UND and the Big Sky could go FBS

[The Sicatoka]

But, NCAA rules require that conferences are not allow to move to FBS, but that teams must receive an invite from an existing FBS conference.

OK, so what's to stop FBS conference X from inviting all of the teams, each individually, from FCS conference Y?

[Herd]

OK, so what's to stop FBS conference X from inviting all of the teams, each individually, from FCS conference Y?

Let's see, where to start . . . the P5, the NCAA, the existing rules, general logic, etc, etc.

So the Sunbelt wants to have 25 teams? They want to split revenue with 25 teams? The Big Sky wants to no longer have football? What kind of sense does this make? None. So the whole conf is going to make their FBS intentions known to the NCAA without anyone noticing?

The rules are there to limit the joining of FBS football, and to keep it relatively exclusive. If the BSC would try to get all its teams in the Sunbelt, so they can pull them back into the BSC the next year, that's your logic? Sorry, they are going to get some help from the NCAA if they think they can pull that off. The BSC must think it's pretty special if they think the rules don't apply to their actions. Maybe if they do it real quietly, no one will notice.

And, what's the possible advantage for the Sunbelt to invite a dozen BSC teams? I don't see any, other than it will cost current Sunbelt teams some of their share of revenue.

If I'm an FCS team, and I want to move FBS, I want to beat the other teams in my league to the punch, not compete against them for limited spots.. There is no advantage for a large group to try to do it together.

[The Sicatoka]

By your own words the key requirement is ...

... teams must receive an invite from an existing FBS conference.

I don't see a limit on the number of invitations a conference can give.

Wild? Outlandish? Unprecedented? Yes. Yes. And ... yes.

Possible? Yes.

[Herd]

By your own words the key requirement is ...

I don't see a limit on the number of invitations a conference can give.

Wild? Outlandish? Unprecedented? Yes. Yes. And ... yes.

Possible? Yes.

And women could start dominating the NFL, there are no rules against it.

[The Sicatoka]

And women could start dominating the NFL, there are no rules against it.

Place kicking. Punting. Heck, the way contact is being elimi-ruled from the game slowly but surely, why not.

[Herd]

Place kicking. Punting. Heck, the way contact is being elimi-ruled from the game slowly but surely, why not.

Well then, good luck to you! May the best woma . . . Umm, Conf win.

[SiouxVolley]

Let's see, where to start . . . the P5, the NCAA, the existing rules, general logic, etc, etc.

So the Sunbelt wants to have 25 teams? They want to split revenue with 25 teams? The Big Sky wants to no longer have football? What kind of sense does this make? None. So the whole conf is going to make their FBS intentions known to the NCAA without anyone noticing?

The rules are there to limit the joining of FBS football, and to keep it relatively exclusive. If the BSC would try to get all its teams in the Sunbelt, so they can pull them back into the BSC the next year, that's your logic? Sorry, they are going to get some help from the NCAA if they think they can pull that off. The BSC must think it's pretty special if they think the rules don't apply to their actions. Maybe if they do it real quietly, no one will notice.

The NCAA is not going to bat an eye if one conference - the Big Sky - attempts to replace what was formerly an FBS WAC. A third FBS conference in the west is needed. A fifth one in the Midwest is not needed. NCAA rule changes take two years to implement. Once it starts, there nothing the NCAA can do to stop it. If the Big Ten wanted 20 teams, the NCAA wouldn't stop it,but your saying if the Sun Belt has 20 teams for two years, the NCAA would raise holy hell. Good luck convincing them that will happen.

[zonadub]

The NCAA is not going to bat an eye if one conference - the Big Sky - attempts to replace what was formerly an FBS WAC. A third FBS conference in the west is needed. ...

While I like your predictions, it seems that there is a greater need for an FCS conference in the west, since the Big Sky is the only game in town, so to speak. Now, if Idaho and New Mexico State were to join 6 teams in a split-off from the Big Sky and leave 7 or 8 teams in FCS, well, who knows?

[BobIwabuchiFan]

I just like the idea of thinking big! We didn't take that opportunity when NDSU moved up and I hope we don't let ourselves miss the next big opportunity because we chose to think small...

[Herd]

The NCAA is not going to bat an eye if one conference - the Big Sky - attempts to replace what was formerly an FBS WAC. A third FBS conference in the west is needed. A fifth one in the Midwest is not needed. NCAA rule changes take two years to implement. Once it starts, there nothing the NCAA can do to stop it. If the Big Ten wanted 20 teams, the NCAA wouldn't stop it,but your saying if the Sun Belt has 20 teams for two years, the NCAA would raise holy hell. Good luck convincing them that will happen.

