UND Football Expectations

[Teeder11]

I would argue that Roger Thomas was the Athletic Director that hurt UND football the most by using the wait and see approach, rather than being proactive like NDSU.  We had gone ahead of them in football, now look at where the programs are at. 

 

It's always dangerous to dredge up the past, but here goes: there were reasons SU was able to "afford" to make the move, and why UND felt it could not. UND's administration, at the time, did not want to rape academics and low-ball faculty hires (by using GTAs) and engage in other shell games that Chapman was so adept at back in the day to make it work.  Now, as history shows us, if you" just win baby," the public is willing to look the other way and let that stuff slide -- so we probably could have/should have done it.  I am sure there are many in our own fan base that would have been ok with UND getting "creative" with the books to get a jumpstart on a transition, but at the time, for good or for bad, Kupchella and the boys (no female VPs at the time) didn't want to go down that path.  Sometimes I think that we lose sight on here that these administrators are trying to run an entire university and are not exclusively fixated on athletics like we are.

 

EDIT: Every time I wheel this out someone always pipes up and asks -- "what changed for UND, then?"  I will try to get out ahead of that one this time by simply saying that the total and utter collapse of the NCC is what shifted the entire paradigm and forced UND to make the leap.  

[UND-FB-FAN]

I would argue that Roger Thomas was the Athletic Director that hurt UND football the most by using the wait and see approach, rather than being proactive like NDSU. We had gone ahead of them in football, now look at where the programs are at.

There's no question about it; UND should have made the move up with NDSU. Bit that's in the past, whereas the Faison/administration support issue is yet contemporary.

[Csonked Out]

I would argue that Roger Thomas was the Athletic Director that hurt UND football the most by using the wait and see approach, rather than being proactive like NDSU. We had gone ahead of them in football, now look at where the programs are at.

It just shows how much poor coaching and recruiting can set a program back. NDSU had the right coach in place and recruited from the area. How would things look if we had Bubba from day 1 of the transition instead of Mussman? All other reasons aside, this is the reason for our problems and our solution is already in year 2. It didn't break overnight and it won't fix overnight.

[CMSioux]

It's so easy to be an arm-chair administrator. The issue was much more deeper than just saying "Let's go DI" The two schools were facing different issues and challenges at the time. 

[nodakhoops]

 

 

 

Thought this might be a great place for this. A great read about Eastern Washington and why Football and Basketball success matters.....record enrollments for multiple years in a row.

 

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/may/19/ewus-athletic-dominance-builds-statewide-image/

 

I look at North Dakota and I see the same thing. NDSU's success in BB and FB are giving them tons and tons of exposure and cred around the state and in a year or two they'll be kicking UNDs tail in enrollment if they aren't already......be interested to see what FR and Soph classes sizes are at each school.

 

This is why UND NEEDS to invest in FB and BB. GF might be a hockey town, but ND is a football and basketball state. MN claims to be the state of hockey but there are still way more kids that play football and basketball by large numbers. 

 

Winning on Saturdays in the fall and on the hardwood in March are what makes winning athletic departments and Universities. 

 

If UND can turn FB and BB in D1 winners there is no doubt in my mind UND will see a jump in $ and enrollment numbers because of it. I think this is what UND-FB Fan was getting at. Sometimes you need to spend money to make money and if UND spent more in those areas they might make more. 

 

If UND has one of the best hockey programs in the country a consistent playoff FB team and a BB team that makes the NCAAs every 2-3 years the athletic department and University will reach heights never seen before. 

[fightingsioux4life]

Or better yet, Mussman should never had been hired in the first place. That is why I lost interest in the football program during his regime. This has been my problem with the ADs office for some time. They never went out of their comfort zone to hire an "outsider". Saying that, I am happy that they hired Berry. Hiring him at this juncture of the hockey program is a no-brainer. Conversely, Mussman's hiring was a joke. A friend of mine who played during the early 90's asked me why I quit following the football team during Muss' second or third season. My response was.......as soon as UND starts taking football seriously, I would once again take UND football seriously. That didn't happen until a year and a half ago. Unfortunately, the damage was done and Bubba will need a year or two more to clean the Muss that was left for him.

