Redneksioux Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 19 minutes ago, TheFlop said: Ok I feel sorry for you so I will explain. People previously got sick with a virus/viruses....contrary to liberal beliefs this is not something that just started happening in March 2020....been happening since the beginning of man/woman/non-binary/LGBTGIQWQIAGFF people. For those with normal immune systems (the majority of the population) getting these viruses has trained your immune system to be able to fight off that viruses and future viruses. The people that didn't live in a bubble and didn't have pre-existing problems with their immune systems have fared fine with Covid. The more Covid spreads through people that are able to handle it......the fewer people there will be going forward to keep catching it and spreading it to others that maybe can't handle it. It really is a bandaid quick or slow type of thing.....and I understand why the bandaid wasn't yanked off right away.....but the slow peel of the last 4-5 months has been ridiculous. No need to feel sorry for me, though I'm sorry you are struggling to comprehend the meaning of evidence. While I see what you are saying, this is not what it says in your article that you claimed as evidence. Where is the evidence from your article that you can claim herd immunity is the answer to Covid 19? You realize the nursing home in Grand Forks is currently experiencing an outbreak right? Are you suggesting they should have their employees to retract their oathes, get rid of PPE, and just let this thing make it's way through so we can hurry up and get to your evidence based theory of herd immunity with Covid19? Why do you think they are going back to lockdown mode? Is Valley Senior Living ran by a bunch of liberals?
1972 Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, Redneksioux said: No need to feel sorry for me, though I'm sorry you are struggling to comprehend the meaning of evidence. While I see what you are saying, this is not what it says in your article that you claimed as evidence. Where is the evidence from your article that you can claim herd immunity is the answer to Covid 19? You realize the nursing home in Grand Forks is currently experiencing an outbreak right? Are you suggesting they should have their employees to retract their oathes, get rid of PPE, and just let this thing make it's way through so we can hurry up and get to your evidence based theory of herd immunity with Covid19? Why do you think they are going back to lockdown mode? Is Valley Senior Living ran by a bunch of liberals? reading comprehension is not your strong suit. 1
Redneksioux Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 1 minute ago, 1972 said: reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Elaborate for me then. Specifically how does the article provide evidence that herd immunity is the answer to covid19? Or is my question too difficult for you to comprehend?
TheFlop Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 13 minutes ago, Redneksioux said: No need to feel sorry for me, though I'm sorry you are struggling to comprehend the meaning of evidence. While I see what you are saying, this is not what it says in your article that you claimed as evidence. Where is the evidence from your article that you can claim herd immunity is the answer to Covid 19? You realize the nursing home in Grand Forks is currently experiencing an outbreak right? Are you suggesting they should have their employees to retract their oathes, get rid of PPE, and just let this thing make it's way through so we can hurry up and get to your evidence based theory of herd immunity with Covid19? Why do you think they are going back to lockdown mode? Is Valley Senior Living ran by a bunch of liberals? Your first question I (and frankly no one) can help you if you can't comprehend. A virus needs a host.....if it runs out of hosts...it runs out of people to spread it. As to the outbreak you cited in Grand Forks, I specifically said people able to handle it. People in long term care facilities are a vulnerable population and require a higher level of protection. Apparently medical grade masks worn by trained medical personnel wasn't enough to prevent an outbreak.......maybe it would have helped to make them wear the same cloth masks that somehow are supposed to keep everyone safe in Hugo's. 1 1
Redneksioux Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 11 minutes ago, TheFlop said: Your first question I (and frankly no one) can help you if you can't comprehend. A virus needs a host.....if it runs out of hosts...it runs out of people to spread it. As to the outbreak you cited in Grand Forks, I specifically said people able to handle it. People in long term care facilities are a vulnerable population and require a higher level of protection. Apparently medical grade masks worn by trained medical personnel wasn't enough to prevent an outbreak.......maybe it would have helped to make them wear the same cloth masks that somehow are supposed to keep everyone safe in Hugo's. I understand a virus needs a host. So I will ask again, where in your article is the evidence that herd immunity is the answer? In the nursing home's case, I'd argue that maybe it would help if there was less of the virus coming into the facility. But that would infringe on too many others' civil liberties right?