The B1G is a P5 FBS school. It does what it wants. The Sunbelt is not, it asks permission. The B1G, P5 and NCAA, all of whom agree that the current FBS has too many teams and is already watered down, is not going to stand idly by while 13 more are added in one shot. Ummm, No.

And please explain why the Sunbelt would even want to . . . Why?

[farce poobah]

This thread is AWESOME!!!

After a decade of NDSU fans telling UND to think bigger, now there's NDSU fans (fans but mostly one) telling UND to think smaller.

This is too cool.

[nd1sufan]

This thread is AWESOME!!!

After a decade of NDSU fans telling UND to think bigger, now there's NDSU fans (fans but mostly one) telling UND to think smaller.

This is too cool.

I think maybe they are just saying maybe you should be somewhat competitive in the division you are in before talking about moving up.

[Dagger]

Didn't the Bison move up when they weren't very good.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Ouch!!! Dagger to the heart!

[darell1976]

Didn't the Bison move up when they weren't very good.

You mean when they never hosted a playoff game in the Fargodome era.

[mksioux]

And please explain why the Sunbelt would even want to . . . Why?

Right now, the Sun Belt has absolutely no incentive to do it. Under SiouxVolley's theory, the Sun Belt contractually agreed to it a few years ago. His theory is that the Sun Belt had an incentive to make some sort of agreement like this back when Idaho was shopping around the WAC. I think his theory is that that the Sun Belt did not want the WAC to encroach on its territory and preferred that it stay out west. He thinks that Idaho was courting the MVFC (and maybe other FCS conferences?) and the Sun Belt didn't want that. Therefore, he thinks an agreement was entered into back then wherein the Sun Belt would let Idaho in for a few years until the Big Sky was ready to move up, then it would take in the Big Sky schools, then they'd break away two years later. Thus, ensuring that any new FBS conference stayed out west. However, SiouxVolley admits he has no evidence that such an agreement actually exists. Moreover, he hasn't really refuted the more probable possibility that no FCS conference was ready to move up at the time and all of them rejected Idaho/WAC. That, to me, is where the actual evidence lies. WAC football died because it couldn't attract any schools. It's probably as simple as that. There isn't always some grand conspiracy. Maybe the Sun Belt didn't want central/eastern competition from the WAC, but ultimately, it didn't have to worry about it because the WAC couldn't attract any conference to move up and WAC football simply died.

SiouxVolley, what evidence is there that the MVFC or another other FCS conference was ready to make the move up if Idaho and the Sun Belt hadn't orchestrated this plan? And, moreover, why would Idaho not favor a sure thing with the MVFC or some other conference over a not-sure thing with the Big Sky? It seems to me that Idaho would have preserved the WAC with any schools ready, willing, and able to move up before the WAC charter died. Under your own theory, it is not a sure thing that the Big Sky will get enough schools FBS ready to make the move. I just don't see any evidence that Idaho had any conference seriously interested in moving up to FBS to save WAC football.

[SiouxVolley]

SiouxVolley, what evidence is there that the MVFC or another other FCS conference was ready to make the move up if Idaho and the Sun Belt hadn't orchestrated this plan? And, moreover, why would Idaho not favor a sure thing with the MVFC or some other conference over a not-sure thing with the Big Sky? It seems to me that Idaho would have preserved the WAC with any schools ready, willing, and able to move up before the WAC charter died. Under your own theory, it is not a sure thing that the Big Sky will get enough schools FBS ready to make the move. I just don't see any evidence that Idaho had any conference seriously interested in moving up to FBS to save WAC football.

N

UNI, Ind St, and Ill St were making a lot of noise 18 months ago about moving up to FBS. The MAC was never going to invite them, (except possibly Ill St, but N Ill is blocking them) because the MAC wants east coast schools with TV eyeballs like JMU, Stony Brook, and Delaware. UNI was serious about FBS in 2012, but it wasn't from the MAC.

http://www.northern-iowan.org/uni-exploring-move-to-fbs-football-1.2766658#.UyB4F_muSUY

The WAC commissioner was quoted as saying a midwest FCS league was in merger talks with the WAC. That midwest league could only have been the MVC.