Hockey will always be the #1 sport at UND as long as it is successful. It is just the way it is, mostly because of its tradition of being an elite program. It also doesn't hurt that GF is a hockey town. However, when football becomes relevant again, people will rally around them. The good news is Bubba seems to be on the right track.

This is unacceptable for a school that moved all their programs up to Division I.  If we wanted to maintain a "hockey-only" attitude, we should have stayed in Division II and joined the NSIC.  But we didnt', so we need to stop focusing on one sport and letting the others twist in the wind.  Enough is enough.

[tnt]

It's so easy to be an arm-chair administrator. The issue was much more deeper than just saying "Let's go DI" The two schools were facing different issues and challenges at the time. 

But the sentiment is that Brian Faison doesn't care about football.  Is he not tied to the same restraints as past Athletic Directors?  I see a great new football facility going up, and maybe he wasn't the author of it, but he has some credit in getting it through all the red tape and even some funding aspects.  Just don't think that the attitude that Faison cares less about football, or other sports other than hockey are accurate. 

[fightingsioux4life]

But the sentiment is that Brian Faison doesn't care about football.  Is he not tied to the same restraints as past Athletic Directors?  I see a great new football facility going up, and maybe he wasn't the author of it, but he has some credit in getting it through all the red tape and even some funding aspects.  Just  think that the attitude that Faison doesn't care about football, or other sports other than hockey are accurate. 

To be fair, the IPF is for all programs on campus, not just football.  But you are right, Faison has done some good things here.  It's the "hockey-only" culture that has to change.  And that will take some time.

[CMSioux]

Thought this might be a great place for this. A great read about Eastern Washington and why Football and Basketball success matters.....record enrollments for multiple years in a row.

 

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/may/19/ewus-athletic-dominance-builds-statewide-image/

 

I look at North Dakota and I see the same thing. NDSU's success in BB and FB are giving them tons and tons of exposure and cred around the state and in a year or two they'll be kicking UNDs tail in enrollment if they aren't already......be interested to see what FR and Soph classes sizes are at each school.

 

This is why UND NEEDS to invest in FB and BB. GF might be a hockey town, but ND is a football and basketball state. MN claims to be the state of hockey but there are still way more kids that play football and basketball by large numbers. 

 

Winning on Saturdays in the fall and on the hardwood in March are what makes winning athletic departments and Universities. 

 

If UND can turn FB and BB in D1 winners there is no doubt in my mind UND will see a jump in $ and enrollment numbers because of it. I think this is what UND-FB Fan was getting at. Sometimes you need to spend money to make money and if UND spent more in those areas they might make more. 

 

If UND has one of the best hockey programs in the country a consistent playoff FB team and a BB team that makes the NCAAs every 2-3 years the athletic department and University will reach heights never seen before. 

Enrollment is not a measure of success it is already being looked at for capping at UND or raising standards to control enrollments - biggest doesn't mean the best when it comes to the academics - can you handle the enrollment you have - how many graduate assistants are teaching classes vs professors, can students get the classes they need to graduate in 4 years. It gets so myopic here sometimes. 

[Old Time Hockey]

This is unacceptable for a school that moved all their programs up to Division I. If we wanted to maintain a "hockey-only" attitude, we should have stayed in Division II and joined the NSIC. But we didnt', so we need to stop focusing on one sport and letting the others twist in the wind. Enough is enough.

.

When you think Duke, you think BB. When you think Alabama, you think FB. When you think UND, you think ..............?

Duke has a football team in which many fans are passionate about, but you don't really think of Duke as a FB school. Same could be said about Alabama and BB. Like it or not, UND is known for its hockey. This doesn't mean that the other sports can't be competitive. It's just the way it is. I don't think the NFL is looking at Bubba or Brian Jones as potential coaching candidates. Hakstol just signed a deal with the Flyers as the first college coach to make the jump since Badger Bob. I'm not saying scrap the other sports, I love going to football games when we are competitive. It's not a hockey only attitude, it's just the fact that people are more supportive/interested in teams that have more success. Sorry, but that is the reality!

