If Big Ten Offers UND Should They Join?

[fightingsioux4life]

50 minutes ago, NYSioux said:

If you compare an 8 team NCHC with an 8 team Big Ten (including UND and Notre Dame) objectively based on last years final pairwise rankings, I think the NCHC is still better, but it is not as lopsided as some might think.  Here are the rankings based on the app on my phone(including tied rankings):

 

NCHC

#2, #3, #6, #14, #17, #26, #43, #55

 

Big Ten

#3, #6, #12, #18, #22, #31, #40, #47

 

I understand the argument that the league made us more playoff ready, but I disagree with it.  The first two years in the NCHC, the results were similar to the 10 years that preceded it.  I think that if you consistently put together good teams and put yourself in a position to win, things are going to work out in your favor.  

This sounds like the #ButtRPI argument that Bison fans make with regard to the Slummit. There are a lot of other variables besides PWR.

[siouxkid12]

56 minutes ago, UNDvince97-01 said:

Who said UND NEEDS to go?

Under the right negotiated conditions, the B1G could offer alot to UND.  If not, then stay NCHC.

 

So how much revenue and TV rating do they bring to the B1G?  Is B1G lacrosse having the same problems as B1G hockey?

Just because Johns Hopkins Lacrosse doesnt get revenue doesnt mean UND Hockey cant.

In terms of impact, it's apples to oranges comparison.

What I am saying is affiliated members only in certain sports have not gotten revenue in the past and I was using them as an example (lacrosse is a niche sport as is hockey). That being said knowing the arrogance of the B10 and its members, it could go to UND with an initial offer and say "join our league but you wont get any TV revenue". That's when UND tells them to pound sand. 

[82SiouxGuy]

1 hour ago, siouxkid12 said:

John Hopkins is an affiliated member in Lacrosse and they do not receive any money from the B10 network.

 

23 hours ago, 82SiouxGuy said:

Just because that is the way they have done things doesn't mean they couldn't do something different in this case. Adding UND would definitely add revenue in at least some of the Big 10 markets. The same probably can't be said about adding a school for track, or a school like Johns Hopkins for lacrosse (I'm pretty sure that Johns Hopkins is currently the only affiliate member and lacrosse isn't a huge TV money maker in most Big 10 markets). If a school is going to add to the bottom line they deserve to participate in some way.

I'm sure that they will look at going in house when the current contract is up, but with the current financial conditions I don't see it happening. There would be a lot of start up expense buying equipment, and they would have to add at least a few full time employees plus a bunch of part time employees to handle the game broadcasts. They appear to be moving away from that model when they announce that Paul Ralston and Tim Hennessy will no longer be UND employees and that Learfield Sports will be handling the radio broadcasting. If UND were to join the Big 10, the network would only broadcast some of the games. UND would probably be free to find another outlet for the rest of the games, whether that was in house or a provider like Midco.

I addressed your comment a day ago. It is very doubtful that adding Johns Hopkins for lacrosse added a great deal to the bottom line for the Big 10 Network. Lacrosse doesn't get big ratings in regular Big 10 markets. Many of those markets have more interest in hockey. Adding UND to the conference for hockey could add more to the bottom line for the network than adding Johns Hopkins for lacrosse. Therefore, it makes more sense that UND would get a share in those dollars. I'm pretty sure that UND would want that share to become a member.

[cberkas]

1 hour ago, siouxkid12 said:

John Hopkins is an affiliated member in Lacrosse and they do not receive any money from the B10 network.

Because they have a TV deal with ESPN, just like Notre Dame has one with NBC.

[UNDvince97-01]

38 minutes ago, siouxkid12 said:

What I am saying is affiliated members only in certain sports have not gotten revenue in the past and I was using them as an example (lacrosse is a niche sport as is hockey). That being said knowing the arrogance of the B10 and its members, it could go to UND with an initial offer and say "join our league but you wont get any TV revenue". That's when UND tells them to pound sand. 

1.  Comparing Lacrosse to Hockey in regards to revenue, TV ratings and "current problems":  Not comparable.  UND would have impact to B1G hockey that isn't in the same conversation as Johns Hopkins Lacrosse has/had.  UND brings so much more to the table from a financial standpoint. 

2.  What was done in the past will be so in the future:  we don't know that.

3.  The B1G could make that offer you mentioned:  they certainly could, but they could also offer something a lot better.

4.  That's when UND tells them to pound sand:  if that's what they are offering, as I have said literally from day one, yes I agree.  No argument here.