From a business standpoint, the Sun Belt had every reason to stop Idaho and NMSU from forming a Midwest or Southeast FBS league, which the WAC was threatening to do. The Sun Belt had already lost members and was threatened with losing more. But individually, a new FBS conference would have been expensive to Idaho and NMSU, so the Sun Belt found it could take over those programs by offering then affiliates spots and effectively kill the FBS WAC. Why didn't Idaho just drop to FCS ? That has never been answered. Idaho is joining the Big Sky, but not dropping to FCS. Why would the Big Sky agree to take Idaho for other sports without Idaho dropping football to FCS? That never made a lick of business sense. The Sun Belt would lose by allowing another league to form, but if they delay another FBS league from forming for five years and they get payments from all the Big Sky teams for two years, the Sun Belt would have a higher NAV with the Big Sky FBS. To the Sun Belt, it makes financial and business sense to give Idaho a home for two years, incubate Big Sky football starting in 2016, and then hatch a Big Sky FBS league in 2018.

Why didn't the Sun Belt just give Idaho affiliate membership until 2015, but then gives a two year conditional membership? Why is Idaho scheduling FBS games and no FCS games well after it's football is forced back to the Big Sky? Those questions have never been answered.

The key things to watch are if UCDavis, Cal Poly, and UND make a move to increase seating to at least 15,000 by 2016, and if Montana and Montana State make a move to have 16 programs (from 15) by 2016, FBS is coming to the Big Sky via Idaho and the Sun Belt.

The Big Sky will not ever have the TV contracts or NCAA voting rights like the SEC and Big Ten. It will be an equal to the MAC and Sun Belt as a second class NCAA conference. But it will have more stature than 3rd class FCS leagues like the CAA, MVFC, and Southland. One of those leagues was going to take the place of the WAC, and I'm just glad that the Big Sky will be in the winning position.

[Bison Dan]

N

UNI, Ind St, and Ill St were making a lot of noise 18 months ago about moving up to FBS. The MAC was never going to invite them, (except possibly Ill St, but N Ill is blocking them) because the MAC wants east coast schools with TV eyeballs like JMU, Stony Brook, and Delaware. UNI was serious about FBS in 2012, but it wasn't from the MAC.

http://www.northern-...58#.UyB4F_muSUY

The WAC commissioner was quoted as saying a midwest FCS league was in merger talks with the WAC. That midwest league could only have been the MVC.

From a business standpoint, the Sun Belt had every reason to stop Idaho and NMSU from forming a Midwest or Southeast FBS league, which the WAC was threatening to do. The Sun Belt had already lost members and was threatened with losing more. But individually, a new FBS conference would have been expensive to Idaho and NMSU, so the Sun Belt found it could take over those programs by offering then affiliates spots and effectively kill the FBS WAC. Why didn't Idaho just drop to FCS ? That has never been answered. Idaho is joining the Big Sky, but not dropping to FCS. Why would the Big Sky agree to take Idaho for other sports without Idaho dropping football to FCS? That never made a lick of business sense. The Sun Belt would lose by allowing another league to form, but if they delay another FBS league from forming for five years and they get payments from all the Big Sky teams for two years, the Sun Belt would have a higher NAV with the Big Sky FBS. To the Sun Belt, it makes financial and business sense to give Idaho a home for two years, incubate Big Sky football starting in 2016, and then hatch a Big Sky FBS league in 2018.

Why didn't the Sun Belt just give Idaho affiliate membership until 2015, but then gives a two year conditional membership? Why is Idaho scheduling FBS games and no FCS games well after it's football is forced back to the Big Sky? Those questions have never been answered.

The key things to watch are if UCDavis, Cal Poly, and UND make a move to increase seating to at least 15,000 by 2016, and if Montana and Montana State make a move to have 16 programs (from 15) by 2016, FBS is coming to the Big Sky via Idaho and the Sun Belt.

The Big Sky will not ever have the TV contracts or NCAA voting rights like the SEC and Big Ten. It will be an equal to the MAC and Sun Belt as a second class NCAA conference. But it will have more stature than 3rd class FCS leagues like the CAA, MVFC, and Southland. One of those leagues was going to take the place of the WAC, and I'm just glad that the Big Sky will be in the winning position.

First off - UNI, MSU, and UM are all having money problems. The link about UNI is old news and the Iowa Leg. floated the idea of UNI dropping all their sports last year. I doubt they'll get any help from them. Cal Poly averages what 6000 a game. How is UND going to upgrade the Alerus and who is going to pay for it? Now this doesn't mean the NCAA isn't going to revamp the FB divisions in the coming years and there might be some realignment.

[JohnboyND7]

The big sky is probably more than happy to have Idaho back with or without football.

[SiouxVolley]

First off - UNI, MSU, and UM are all having money problems. The link about UNI is old news and the Iowa Leg. floated the idea of UNI dropping all their sports last year. I doubt they'll get any help from them. Cal Poly averages what 6000 a game. How is UND going to upgrade the Alerus and who is going to pay for it? Now this doesn't mean the NCAA isn't going to revamp the FB divisions in the coming years and there might be some realignment.