1972 Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 here, this might help herd im·mu·ni·ty noun noun: herd immunity; plural noun: herd immunities the resistance to the spread of a contagious disease within a population that results if a sufficiently high proportion of individuals are immune to the disease, especially through vaccination. "the level of vaccination needed to achieve herd immunity varies by disease but ranges from 83 to 94 percent" 1 1
Hammersmith Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 10 minutes ago, TheFlop said: Your first question I (and frankly no one) can help you if you can't comprehend. A virus needs a host.....if it runs out of hosts...it runs out of people to spread it. As to the outbreak you cited in Grand Forks, I specifically said people able to handle it. People in long term care facilities are a vulnerable population and require a higher level of protection. Apparently medical grade masks worn by trained medical personnel wasn't enough to prevent an outbreak.......maybe it would have helped to make them wear the same cloth masks that somehow are supposed to keep everyone safe in Hugo's. Dude, he's right. Nothing in the article you posted supports what you're arguing. Either you don't completely understand herd immunity, or you don't understand the article. The concept of herd immunity is based on stopping people from being transmitters of the disease. If you have enough of those people in the wild, then the disease cannot progress enough and eventually outbreaks fizzle out. But the article wasn't talking about that. The article was talking about the different levels of immune system response to C19 and how that response might be connected to exposure to other coronaviruses. The big thing from that article for the purposes of our discussion is that exposure to other coronaviruses DOES NOT give you immunity to C19 and it DOES NOT prevent you from being contagious. All it does is lessen the severity of the illness. So if previous exposure to other coronaviruses does not give you complete immunity from C19 or prevent you from passing it on, how can it say anything about herd immunity? 3
Bison06 Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 I am by no means an expert on immunity or vaccinations, though I have some formal education and read about both regularly. The question I can't find an answer to in any of the discussion I've seen online or in this forum is, if we are somehow unable to achieve herd immunity naturally through wild spread, how will a vaccination help protect anyone if the virus can be contracted more than once(this hasn't been fully decided yet)? 2
CarpeRemote Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 4 hours ago, TheFlop said: More evidence that herd immunity is the answer....and Fauci basically admits it. The ironic thing is that those that have done best with Covid....are those with an immune system that has grown strong by fighting off similar viruses. With all of this social distancing/quarantining going on people don't have the chance to catch the more minor viruses......that would help strengthen their immune system.....and have them ready to fight off more severe viruses when they pop up. https://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/coronavirus/article244852012.html The article explains boosted immune response to the new c-19 due to a lifetime of exposures to common corona viruses (229E etc) I assume that’s your point since it’s a form of herd immunity. In the current situation, herd immunity is generally used in terms of exposure to only c-19 4
Hammersmith Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 8 minutes ago, Bison06 said: I am by no means an expert on immunity or vaccinations, though I have some formal education and read about both regularly. The question I can't find an answer to in any of the discussion I've seen online or in this forum is, if we are somehow unable to achieve herd immunity naturally through wild spread, how will a vaccination help protect anyone if the virus can be contracted more than once(this hasn't been fully decided yet)? There are a couple different ways we can do it depending on a few factors. The big factors will be how long the immunity lasts, what immunity percentage is needed for C19 herd immunity, and how much we really want this thing gone versus just containing it. If the immunity from the vaccine typically lasts decades, then we add it to childhood vaccinations plus a booster shot every so often. If it only lasts a few years, maybe we just start giving it regularly to vulnerable populations and anyone else who wants it, just like the flu shot. If it's only a year or so, maybe we just include it in the flu shot(which is already a mix of four different vaccines). If the immunity lasts for a few years or more and we really want this thing gone, we go for a global distribution of the vaccine for free and keep it up for several years. We do a good enough job, and the virus is gone for good. A lot will depend on how things happen after we get out of this pandemic. There have been other coronaviruses that we were very worried about, but they never came back after the first go around. As much as I hope C19 will do the same, I kinda doubt it will; it's just so much more communicative than those