[NYSioux]

43 minutes ago, fightingsioux4life said:

This sounds like the #ButtRPI argument that Bison fans make with regard to the Slummit. There are a lot of other variables besides PWR.

You may be right.  I'm no expert in either system, however, I did see a lot comments about how we were lucky to have such a system in place rather than a committee that can screw us over like in football.

Whether the Pairwise is a fair system can be argued, but whether it is objective and determines which teams get into the tournament cannot.  The second point cannot be said for the RPI in basketball.

[Blackheart]

1 hour ago, NYSioux said:

My bad. I thought you were distinguishing the national championship from frozen four appearances.  That was more side commentary though.

From an objective view, the rankings are similar, although skewed slightly higher to NCHC on the top end.  

From a personal opinion perspective, I think we would see the Big Ten turn into a pretty strong conference with the addition of Notre Dame and UND.  I am happy with UND being in the NCHC, but I think games against Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan every year would be a great thing for our team and our fans.  I also think that Penn State shows a lot of promise in the short time they have had as a DI hockey club.

We already schedule Wisconsin non-conference and Minnesota, now that the rivalry is deemed 'healthy' again. (I guess Lucia makes that determination?)  So really the only other team I would care to play out of the Little 6 is Michigan.  I'm sure Red Berenson would love to schedule a couple home and homes with the Sioux.   I guess I'd rather play these guys non-conference right now instead of leaving our home in the NCHC.

[UND1981]

Right on.  Why try to fix it when it's not broken.

[GFG]

4 hours ago, UNDvince97-01 said:

For all the people freaking out about the possibility of considering the B1G:  Nobody is saying dive in headfirst if an invite is extended.

We have a good fallback situation with the NCHC and have good leverage with the B1G if they want us. (I truly believe UND is their hockey fix)

Negotiate a small revenue deal and negotiate when the games are played.

If you don't like the negotiated options, then say no and stay NCHC.  It's simple, really.

We would never leave the NCHC unless it benefited us in the short term and long term.

Exactly. UND wouldn't go unless it was beneficial to them, and you can bet they would negotiate in that way. If they don't like the terms they won't go. Simple as that.

3 hours ago, siouxkid12 said:

John Hopkins is an affiliated member in Lacrosse and they do not receive any money from the B10 network.

Johns Hopkins doesn't want nor need the money from BTN. The benefit they received was that they get more opportunities to work with the B1G schools for research

2 hours ago, SiouxVolley said:

It is not AAU like Rutgers, Maryland, and Johns Hopkins.  So Notre Dame didn't meet the B1G's academic requirements.  More than that, it has been abysmal in hockey until very recently when it actually made a couple Frozen Fours but no championship.

The ONLY reason Notre Dame isn't AAU is because they don't have a medical school, which is required for AAU membership. That's also why Nebraska's AAU status was taken away. They said the medical school was to far from their Lincoln campus.

[zonadub]

4 hours ago, UNDvince97-01 said:

Of course you are......no surprise there.

Your judging of me by my avatar is comical.  Yeah, I hope UND Football gets added to the B1G because of hockey.

What? You mean NDSU is not getting invited to the Big 12 because of wrasslin'?  Blasphemy!

[jdub27]

40 minutes ago, GFG said:

The ONLY reason Notre Dame isn't AAU is because they don't have a medical school, which is required for AAU membership. That's also why Nebraska's AAU status was taken away. They said the medical school was to far from their Lincoln campus.

That and the portion of their research that was under the UNL governance skewed too heavily towards non-competitive research for the AAU's liking.

[lawkota]

Regarding AAU membership - Iowa State doesn't have a med school.  There are others as well, but that is one that seems similar to Nebraska.  Also, prior to 2013, UT-Austin did not have a medical school. 

[siouxkid12]

2 hours ago, UNDvince97-01 said:

1.  Comparing Lacrosse to Hockey in regards to revenue, TV ratings and "current problems":  Not comparable.  UND would have impact to B1G hockey that isn't in the same conversation as Johns Hopkins Lacrosse has/had.  UND brings so much more to the table from a financial standpoint. 

2.  What was done in the past will be so in the future:  we don't know that.

3.  The B1G could make that offer you mentioned:  they certainly could, but they could also offer something a lot better.

4.  That's when UND tells them to pound sand:  if that's what they are offering, as I have said literally from day one, yes I agree.  No argument here.

Strange how Lacrosse bumps College hockey on ESPN when you say college hockey has "better" TV ratings and bring in more revenue...