UM and MSU have money problems because their are FCS. The former Montana AD said they either had to go FBS or they had to go DII. FCS wasn't a long term option. UNI isn't an FBS option any more because the MVC can't merge with the WAC to get to FBS any longer. FCS is the problem: it won't last because there is no money in it.

The NCAA will have higher voting rights to the super conferences, but won't force the other FBS conferences down. FCS conferences are the real losers here. FCS conferences will be an informal division III within Division I. The MAC, Sun Belt, CUSA, American, MWC, and the Big Sky will be inbetween FCS and true FBS.

UND is going to upgrade Memorial as part of the phase II of the IPF, in my estimation. When Phase I of the IPF is finished, Phase II will be announced.

[82SiouxGuy]

UM and MSU have money problems because their are FCS. The former Montana AD said they either had to go FBS or they had to go DII. FCS wasn't a long term option. UNI isn't an FBS option any more because the MVC can't merge with the WAC to get to FBS.

UND is going to upgrade Memorial as part of the phase II of the IPF, in my estimation. When Phase I of the IPF is finished, Phase II will be announced.

Phase 2 has been announced, they just haven't finished raising money for it. Phase 2 includes coaches offices, student lounge, and weight room among other things. Phase 2 has nothing to do with Memorial. A renovation of Memorial would have to be a 3rd phase.

[SiouxVolley]

The big sky is probably more than happy to have Idaho back with or without football.

You know this how? Idaho adds nothing without football. Seattle or Denver would have been much stronger adds than an Idaho that didn't bring in football.

[Bison Dan]

UM and MSU have money problems because their are FCS. The former Montana AD said they either had to go FBS or they had to go DII. FCS wasn't a long term option. UNI isn't an FBS option any more because the MVC can't merge with the WAC to get to FBS any longer. FCS is the problem: it won't last because there is no money in it.

The NCAA will have higher voting rights to the super conferences, but won't force the other FBS conferences down. FCS conferences are the real losers here. FCS conferences will be an informal division III within Division I. The MAC, Sun Belt, CUSA, American, MWC, and the Big Sky will be inbetween FCS and true FBS.

UND is going to upgrade Memorial as part of the phase II of the IPF, in my estimation. When Phase I of the IPF is finished, Phase II will be announced.

Some teams going from FCS to FBS say that it will take an additional 4 million. Explain how keeping the same conference (BSC) schedule will bring in that additional revenue?

[The Sicatoka]

Some teams going from FCS to FBS say that it will take an additional 4 million.

Questions (don't know):

- Do those schools have the requisite 16 sports to be FBS? There's expense if they don't.

- Do those schools have the requisite grant-in-aid levels, in total, to be FBS? See NCAA DI Manual 2013-14 Section 20.9.3 for details. It's not just FB grants, but there are all-sport, athletic department, totals to hit as well.

- Do those schools have the funds to go from 63 to 85 scholarships (times two because of Title IX remember)?

- Do those schools have an existing travel budget that would support FBS (and potential longer travel), or are they in bus leagues?

If you had to add two sports, and 44 scholarships (for FB and Title IX) and maybe more for Section 20.9.3.2, and suddenly had to start flying to games, yeah, it'd add up fast. Won't disagree.

But if you already had 20 plus sports, more than enough grants, and were flying in a western US conference already, the issue becomes the 44 grants (for FB and Title IX), right? Well, that and stadium seats*.

*Attendance too you say? That's easy. It's the EMU solution. Money that's already going to support football gets run through this process.

[cberkas]

UM and MSU have money problems because their are FCS.

That's not true, Montana State spends it's money on facilities that don't benefit the Athletic Dept. It took Montana State 2 years to renovate Hamilton Hall, currently building Jake Jabs College of Business and Entrepreneurship (Jabs Hall), and have to remove asbestos out of Sherrick Hall that was found last year.

Montana State is about to spend 2.6 Million to upgrade the Brick Breeden Fieldhouse.

The Bobcat Stadium project hasn't been completed only the South end zone (Phase 2 & Phase 3), and part of that wasn't done (indoor viewing area - Phase 3). Still left to be done at Bobcat Stadium 38 SkySuites above the East grandstands (Phase 1), East grandstands renovation (Phase 4), and North end zone (Phase 5 & Phase 6). The planned Indoor Practice Facility (IPF) hasn't been designed yet which is part of the Bobcat Stadium expansion and renovation.

Montana will have 15 sports this year with the adding of Woman's Softball, but Montana State has only 14 sports. So what sports are they going to add if the Big Sky goes to FBS?