[The Sicatoka]

.

When you think Duke, you think BB. When you think Alabama, you think FB. When you think UND, you think ..............?

Duke has a football team in which many fans are passionate about, but you don't really think of Duke as a FB school. Same could be said about Alabama and BB. Like it or not, UND is known for its hockey. This doesn't mean that the other sports can't be competitive. It's just the way it is. I don't think the NFL is looking at Bubba or Brian Jones as potential coaching candidates. Hakstol just signed a deal with the Flyers as the first college coach to make the jump since Badger Bob. I'm not saying scrap the other sports, I love going to football games when we are competitive. It's not a hockey only attitude, it's just the fact that people are more supportive/interested in teams that have more success. Sorry, but that is the reality!

 

And people also forget you can be good at more than one thing:

 

Florida Gator football and basketball both peaked in the same time frame. 

Oklahoma was #2 in football and MBB the same season. 

And look at Wisconsin FB and MBB right now. 

 

If you want UND FB or MBB to be better, support them. 

[gundy1124]

.

When you think Duke, you think BB. When you think Alabama, you think FB. When you think UND, you think ..............?

Duke has a football team in which many fans are passionate about, but you don't really think of Duke as a FB school. Same could be said about Alabama and BB. Like it or not, UND is known for its hockey. This doesn't mean that the other sports can't be competitive. It's just the way it is. I don't think the NFL is looking at Bubba or Brian Jones as potential coaching candidates. Hakstol just signed a deal with the Flyers as the first college coach to make the jump since Badger Bob. I'm not saying scrap the other sports, I love going to football games when we are competitive. It's not a hockey only attitude, it's just the fact that people are more supportive/interested in teams that have more success. Sorry, but that is the reality!

 

Reality - Who is denying UND is most known for hockey?

[UND-FB-FAN]

.

When you think Duke, you think BB. When you think Alabama, you think FB. When you think UND, you think ..............?

Duke has a football team in which many fans are passionate about, but you don't really think of Duke as a FB school. Same could be said about Alabama and BB. Like it or not, UND is known for its hockey. This doesn't mean that the other sports can't be competitive. It's just the way it is. I don't think the NFL is looking at Bubba or Brian Jones as potential coaching candidates. Hakstol just signed a deal with the Flyers as the first college coach to make the jump since Badger Bob. I'm not saying scrap the other sports, I love going to football games when we are competitive. It's not a hockey only attitude, it's just the fact that people are more supportive/interested in teams that have more success. Sorry, but that is the reality!

 

 

Yes, we understand UND is a hockey school, but that is not where this argument is based.  Also, this is not an argument about revenue generation, because, again, we all know UND men's hockey will forever be the king in that category. Rather, when I created this thread, I was concerned about the support and attention given to non-hockey programs at UND. I am concerned about the dedication and ingenuity that the athletic department as a whole allocates towards UND football and basketball. Basically, I believe a large portion of the department is meant to focus on only hockey, per the direction of Brian Faison. 

 

Support of multiple programs, particularly the two most popular collegiate sports in the country, football and basketball, should be conducted by any athletic administration. Examples of regional FCS programs that are above average to good in more than one sport include NDSU, UNI, Montana, and South Dakota State. UND should be in that category too; that is, having at least two men's programs that are annually above average to good. Fortunately, It does appear that UND football will be that second program to UND hockey.

