SWSiouxMN Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The main reason: Contract Law. UND (the State) signed an agreement with the wording "If UND does not adopt a new nickname and logo ... ". (Settlement Agreement, section 2.d, page 5) North Dakotans don't "weasel word" and do follow through on agreements, especially contracts. I don't want a judge to rule one day that the NCAA is free and clear to stick us back on the list as subject to the Policy. There's one way to ensure that doesn't happen. The one thing I have been wondering about North Dakota being included on the committee list of names, don't you think they would have perhaps have done some homework on adopting no nickname and making sure it could be used? If they know if can't be used, why included it on the list? Why waste peoples time and get their hopes up on something that potentially will not be used? We need to get moving on this one way or the other. The other fear I have is that if the ND legislature gets its way, does that mean that after the committee has to start all over again, meaning that it might be until 2020 before a name is finally adopted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The one thing I have been wondering about North Dakota being included on the committee list of names, don't you think they would have perhaps have done some homework on adopting no nickname and making sure it could be used? If they know if can't be used, why included it on the list? Why waste peoples time and get their hopes up on something that potentially will not be used? We need to get moving on this one way or the other. The other fear I have is that if the ND legislature gets its way, does that mean that after the committee has to start all over again, meaning that it might be until 2020 before a name is finally adopted? Can we ever go back? Do we have to (legal obligation) move forward? I think the answers are in here: "There are people who still think we can go back, but we can't," task force co-chair and UND alumna Sheri Kleinsasser Stockmoe said. Task force member and UND professor Jim Mochoruk said after extensively examining the settlement, he felt they had no other option. "We actually have a legal obligation to move on, I think," he said. Source (reprint of GF Herald): http://www.prairiebizmag.com/event/article/id/22000/#sthash.FeE0PujV.dpuf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 North Dakotans don't "weasel word" and do follow through on agreements, especially contracts. Now that is a fine legal argument. I'm sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayduke Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 One question: Anyone having any problem cheering for Zane McIntyre this year? You know, the guy who changed his name. Anyone? Bingo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 UND (the State) signed an agreement with the wording "If UND does not adopt a new nickname and logo ... ". (Settlement Agreement, section 2.d, page 5) North Dakotans don't "weasel word" and do follow through on agreements, especially contracts. Now that is a fine legal argument. I'm sold. There's the letter, and the spirit, of the agreement. The letter is open to interpretation (as Chewey and I agree). The spirit of the agreement? We're trying to get around it with "weasel words". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 One question: Anyone having any problem cheering for Zane McIntyre this year? You know, the guy who changed his name. Anyone? Last I heard, that name change was voluntary and done to respect his mother rather than forced by some outside entity so not exactly apples to apples there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Last I heard, that name change was voluntary and done to respect his mother rather than forced by some outside entity so not exactly apples to apples there. Then again, he chose to go with a new last name rather than just going with "Zane". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MafiaMan Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 "We actually have a legal obligation to move on...I think." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MafiaMan Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 One question: Anyone having any problem cheering for Zane McIntyre this year? You know, the guy who changed his name. Anyone? Doesn't that depend on what kind of car Zane drives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray77 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Doesn't that depend on what kind of car Zane drives? No, I think it depends on if he likes apples or oranges better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MafiaMan Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 No, I think it depends on if he likes apples or oranges better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxphan27 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 UND has changed their logo and/or brand many times over the last 130 years, not sure what your point is there. The Fighting Sioux nickname alone was rebranded multiple times in its existence. Where are you getting this millions of dollars number from? Even if that is the case, wouldn't the majority of it be the same dollars that would be used to implement the interlocking ND logo you want? I'd have a lot easier time believe the "No Logo/Nickname" crowd if it wasn't painfully obvious that it is a façade for being able to use Fighting Sioux as a de facto nickname. My point is the name University of North Dakota is what defines the university...not some nickname. Post #1246, to answer your question about the millions. I'm not part of the crowd thinking this is some way to keep using