[Mhockey]

5 hours ago, InHeavenThereIsNoBeer said:

Despite any variables involved in a potential move to the Big10, I really believe our hockey team would be sold short.  We go from a conference that prepares us extremely well for the NCAAs every year to one where we play OSU, MSU, PSU, & WI(unless they get better) on a regular basis.  I truly believe a big reason for our newly found postseason success is playing UMD, UNO, SCSU, DU, & Miami on a regular basis. The NCHC has sent an average of 4.33 teams to the NCAAs every year. That's over 1/2 the conference! Also, we have sent 5 teams(out of a possible 12 chances) to the Frozen Four(UND 3 times), and have our 1st national championship since 2000.  I don't think it's a coincidence that we have made the FF every year we have been part of our new conference.

So to recap, since the NCHC has been formed we've had 27% of NCAA participants, 42% of Frozen Four teams, and 33% of the national champions. This, despite our conference making up 13% of all college hockey teams. Why change things?

Change for more $. The strength of the nchc has never been a question or a reason to leave to another 

[The Sicatoka]

1 hour ago, GFG said:

Exactly. UND wouldn't go unless it was beneficial to them, and you can bet they would negotiate in that way. If they don't like the terms they won't go. Simple as that.

< ding! > 

Correct. 

[UNDvince97-01]

28 minutes ago, siouxkid12 said:

Strange how Lacrosse bumps College hockey on ESPN when you say college hockey has "better" TV ratings and bring in more revenue...

So are you saying that college lacrosse is more popular than college hockey?  Again, from a BTN network and revenue sharing standpoint, lacrosse and hockey is apples to oranges, agreed?

What ESPN does with their programming is different than what the BTN does with theirs.  Plus, BTN is sharing their money with their membership institutions.  ESPN, not so much. 

ESPN has zero bearing on the discussion of whether UND should consider a negotiated affiliate membership with the B1G and their Big Ten Network TV deal. 

Honest question: does BTN show lacrosse on their network regularly?  I really do not know the answer.  EDIT:  looks like they do.

[GFG]

2 minutes ago, UNDvince97-01 said:

So are you saying that college lacrosse is more popular than college hockey?  Again, from a BTN network and revenue sharing standpoint, lacrosse and hockey is apples to oranges, agreed?

What ESPN does with their programming is different than what the BTN does with theirs.  Plus, BTN is sharing their money with their membership institutions.  ESPN, not so much. 

ESPN has zero bearing on the discussion of whether UND should consider a negotiated affiliate membership with the B1G and their Big Ten Network TV deal. 

Honest question: does BTN show lacrosse on their network regularly?  I really do not know the answer.

Not really. I always pull up BTN on the guide to see what's on and I don't think I've seen lacrosse on more than once or twice the past couple of years, although that could just be due to timing on my part. They show more baseball and softball games along with football reruns. 

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

27 minutes ago, Mhockey said:

Change for more $. The strength of the nchc has never been a question or a reason to leave to another 

Right, and that is not a good enough reason for me. Although, I know that higher ups in the university may change conferences for $$$, it didn't work out so well for the state of UMN and WI hockey. They are now relegated to a conference where the fans don't care about rivalries and are seeing 2nd rate college hockey. As a fan, that sounds awful. The majority of Gopher fans I talk to classify the move to the Big10 as a money grab and has diminished the quality of hockey and their interest in it.

[Blackheart]

10 minutes ago, InHeavenThereIsNoBeer said:

Right, and that is not a good enough reason for me. Although, I know that higher ups in the university may change conferences for $$$, it didn't work out so well for the state of UMN and WI hockey. They are now relegated to a conference where the fans don't care about rivalries and are seeing 2nd rate college hockey. As a fan, that sounds awful. The majority of Gopher fans I talk to classify the move to the Big10 as a money grab and has diminished the quality of hockey and their interest in it.

THIS^^^^

[GFG]

1 minute ago, InHeavenThereIsNoBeer said:

Right, and that is not a good enough reason for me. Although, I know that higher ups in the university may change conferences for $$$, it didn't work out so well for the state of UMN and WI hockey. They are now relegated to a conference where the fans don't care about rivalries and are seeing 2nd rate college hockey. As a fan, that sounds awful. The majority of Gopher fans I talk to classify the move to the Big10 as a money grab and has diminished the quality of hockey and their interest in it.

Another reason Minnesota didn't want to go is because they actually lost a lot of money going to the B1G. They lost their FSN contract which was nearly $500k per year. I still think the quality of play will be just fine after a bit of time. Wisconsin will be back, PSU is looking better, Notre Dame is usually decent and Minnesota/Michigan will be towards the top more often than not.

