have the best players last spring, a few were elite. His team played like a team should, they played for each other..... and of course there's a bit of luck involved.

My $0.02

Carle's team didn't take the first 10 minutes of the 3rd off in a regional game they were winning so there's that.

[stoneySIOUX]

13 minutes ago, fightingsioux4life said:

Here we go with the "one and done" bull$hit again. That's just an all-purpose excuse to repeatedly fail in the playoffs and have it explained away.

Do you really think that Denver's 3 titles since we hung #8 are mainly the result of "luck"? It's a clear pattern of success we have not had in a long time. That doesn't happen by accident and it sure as heck didn't happen because of "magic fairy dust". Ralph Engelstad didn't believe in "luck" and neither should we.

And FWIW, our GWG vs. Denver in the NCAA semifinals in 2016 was the result of winning a key faceoff, not "luck". I like how this team is built, but we'll have to wait and see how the team grows and develops over the coming months.

It's not BS. It's hockey.

No, it's not luck. It's just hockey. What can Bubs do better to win these games? 

And it's simple.... what did Carle do in those games that Bubs didn't? What did he do to affect the game?

FWIW, we did win the draw, but we did get a good bounce off the defenders pad right into the slot where Schmaltzy buried it. That's hockey. Get to the right place. I bet Bubs and crew told Schmaltz he needed to be in the slot at that point. 

 

[stoneySIOUX]

Again, sorry for the tangent. I don't mind disagreeing with people about this. Maybe we just get back to UND @ Prov lol

[stoneySIOUX]

10 minutes ago, Irish said:

Carle's team didn't take the first 10 minutes of the 3rd off in a regional game they were winning so there's that.

Can you tell me why?

[Irish]

2 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

Can you tell me why?

No one can be certain but I'm of the opinion that when we lost Eades we lost the guy that could be intense and fire up a team - and effectively call them on it when they were standing around.  Not so sure we have that now.  

[SiouxFan100]

Hockey is an unfair at the game level because the low scores and a fair amount of luck involved in each game. 
hockey is more fair at the season level

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

If anyone can find out what Carle said to Matt Davis to upgrade him from 'Kangas at The Ralph' to 'Dominek Hasek in his prime' once the NCAAs hit, I'll pay you good money...

[stoneySIOUX]

30 minutes ago, Irish said:

No one can be certain but I'm of the opinion that when we lost Eades we lost the guy that could be intense and fire up a team - and effectively call them on it when they were standing around.  Not so sure we have that now.  

Ok, well until someone can tell me specifically why Carle is better, that's my overall point. I don't think Bubs lacks anything. I disagree that he doesn't fire up the team. The team has been wholly fired up and won many big games. Unfortunately, some of those games didn't happen in the NCAA tourney.

[burd]

31 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

Ok, well until someone can tell me specifically why Carle is better, that's my overall point. I don't think Bubs lacks anything. I disagree that he doesn't fire up the team. The team has been wholly fired up and won many big games. Unfortunately, some of those games didn't happen in the NCAA tourney.

It would be nice to hear specific, rather than vague, often cliche' (like not playing a full 60) reasons as to why Berry or Hak before him isn't coaching like he should.  For instance, I don't think I've ever heard criticism that (whoever is coaching) is often outcoached on line matchups, citing specific and not isolated examples.   I'm guessing some coaches out there are just very good at that, especially keeping up with favorable matchups on the fly, not simply after a whistle.   It's no doubt an inexact science, but I'm quite sure it's important and requires a lot of film preparation and some serious understanding of what players can and should not be expected to do.    I don't have enough hockey knowledge to drive that kind of discussion, but it would be informative, rather than simple outcome criticism that plays more like fan poutage than it does criticism.  

[.357]

49 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

Ok, well until someone can tell me specifically why Carle is better, that's my overall point. I don't think Bubs lacks anything. I disagree that he doesn't fire up the team. The team has been wholly fired up and won many big games. Unfortunately, some of those games didn't happen in the NCAA tourney.

That's an unanswerable question for somebody who's not intimately involved with his program. How in the world is someone on ss.com supposed to know the 'why' to his success? Maybe it's how he motivates his players, maybe it's his overall charisma that players resonate with, maybe it's how he gets every player to buy in, maybe it's his problem-solving skills, maybe it's putting his players in lineups & situations where he knows they'll succeed, maybe he's more firm with players who aren't giving 100%, maybe he recruits better, maybe he says the right things at the right time, maybe he's a brilliant strategist..who the F knows, he's better because he gets the job done. 