[Hawkster]

It's always dangerous to dredge up the past, but here goes: there were reasons SU was able to "afford" to make the move, and why UND felt it could not. UND's administration, at the time, did not want to rape academics and low-ball faculty hires (by using GTAs) and engage in other shell games that Chapman was so adept at back in the day to make it work.  Now, as history shows us, if you" just win baby," the public is willing to look the other way and let that stuff slide -- so we probably could have/should have done it.  I am sure there are many in our own fan base that would have been ok with UND getting "creative" with the books to get a jumpstart on a transition, but at the time, for good or for bad, Kupchella and the boys (no female VPs at the time) didn't want to go down that path.  Sometimes I think that we lose sight on here that these administrators are trying to run an entire university and are not exclusively fixated on athletics like we are.

 

EDIT: Every time I wheel this out someone always pipes up and asks -- "what changed for UND, then?"  I will try to get out ahead of that one this time by simply saying that the total and utter collapse of the NCC is what shifted the entire paradigm and forced UND to make the leap.  

It will always bug me that we waited to move up.   No guts, no glory.   And it shows here at UND too.

[Teeder11]

It will always bug me that we waited to move up. No guts, no glory. And it shows here at UND too.

I agree in hindsight. But it seemed prudent at the time by those, who were in charge and who would have to answer for it if things went badly, to be more cautious. Different time, different priorities.

[bison73]

It's always dangerous to dredge up the past, but here goes: there were reasons SU was able to "afford" to make the move, and why UND felt it could not. UND's administration, at the time, did not want to rape academics and low-ball faculty hires (by using GTAs) and engage in other shell games that Chapman was so adept at back in the day to make it work.  Now, as history shows us, if you" just win baby," the public is willing to look the other way and let that stuff slide -- so we probably could have/should have done it.  I am sure there are many in our own fan base that would have been ok with UND getting "creative" with the books to get a jumpstart on a transition, but at the time, for good or for bad, Kupchella and the boys (no female VPs at the time) didn't want to go down that path.  Sometimes I think that we lose sight on here that these administrators are trying to run an entire university and are not exclusively fixated on athletics like we are.

 

EDIT: Every time I wheel this out someone always pipes up and asks -- "what changed for UND, then?"  I will try to get out ahead of that one this time by simply saying that the total and utter collapse of the NCC is what shifted the entire paradigm and forced UND to make the leap.  

 

That's a lot of innuendo. Have any facts to back it up? Kind of a strange way to make excuses for the position you are in.

[Bison Dan]

It's always dangerous to dredge up the past, but here goes: there were reasons SU was able to "afford" to make the move, and why UND felt it could not. UND's administration, at the time, did not want to rape academics and low-ball faculty hires (by using GTAs) and engage in other shell games that Chapman was so adept at back in the day to make it work.  Now, as history shows us, if you" just win baby," the public is willing to look the other way and let that stuff slide -- so we probably could have/should have done it.  I am sure there are many in our own fan base that would have been ok with UND getting "creative" with the books to get a jumpstart on a transition, but at the time, for good or for bad, Kupchella and the boys (no female VPs at the time) didn't want to go down that path.  Sometimes I think that we lose sight on here that these administrators are trying to run an entire university and are not exclusively fixated on athletics like we are.

 

EDIT: Every time I wheel this out someone always pipes up and asks -- "what changed for UND, then?"  I will try to get out ahead of that one this time by simply saying that the total and utter collapse of the NCC is what shifted the entire paradigm and forced UND to make the leap.  

Hard to believe that you actually believe your BS.  UND didn't move up because they already had a successful DI sport and were happy with DII in all others.  UND did their best to try and have the SU's fail in their transition to DI, but we all know how that worked out.  Because of NDSU's success in their transition UND athletic dept was under a lot of pressure to move up.  They did so without a plan unlike the SU's which had studied the move for years.  UND's logic was if the SU's can do it'll be no problem for us.  Your transition period was by far the worst in the Dakota's and it's still a problem today.(your standings in the BSC all sports standing shows this)    

[darell1976]

Hard to believe that you actually believe your BS. UND didn't move up because they already had a successful DI sport and were happy with DII in all others. UND did their best to try and have the SU's fail in their transition to DI, but we all know how that worked out. Because of NDSU's success in their transition UND athletic dept was under a lot of pressure to move up. They did so without a plan unlike the SU's which had studied the move for years. UND's logic was if the SU's can do it'll be no problem for us. Your transition period was by far the worst in the Dakota's and it's still a problem today.(your standings in the BSC all sports standing shows this)

And how did UND try and make the SU's fail?? By not scheduling you both well USD didn't schedule you two either. And guess what SDSU got over it and signed a H/H with us in football while you guys still hold a grudge. So cry a river on Bisonswille not here.