In all honesty I think Gopher fans are more upset about being forcibly separated from the same conference as North Dakota than anything. Say what you want, but you know it's not the same without being in the same conference together. Most UND fans I talk to here in Grand Forks feel the same way. They greatly miss being in a conference with Minnesota because that rivalry was quite possibly the best thing in college sports. They're not as upset because they still have quite a few former conference mates in their conference and UND hockey is still far and away the king sport at the University, so fans will go and watch no matter what. That's not the case at Minnesota where they only have Wisconsin left from the former conference and they just finished 2 of the worst seasons in program history. Tough to be excited as a fan when your team is slightly down and there's only one team on your conference schedule that's been there for many years and they're absolutely pitiful. 

[The Sicatoka]

22 minutes ago, GFG said:

Tough to be excited as a fan when your team is slightly down and there's only one team on your conference schedule that's been there for many years and they're absolutely pitiful. 

< words here about lipstick and pigs > 

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

38 minutes ago, GFG said:

Another reason Minnesota didn't want to go is because they actually lost a lot of money going to the B1G. They lost their FSN contract which was nearly $500k per year. I still think the quality of play will be just fine after a bit of time. Wisconsin will be back, PSU is looking better, Notre Dame is usually decent and Minnesota/Michigan will be towards the top more often than not.

In all honesty I think Gopher fans are more upset about being forcibly separated from the same conference as North Dakota than anything. Say what you want, but you know it's not the same without being in the same conference together. Most UND fans I talk to here in Grand Forks feel the same way. They greatly miss being in a conference with Minnesota because that rivalry was quite possibly the best thing in college sports. They're not as upset because they still have quite a few former conference mates in their conference and UND hockey is still far and away the king sport at the University, so fans will go and watch no matter what. That's not the case at Minnesota where they only have Wisconsin left from the former conference and they just finished 2 of the worst seasons in program history. Tough to be excited as a fan when your team is slightly down and there's only one team on your conference schedule that's been there for many years and they're absolutely pitiful. 

I would love to be in the same conference as UMN to reconnect the best rivalry in college hockey but not if it means going to the BIG10.  I feel like we'd be giving up 5 good/developing rivalries with UMD, DU, Miami, SCSU, and UNO to gain 1 great rivalry in UMN. It's the same issue UMN is currently facing in the BIG, our fans would not be very excited about playing MSU, PSU, and OSU four times each year.

[UNDvince97-01]

23 minutes ago, InHeavenThereIsNoBeer said:

I would love to be in the same conference as UMN to reconnect the best rivalry in college hockey but not if it means going to the BIG10.  I feel like we'd be giving up 5 good/developing rivalries with UMD, DU, Miami, SCSU, and UNO to gain 1 great rivalry in UMN. It's the same issue UMN is currently facing in the BIG, our fans would not be very excited about playing MSU, PSU, and OSU four times each year.

Good point.

However, not that long ago UND fans weren't too excited about Miami, UNO or SCSU either.

Even Duluth and maybe Denver have escalated over the last few years.

 

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

6 minutes ago, UNDvince97-01 said:

Good point.

However, not that long ago UND fans weren't too excited about Miami, UNO or SCSU either.

Even Duluth and maybe Denver have escalated over the last few years.

 

True, but I think a big part of those rivalries developing is the fact that UND fans can drive to the majority of those schools for an away road game. Driving to UMD, SCSU, and UNO is very doable for a weekend. Also, the teams generally have hockey as their #1 or #2 sport thus pumping out competitive teams year after year which helps build a rivalry between fanbases. I don't see that with MSU or OSU... PSU will obviously get better so they have potential but it's an expensive flight for either fanbase. 

[UNDvince97-01]

27 minutes ago, InHeavenThereIsNoBeer said:

True, but I think a big part of those rivalries developing is the fact that UND fans can drive to the majority of those schools for an away road game. Driving to UMD, SCSU, and UNO is very doable for a weekend. Also, the teams generally have hockey as their #1 or #2 sport thus pumping out competitive teams year after year which helps build a rivalry between fanbases. I don't see that with MSU or OSU... PSU will obviously get better so they have potential but it's an expensive flight for either fanbase. 

And I agree.  If we get revenue of some sort and the scheduling we would want, this would be the biggest concession for UND hockey fanbase in a quid pro quo scenario.  I'd still point to the BTN here, but your point is valid.

However, don't sell short the pride of UND hockey fans to travel to those campuses and venues.

The interest in that could grow, just as our interest in games with Miami, SCSU and UNO has.