fighting Sioux. I would be proud as hell if we forged our way without a new, worthless, nickname. We are North Dakota - no further explanation necessary. I think you're kidding yourself if you think choosing a new nickname is going to make any difference in the minds and actions of those that chant Sioux at the end of the anthem, or do Sioux cheers, or wear Sioux clothing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 There's the letter, and the spirit, of the agreement. The letter is open to interpretation (as Chewey and I agree). The spirit of the agreement? We're trying to get around it with "weasel words". It's not trying to get around anything with "weasel words". North Dakotans do not suffer being dictated to. North Dakotans value both openness of dialogue and the responsibility to be frank and honest in their dealings. North Dakotans got dictated to - something that wound up not being within their control if they wanted to preserve the solvency/viability of the athletic programs at UND. North Dakotans did not get openness of dialogue or honesty or frankness in communications from NCAA or Kelley, et al or the SBoHE vis-a-vis the whole sordid history concerning this issue (retirement of the nickname irrespective of a 75% vote of approval at SL, etc.). North Dakotans are not getting honesty or respect or clarity with suppositions, scare tactics and faux exigencies asserted by Kelley, et al. North Dakotans are not getting fairness or respect or decency when plied with meaningless, ham fisted verbiage such as "let's move on", "let's let the healing process start", etc or assaulted with what appears to be a predisposed "process" for selecting a new nickname that's simply dressed up as a thorough and meaningful good faith protocol intended to get the input of the "stakeholders". North Dakotans did not even get frankness and clarity with the surrender agreement. There is no "weasel quotient" in either pointing out that it's ambiguous or making conclusions that appear obvious or, at least, possible as a result of that same ambiguity. The theme underlying paragraph 2d of the surrender agreement is what may or may not offend "the Policy." If UND did not receive namesake approval, it was to transition to a new nickname which did not run counter to "the Policy" or render it subject to "the Policy." How does just "North Dakota" violate "the Policy"? How does "North Dakota" render UND subject to "the Policy"? Why did the NCAA not snark at the legislature's "cooling off" mandate? If one thinks it's because the NCAA was sensitive to what it did, whom it offended (particularly the supermajority of NA's who wanted the nickname retained), or how it imposed subsequent costs upon various parties as a result of its own arrogance and its employment of what amounted to nothing more than economic terrorism for the sake of "correcting" a self-appointed "moral wrong", one is a bona fide Pollyanna. The surrender agreement does not prohibit the no nickname option, either inferentially or explicitly, because the no nickname option does not violate "the Policy" or render UND subject to "the Policy". For those who think that it may, the solution is simple: "Our school is called the 'University of North Dakota.' Our teams go by the name 'North Dakota.' Nothing to see here and have a nice day." The old nickname and logo are no longer used formally or informally by the school. The fact that people may still yell "Go Sioux" or "go Fighting Sioux" or wear "Fighting Sioux" apparel does not bootstrap the school into formally or informally continuing to use either the nickname or logo. To adopt a new nickname to try and get people from doing this is nothing more than a thinly veiled exercise in viewpoint/language management. North Dakotans certainly don't go for that. The former nickname and logo are not sentient beings that can reason, put together thoughts or sentences or consciously make "people feel" discriminated against. It's from the same playbook that leftist progressives use as to anything else that runs counter to their weltanschauung (guns, oil exploration and development, etc.). As far as fears about a "hostile and abusive environment" being created at UND, the use of "North Dakota" does nothing of the sort. No NA imagery is being employed by the school through its usage. If people yell "Go Sioux" at a game that is something that can't be micromanaged by the NCAA or the school. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STS Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The main reason: Contract Law. UND (the State) signed an agreement with the wording "If UND does not adopt a new nickname and logo ... ". (Settlement Agreement, section 2.d, page 5) North Dakotans don't "weasel word" and do follow through on agreements, especially contracts. I don't want a judge to rule one day that the NCAA is free and clear to stick us back on the list as subject to the Policy. There's one way to ensure that doesn't happen. If they wanted UND back on the list they could of done it years ago, the nickname moratorium was added by the state. The NCAA specified a date of Aug 15 2011 and only requires that UND not use a nickname or logo that violates its policy on native american imagery. Stop posting partial quotes in a self-serving attempt to advance your adgenda. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxphan27 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I threw out a question on this thread....How many NCAA schools currently have no nickname? It your answer is 1, than you are correct. Now why do schools need nicknames for their athletic teams? If it is not important, why don't you see schools dropping their nuckname and just go as "Michigan" or "Notre Dame."