others. But if we get a vaccine that's even partially effective, we should be able to break the transmission chain. Widespread vaccination plus a few additional months of masks and social distancing should drop the transmission rate hard enough so that contact tracing, spot testing, and limited quarantining can finish stamping it out. Then we just get together with other countries and make the C19 vaccination part of the visa process. That should take care of 99.9% of the problem. And then we reevaluate every five years or so. If we go 10 years without a C19 outbreak, drop the vaccine requirement. But even if we never make it to a 100% solution, that doesn't mean it's a failure. We don't need perfect; good enough will do just fine. And if a vaccine can get the transmission rate down low enough for the other techniques to finish the job, that's definitely good enough. 2
Bison06 Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 9 minutes ago, Hammersmith said: There are a couple different ways we can do it depending on a few factors. The big factors will be how long the immunity lasts, what immunity percentage is needed for C19 herd immunity, and how much we really want this thing gone versus just containing it. If the immunity from the vaccine typically lasts decades, then we add it to childhood vaccinations plus a booster shot every so often. If it only lasts a few years, maybe we just start giving it regularly to vulnerable populations and anyone else who wants it, just like the flu shot. If it's only a year or so, maybe we just include it in the flu shot(which is already a mix of four different vaccines). If the immunity lasts for a few years or more and we really want this thing gone, we go for a global distribution of the vaccine for free and keep it up for several years. We do a good enough job, and the virus is gone for good. A lot will depend on how things happen after we get out of this pandemic. There have been other coronaviruses that we were very worried about, but they never came back after the first go around. As much as I hope C19 will do the same, I kinda doubt it will; it's just so much more communicative than those others. But if we get a vaccine that's even partially effective, we should be able to break the transmission chain. Widespread vaccination plus a few additional months of masks and social distancing should drop the transmission rate hard enough so that contact tracing, spot testing, and limited quarantining can finish stamping it out. Then we just get together with other countries and make the C19 vaccination part of the visa process. That should take care of 99.9% of the problem. And then we reevaluate every five years or so. If we go 10 years without a C19 outbreak, drop the vaccine requirement. But even if we never make it to a 100% solution, that doesn't mean it's a failure. We don't need perfect; good enough will do just fine. And if a vaccine can get the transmission rate down low enough for the other techniques to finish the job, that's definitely good enough. Thanks for all the info, that is helpful. 2
SIOUXFAN97 Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 2 hours ago, Redneksioux said: No need to feel sorry for me, though I'm sorry you are struggling to comprehend the meaning of evidence. While I see what you are saying, this is not what it says in your article that you claimed as evidence. Where is the evidence from your article that you can claim herd immunity is the answer to Covid 19? You realize the nursing home in Grand Forks is currently experiencing an outbreak right? Are you suggesting they should have their employees to retract their oathes, get rid of PPE, and just let this thing make it's way through so we can hurry up and get to your evidence based theory of herd immunity with Covid19? Why do you think they are going back to lockdown mode? Is Valley Senior Living ran by a bunch of liberals? probably
TheFlop Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 2 hours ago, Redneksioux said: I understand a virus needs a host. So I will ask again, where in your article is the evidence that herd immunity is the answer? In the nursing home's case, I'd argue that maybe it would help if there was less of the virus coming into the facility. But that would infringe on too many others' civil liberties right? Who's bringing the virus into the facility? Maybe those people that are exposing vulnerable people to the virus should be more careful? Me going into Hugo's to buy a milk without a mask or my kid playing a basketball game isn't the one doing it. 1
Redneksioux Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, TheFlop said: Who's bringing the virus into the facility? Maybe those people that are exposing vulnerable people to the virus should be more careful? Me going into Hugo's to buy a milk without a mask or my kid playing a basketball game isn't the one doing it. More than likely it is asymptomatic staff. You can't expect PPE to be 100% foolproof in a medical facility when it's being re-used because there's not enough to change it out between patients. If you go into Hugo's or a basketball game and are an asymptomatic carrier, you definitely are not helping the situation. Plus Hugo's is asking you to wear a mask while in their store, why do you feel a need to go in without one?