[burd]

12 minutes ago, .357 said:

That's an unanswerable question for somebody who's not intimately involved with his program. How in the world is someone on ss.com supposed to know the 'why' to his success? Maybe it's how he motivates his players, maybe it's his overall charisma that players resonate with, maybe it's how he gets every player to buy in, maybe it's his problem-solving skills, maybe it's putting his players in lineups & situations where he knows they'll succeed, maybe he's more firm with players who aren't giving 100%, maybe he recruits better, maybe he says the right things at the right time, maybe he's a brilliant strategist..who the F knows, he's better because he gets the job done. 

   Does that (bolded) statement mean the same as "He gets the job done because he is better?"   

[dustnyou]

C’mon guys, y’all are trying to compare two of the best five college hockey coaches in the county. Bubs has coached at the highest level in the NHL and Carle will be there soon. Tons of respect for Carle and so thankful UND has Brad Berry. We’ve been blessed with top notch coaches for a long time. 

[brianvf]

Sorry to interrupt the coaching argument. 
Love the alternate angles on some of these goals...the Ralph sure kicks out some high quality replays.
The slo-mo on Boisvert's goal is beautiful...you can just see the velocity and how nicely he picked that top corner.
Emery already seems like he bleeds green, just super pumped with every goal & celebration (reminds me of how Parise used to celebrate goals with his enthusiasm).

 

[stoneySIOUX]

2 minutes ago, brianvf said:

Sorry to interrupt the coaching argument. 
Love the alternate angles on some of these goals...the Ralph sure kicks out some high quality replays.
The slo-mo on Boisvert's goal is beautiful...you can just see the velocity and how nicely he picked that top corner.
Emery already seems like he bleeds green, just super pumped with every goal & celebration (reminds me of how Parise used to celebrate goals with his enthusiasm).

 

I'm sorry lol. I tried to bring it back!

As a Rangers fan, I was so happy we was drafted by my team. After just one game, I'm now over the moon.

[gfhockey]

carle doesn’t even have the facilities we do and nails 3 nattys more then any und coach has

 

whlnever saying carle is a equal coach to berry I want some of that what your smoking

could be the blasfamus statement of the year candidate

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

4 minutes ago, gfhockey said:

carle doesn’t even have the facilities we do and nails 3 nattys more then any und coach has

 

whlnever saying carle is a equal coach to berry I want some of that what your smoking

could be the blasfamus statement of the year candidate

 

[petey23]

8 hours ago, .357 said:

This is what concerns me. It seems like the team as a whole is unable to be self-motivated & requires an external circumstance to kick it into higher gear .. like the late shot by a Friar player. It baffles me to no end how this can happen, not just by a couple of players but by most of the team. It's as if they're in a trance for long stretches.

Clearly what Berry is telling them in the locker room is not translating to the ice. Part of the reason I included that quote on Gasparini earlier was to highlight what should be expected of a coach at UND: to always have your team competing at the highest level, something Gino was a master of & which Berry is still trying to figure out.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this team will never go far in the tourney if they can't be self-motivated to play a full 60. The win against Providence felt good, but one swallow does not make a summer. They simply cannot have that lackadaisical approach, because every team they face will be playing at a higher level to try & beat them. Having that ho-hum attitude against PWR-killers like Robert Morris or Bemidji St. will put a serious dent in their playoff hopes. Showing up to play every night for the entire game should be a given.

An off night here & there happens, but the repeated pattern of non-urgency for long stretches is a legitimate concern. The team will not be hanging #9 by playing only 40-50 minutes/game.

 

Providence came out ready to play but I don't think it is fair to say we weren't. We struggled at beginning of game with our breakout and their forecheck and then dropping into a trap in the neutral zone. I was happy to see us make adjustments on the fly rather than waiting until the period ended. The timing coincided with the late shot and skirmish but we had started making the changes a couple shifts earlier. We put a little trust in our defenseman and instead of trying to break out in a 5 man unit we had a couple forwards spread them out by drifting out of the zone between center ice and the far blueline. Emery made a couple beautiful tape to tape passes from the endline to the far blueline which caused them to back off on their forecheck a bit and allowed us to hit the 3rd forward skating horizontally and we were able to bypass the neutral zone mess they had been creating and started being able to enter their zone with speed.

[petey23]

16 hours ago, farce poobah said:

Gino was an amazing judge of people and talent. Winning conference and national titles in the first two seasons, combines his skill in recruiting players and bringing in excellent assistant coaches.   Rick Wilson wasn’t here long, but he went on to 30 seasons in the NHL. Dean Blais joined for the 1981-82 season.  The coaching tree is long indeed.

As athletic director, Gino hired some great coaches who revived other key sports on campus.  Roger Thomas in 1986, Rich Glas in 1988, Gene Roebuck in 1987.  