? Sure those schools have name recognition and branding on just the name of the school itself, but the chose to pick a nickname and still have it today? Now why is that? Answer that question and you will realize why a nickname is important to a University/College. Well heck, if all the kids are doing it, why not us? I'm sold- let's go with either Fighting Lemmings or Sheep. Your example is not relevant because they have not all gone through the process we have, so it's hard to debate. My guess is if every school was forced to drop their current nickname, some of them would prefer to tell the ncaa to go eff themselves, and proceed forward without one, putting the emphasis on their school name going forward. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teeder11 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Well heck, if all the kids are doing it, why not us? I'm sold- let's go with either Fighting Lemmings or Sheep. Your example is not relevant because they have not all gone through the process we have, so it's hard to debate. My guess is if every school was forced to drop their current nickname, some of them would prefer to tell the ncaa to go eff themselves, and proceed forward without one, putting the emphasis on their school name going forward. Since we are guessing: I'd highly doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND-1 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Well heck, if all the kids are doing it, why not us? I'm sold- let's go with either Fighting Lemmings or Sheep. Your example is not relevant because they have not all gone through the process we have, so it's hard to debate. My guess is if every school was forced to drop their current nickname, some of them would prefer to tell the ncaa to go eff themselves, and proceed forward without one, putting the emphasis on their school name going forward. My guess is you are wrong since nobody else has gone without one after being forced to change. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STS Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 My guess is you are wrong since nobody else has gone without one after being forced to change. Well...Stanford dropped their native nickname after a student senate vote and adopted a color to replace it. But, then again, who's heard of Stanford. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homer Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 My point is the name University of North Dakota is what defines the university...not some nickname. Post #1246, to answer your question about the millions. I'm not part of the crowd thinking this is some way to keep using fighting Sioux. I would be proud as hell if we forged our way without a new, worthless, nickname. We are North Dakota - no further explanation necessary. I think you're kidding yourself if you think choosing a new nickname is going to make any difference in the minds and actions of those that chant Sioux at the end of the anthem, or do Sioux cheers, or wear Sioux clothing. Than why is it so hard to let go of the Fighting Sioux name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I think you're kidding yourself if you think choosing a new nickname is going to make any difference in the minds and actions of those that chant Sioux at the end of the anthem, or do Sioux cheers, or wear Sioux clothing. Some people will never change, I won't argue that, but they are the minority. The majority will. I continue to wear Sioux gear (and will in the future) but a lot of that has to do with there not being a replacement yet. I've purchased some interlocking ND stuff, but very little, mainly because I don't care for it. Once there is a true replacement, you will start to see a shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STS Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Than why is it so hard to let go of the Fighting Sioux name? History? Tradition? Love? Because two guys who just 3 days ago committed to play hockey here put #gosioux in their announcement tweets, and that's pretty cool. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND-1 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Well...Stanford dropped their native nickname after a student senate vote and adopted a color to replace it. But, then again, who's heard of Stanford. So they adopted a new nickname, correct? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homer Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 History? Tradition? Love? Because two guys who just 3 days ago committed to play hockey here put #gosioux in their announcement tweets, and that's pretty cool. That can't be. Nicknames don't create any tradition or branding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STS Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 So they adopted a new nickname, correct? Ok...then so did UND, "North Dakota". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Than why is it so hard to let go of the Fighting Sioux name? It's gone already. Why is it so hard for Kelley, et al to put substance behind their verbiage and actually take steps that evince respect for the tradition and history associated with it? Why is it so hard for Kelley, et al to actually be frank and indicate that they want a new nickname fast so that people are encouraged to stop yelling "Go Sioux" at games (because, what's wrong with you, we're not the "Fighting Sioux" anymore) sooner rather than later. I'd say that it's Kelley, et al who have a hard time letting go of it because they are obviously trying so hard to get people to stop saying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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