TheFlop Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 1 hour ago, CarpeRemote said: The article explains boosted immune response to the new c-19 due to a lifetime of exposures to common corona viruses (229E etc) I assume that’s your point since it’s a form of herd immunity. In the current situation, herd immunity is generally used in terms of exposure to only c-19 Correct....because there are very few absolutes in anything. How did the asymptomatic/minimally symptomatic people get that level of "immunity"? It wasn't by living in a bubble and staying home for a week everytime someone in their school or office came down with some illness. They lived life, caught viruses, and built up their immune system. Here's food for thought, the next virus that SE Asia slings over to the US might be more deadly than Covid-19.....what if having caught Covid-19 and allowing your immune system to build up and fight it off.....helps you weather the next virus? 2
Bison06 Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Redneksioux said: More than likely it is asymptomatic staff. You can't expect PPE to be 100% foolproof in a medical facility when it's being re-used because there's not enough to change it out between patients. If you go into Hugo's or a basketball game and are an asymptomatic carrier, you definitely are not helping the situation. Plus Hugo's is asking you to wear a mask while in their store, why do you feel a need to go in without one? Has the idea of asymptomatic carriers who spread the disease been fully vetted out? I've heard so many different things in the last 5 months. 1
Redneksioux Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, Bison06 said: Has the idea of asymptomatic carriers who spread the disease been fully vetted out? I've heard so many different things in the last 5 months. As far as I know, it hasn’t been fully vetted out. I’d hope symptomatic individuals wouldn’t be showing up to work in a nursing home at this point though. Could be getting in from vendors or visitors too. Or on packages? Or all the above. 1
1972 Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 so if it could be brought in to any facility by just about any means, what is the point of shutting buisnesses down? are we really helping anything? are we just trying to appease the huddled masses? would going on about our lives as normal really change the numbers at all? nobody knows for sure. we are throwing darts at a dart board and hopping it works. (p.s. if masks truely worked as hoped, asia would never have had a problem. they have been wearing mask everyday for decades because their air quality is so poor) 1
TheFlop Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 11 minutes ago, Redneksioux said: As far as I know, it hasn’t been fully vetted out. I’d hope symptomatic individuals wouldn’t be showing up to work in a nursing home at this point though. Could be getting in from vendors or visitors too. Or on packages? Or all the above. So are you saying that nursing homes aren't currently requiring all vendors/visitors to wear appropriate masks/sanitize.....and take other precautions like limiting number of visitors/visits? Because if not, once again that's on the nursing home not on the 18 year old kid that missed his football season this fall in Minnesota. 1
Redneksioux Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, 1972 said: so if it could be brought in to any facility by just about any means, what is the point of shutting buisnesses down? are we really helping anything? are we just trying to appease the huddled masses? would going on about our lives as normal really change the numbers at all? nobody knows for sure. we are throwing darts at a dart board and hopping it works. (p.s. if masks truely worked as hoped, asia would never have had a problem. they have been wearing mask everyday for decades because their air quality is so poor) Theoretically if there were less individuals infected, less would get into the nursing homes right? Actually masks have worked pretty well for Asia, I understand they wear them based on their past experiences with viruses as well. Also check out how New Zealand has fared.
Redneksioux Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, TheFlop said: So are you saying that nursing homes aren't currently requiring all vendors/visitors to wear appropriate masks/sanitize.....and take other precautions like limiting number of visitors/visits? Because if not, once again that's on the nursing home not on the 18 year old kid that missed his football season this fall in Minnesota. No I'm not saying that. I believe vendors at most would be required to wear masks and sanitize. But are gowns being used by vendors? And is ppe being discarded when going from patient to patient? This just isn't possible because they don't have enough ppe to follow standard infection control practices that have been used in hospitals for years. Yes six months into this and we still don't have the needed PPE. The best solution I'm aware of right now is to attempt to reduce the number of infected coming in and in order to do so we need to reduce the number infected in the general public. A rapid test before entering would do wonders too.
Bison06 Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, Redneksioux said: Theoretically if there were less individuals infected, less would get into the nursing homes right? Actually masks have worked pretty well for Asia, I understand they wear them based on their past experiences with viruses as well. Also check out how New Zealand has fared. Asia is a fine analogue, but we can learn almost nothing in the US from New Zealand IMO. They are an isolated island with a total population the size of the Minneapolis area on a landmass roughly the size of Colorado.
Redneksioux Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Bison06 said: Asia is a fine analogue, but we can learn almost nothing in the US from New Zealand IMO. They are an isolated island with a total population the size of the Minneapolis area. I know New Zealand is a much smaller scale, but they've been successful. We should consider mirroring what they have done on a much larger scale.
Bison06 Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, Redneksioux said: I know New Zealand is a much smaller scale, but they've been successful. We should consider mirroring what they have done on a much larger scale. But how would you even do that logistically. Didn't they completely close their borders and isolate/quarantine all inbound travelers for 14 days? No way we could do that on a US scale with all of the possible entry points. Also, if this herd immunity deal ever gets figured out and we can develop some sort of community immunity to Covid, New Zealand will be susceptible all over again.
Redneksioux Posted August 12, 2020 Posted August 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bison06 said: But how would you even do that logistically. Didn't they completely close their borders and isolate/quarantine all inbound travelers for 14 days? No way we could do that on a US scale with all of the possible entry points. We'd need a plan at the federal level for starters.
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