[UNDColorado]

Hard to believe that you actually believe your BS.  UND didn't move up because they already had a successful DI sport and were happy with DII in all others.  UND did their best to try and have the SU's fail in their transition to DI, but we all know how that worked out.  Because of NDSU's success in their transition UND athletic dept was under a lot of pressure to move up.  They did so without a plan unlike the SU's which had studied the move for years.  UND's logic was if the SU's can do it'll be no problem for us.  Your transition period was by far the worst in the Dakota's and it's still a problem today.(your standings in the BSC all sports standing shows this)    

 

Of all the Bison fans that post here; you are by far the least credible and hands down the dumbest. I bet people don't even take you seriously on bville. 

[jdub27]

That's a lot of innuendo. Have any facts to back it up? Kind of a strange way to make excuses for the position you are in.

Is the financial mess that Chapman left NDSU in not enough facts for you?  

 

 

Hard to believe that you actually believe your BS.  UND didn't move up because they already had a successful DI sport and were happy with DII in all others.  UND did their best to try and have the SU's fail in their transition to DI, but we all know how that worked out.  Because of NDSU's success in their transition UND athletic dept was under a lot of pressure to move up.  They did so without a plan unlike the SU's which had studied the move for years.  UND's logic was if the SU's can do it'll be no problem for us.  Your transition period was by far the worst in the Dakota's and it's still a problem today.(your standings in the BSC all sports standing shows this)    

Let the ignorance shine bright Dan.  Teeder's points are spot on but I know it doesn't go along with the revisionist history taught at FU.  Since you're so enlightened, share the details of NDSU's years long study.  Was it to keep women's participation numbers down, giving more money to go around to the athletes that were there but allow men twice as many opportunities than females to participate at the D-1 level?

[Bison Dan]

And how did UND try and make the SU's fail?? By not scheduling you both well USD didn't schedule you two either. And guess what SDSU got over it and signed a H/H with us in football while you guys still hold a grudge. So cry a river on Bisonswille not here.

What's to cry over.  It just made us stronger and more successful.  Because of your arrogance & jealousy you are where you're at - dead last in the 

BSC.  You have no one to blame but the leadership or lack of it.  

[Bison Dan]

Is the financial mess that Chapman left NDSU in not enough facts for you?  

 

 

Let the ignorance shine bright Dan.  Teeder's points are spot on but I know it doesn't go along with the revisionist history taught at FU.  Since you're so enlightened, share the details of NDSU's years long study.  Was it to keep women's participation numbers down, giving more money to go around to the athletes that were there but allow men twice as many opportunities than females to participate at the D-1 level?

You do it your way and we'll do it ours.  Who's under the NCAA's watchful eyes?  

[siouxjoy]

Who's under the NCAA's watchful eyes?  

 

You're welcome. 

[jdub27]

You do it your way and we'll do it ours.  Who's under the NCAA's watchful eyes?  

 

Glad you're on record supporting an absurd disparity in opportunities provided for female student athletes.  Just in case you forgot the numbers: 282 unduplicated men participants (68.6%) and 129 unduplicated women participants (31.4%).  I'm sure that won't be an issue at some point in the future.

[darell1976]

What's to cry over. It just made us stronger and more successful. Because of your arrogance & jealousy you are where you're at - dead last in the

BSC. You have no one to blame but the leadership or lack of it.

Why do you care about how we are doing in the BSC? Jealous you guys couldn't get in...twice? But thanks for your interest in UND and Big Sky athletics.