While he was leading the USHL, from 1994-2009, (as both Commissioner and later President). the league experienced growth and was set up for future success.

I will stop now, but will say I was excited when we hired him as head coach some 46 years ago, and my admiration has only grown over time. 

Was going to mention Gino made some incredible coaching hires. Looking back I wonder of doing both jobs caused the Hockey program to suffer. They say recruiting catches up with you in a year or two....especially back then. Or maybe he was burnt out, but the last 3 seasons we went 40-69-6 finishing 7th, 8th, and 8th in the WCHA.

[.357]

13 minutes ago, petey23 said:

Providence came out ready to play but I don't think it is fair to say we weren't. We struggled at beginning of game with our breakout and their forecheck and then dropping into a trap in the neutral zone. I was happy to see us make adjustments on the fly rather than waiting until the period ended. The timing coincided with the late shot and skirmish but we had started making the changes a couple shifts earlier. We put a little trust in our defenseman and instead of trying to break out in a 5 man unit we had a couple forwards spread them out by drifting out of the zone between center ice and the far blueline. Emery made a couple beautiful tape to tape passes from the endline to the far blueline which caused them to back off on their forecheck a bit and allowed us to hit the 3rd forward skating horizontally and we were able to bypass the neutral zone mess they had been creating and started being able to enter their zone with speed.

Appreciate the feedback. Breakouts were a bugaboo last spring. 

[farce poobah]

3 hours ago, petey23 said:

Was going to mention Gino made some incredible coaching hires. Looking back I wonder of doing both jobs caused the Hockey program to suffer. They say recruiting catches up with you in a year or two....especially back then. Or maybe he was burnt out, but the last 3 seasons we went 40-69-6 finishing 7th, 8th, and 8th in the WCHA.

As a fan of UND Football and Basketball, I enjoyed how those 3 hires really set up UND for a nice run of success.  

Hard to say exactly why UND hockey became less competitive ... yes I think doing two jobs was asking too much of anyone, even a hard working dedicated guy like Gino.     

Also, our primary recruiting grounds in Canada, from Thunder Bay west in those days, came under pressure from the Major Juniors including higher stipends for players and post-hockey college tuition payments.  (I note that Denver suffered in those years also, and their Western Canada roots matched up with UND in those years.)   

The game changed very rapidly in the late 80's to early 90's, led by change to lighter and bigger goalie pads, which forced a lot of other strategy changes.  Perhaps we didn't recruit as well for that change either.  (Blais certainly changed it up, and pronto, when he took over in 94-95.)

[Brett0909]

8 hours ago, stoneySIOUX said:

Can you tell me why?

This is the rub of it, right? And always fun to debate on things none of us are qualified to truly judge. (Sorry, I know we were trying to return to regularly scheduled programming)..,

I’d like to think if Berry was asked about each season since his first what went wrong, he’d give you a list of big and small things every year that he would’ve changed. Just part of the process for all coaches (or any professional for that matter). He’s competing against a lot of really good coaches who all want it just as bad, after all. It’s okay if he’s not the best.

You take that list and shave off 10 or 20% of those things, and there’s a real chance that some of those seasons end differently- they make the playoffs, they make it to the FF, etc. Maybe Carle simply connects on that extra 10-20% of misses (recruiting, discipline, lines/in-game, drills and focus, mental aspects, etc.). I always felt Hakstol was an amazing GM, managing the team. And Berry was possibly the better game time coach and connected with the players. We saw a loaded Hakstol team that Berry led to victory…maybe neither would have done it on their own. 

I believe Berry’s a really good coach - likely top 5-10 in college hockey. I’m certainly rooting for his success. But I also believe the sample size is big enough now to know that Berry’s team is on the wrong side of needing bounces in the tourney - not 50/50 puck luck, but they just aren’t performing well enough to NOT NEED a bounce or two to go their way in order to win against good teams. Other than the shenanigans against BU, they certainly aren’t outplaying other teams but losing off of bad luck lately.

If you listen to DU players, they 100% BELIEVE they’re going to win when it counts. UND players seem to be hoping lately not to lose in the postseason, and lose that belief in winning when things get hard (small slumps or full-on collapses that cost them the win). Compare to Sandelin’s NC teams or Carle’s last year - they were nearly flawless in their execution, even when playing more talented teams. Belief and mental resilience seems to be as good a driver as any I can come up with for the difference. 

This is an extreme example as Carle (results wise) is in a league of his own right now, like York was. But hopefully Berry’s taking notes and the optimists on the board get some vindication in the post-season soon. Berry HAS won (a share of, at least) the Spencer Penrose and dominated the regular season, so I’d say we’re debating first world problems…and I trust that he wants it far more than any of us and is giving his best.