Joe Finley

[redwing77]

So nobody's got anything to say. Of course the people who want Finley to leave are idiots. That doesn't mean anyone who discusses a player's mistakes intelligently should be lumped in with the idiots. Anyone who blindly defends a player and claim them to be flawless are just as moronic as the people who blindly hate them. Against BC, no one played well. People who blame that solely on Finley are idiots. People that think Finley is the best player on the ice merely because he was a first round draft pick are idiots as well.

As I'm one of the first to jump in defending players, I'd like to say I agree with this. There are plenty of posters who say something critical of players that's tasteful and constructive and that's not the problem. However, whenever someone posts something like this about Joe, there are 4-10 replies to the post saying everything from "I like Joe but he should be benched" to "Joe sucks. I hope Washington signs him before the third period." I admit to not being the best at supporting the respectful criticisms, but I do not consider these people to be idiots. Only the responders who call for a player to leave.

I want Finley to stay, but I want us as a team to quit trying to be Mini-Wisconsin and open up the game a little bit. I'm old enough to remember when merely good enough wasn't acceptable at UND. You had to be exceptional to play for the Fighting Sioux. We didn't roll out 2 scoring lines and 2 forward lines who were just out there to give the other guys a break. Finley will be better next year and we'll support him no matter what. Supporting a player doesn't mean you can't call an apple an apple when they make a bad play or have a bad game.

We actually did try against BC. However, teams that open it up tend to take more risks, especially around the perimeter and blue line. This opens up the possibility of odd man rushes the other way, something BC capitalized on several times.

Are any of you parents? Do you consider yourself or other parents to be poor parents if you get after or reprimand your children when they make mistakes, or do you just blindly ignore any issues or problems and hope they will magically go away? Then why do some of you treat other fans that way? Just because someone says something critical of a player when he makes a mistake doesn't mean they're terrible fans. People on both sides of the Finley argument need to grow up. If you think you're so much better than everyone else that you take pleasure in ripping your fellow fans, I'm sure the Gophers would gladly accept you on their bandwagon.

No, I'm not a parent. If I were a parent of a player, to be bluntly honest, I would NEVER read game threads on this board (not to mention any thread with my son's name in it). And I agree it gets childish at times, but are your reprimands to your sons akin to "Why don't you go play in traffic?" Or "Why do I call you son?" or "Why don't you sign on with the Peace Corps or some other agency that takes you far away so I don't have to deal with you again?" Is that really a legit reprimand? I don't like constant flaming of players, but I don't wish those posters would get run over by a passing train. I just think that the maturation process is more than just knowing when to keep your mouth shut or knowing what kind of criticism is or is not abusive in nature.

[Siouxtimestwo]

No, I'm not a parent. If I were a parent of a player, to be bluntly honest, I would NEVER read game threads on this board (not to mention any thread with my son's name in it). And I agree it gets childish at times, but are your reprimands to your sons akin to "Why don't you go play in traffic?" Or "Why do I call you son?" or "Why don't you sign on with the Peace Corps or some other agency that takes you far away so I don't have to deal with you again?" Is that really a legit reprimand? I don't like constant flaming of players, but I don't wish those posters would get run over by a passing train. I just think that the maturation process is more than just knowing when to keep your mouth shut or knowing what kind of criticism is or is not abusive in nature.

Nor would I wish any harm to any posters here. I brought up parenting because there's a difference between telling your child to go play in traffic when he's smearing ice cream all over the walls and sitting him down and explaining to him why that's wrong and why he shouldn't do it anymore. If someone is saying constantly rips UND players and coaches for no reason, then the poster is simply flaming a guy for no reason. If a poster is giving you a reason why he or she thinks player X didn't play well in the last game, that's not flaming, it's constructive criticism.

We're all Sioux fans for crying out loud! You'd think this board is a battlefield sometime. I already said the people who wish harm or want the players to leave school are idiots. What I hate is when a poster (and it doesn't even have to be myself) offers constructive criticism about a game or an individual player and is told they are terrible fans and get flamed by people who supposedly make up the same fan base. We're supposed to be in this together. If someone offers a different opinion and intelligently states why he or she disagrees with the criticism, then that's great. It not only makes for great discussion, it also educates fellow fans who might not know as much about hockey. I just can't stand it when everyone gets lumped together. Finley is all of a sudden off limits to talk about because you're automatically a terrible fan if you say anything negative about him. Anyone who doesn't think Hakstol is the greatest coach of all time is automatically ripped to shreds.

I can't understand why NDSU or Minnesota fans would join a Fighting Sioux message board, but most those guys treat people with more respect on these boards then fellow UND fans treat each other. It's ridiculous, it's getting out of hand, and it's not even hockey season right now. I can't imagine how it's going to be once the puck drops. For years UND and it's alumni were looked at as arrogant pricks by others. I haven't heard comments like that in years. After hanging out here for the past year, I guess either it's back or it never went away and I was just blind to it. If this is how most of UND alumni and students act towards their fellow fans and friends, I can see why someone from the U of M or NDSU would hate our guts and think we're jerks. Is it like this in the stands at games now? I know it wasn't when I was in school, but I guess times have changed.

[tnt]

Nor would I wish any harm to any posters here. I brought up parenting because there's a difference between telling your child to go play in traffic when he's smearing ice cream all over the walls and sitting him down and explaining to him why that's wrong and why he shouldn't do it anymore. If someone is saying constantly rips UND players and coaches for no reason, then the poster is simply flaming a guy for no reason. If a poster is giving you a reason why he or she thinks player X didn't play well in the last game, that's not flaming, it's constructive criticism.

We're all Sioux fans for crying out loud! You'd think this board is a battlefield sometime. I already said the people who wish harm or want the players to leave school are idiots. What I hate is when a poster (and it doesn't even have to be myself) offers constructive criticism about a game or an individual player and is told they are terrible fans and get flamed by people who supposedly make up the same fan base. We're supposed to be in this together. If someone offers a different opinion and intelligently states why he or she disagrees with the criticism, then that's great. It not only makes for great discussion, it also educates fellow fans who might not know as much about hockey. I just can't stand it when everyone gets lumped together. Finley is all of a sudden off limits to talk about because you're automatically a terrible fan if you say anything negative about him. Anyone who doesn't think Hakstol is the greatest coach of all time is automatically ripped to shreds.

I can't understand why NDSU or Minnesota fans would join a Fighting Sioux message board, but most those guys treat people with more respect on these boards then fellow UND fans treat each other. It's ridiculous, it's getting out of hand, and it's not even hockey season right now. I can't imagine how it's going to be once the puck drops. For years UND and it's alumni were looked at as arrogant pricks by others. I haven't heard comments like that in years. After hanging out here for the past year, I guess either it's back or it never went away and I was just blind to it. If this is how most of UND alumni and students act towards their fellow fans and friends, I can see why someone from the U of M or NDSU would hate our guts and think we're jerks. Is it like this in the stands at games now? I know it wasn't when I was in school, but I guess times have changed.

I think you either have selective memory or were oblivious to the jerks. There always have been jerks, and there always will be with every fan base. There were selective fans that maybe people looked at as arrogant pricks, but I don't know that was the case near to the extent as it is with another fan base.

[Siouxtimestwo]

I think you either have selective memory or were oblivious to the jerks. There always have been jerks, and there always will be with every fan base. There were selective fans that maybe people looked at as arrogant pricks, but I don't know that was the case near to the extent as it is with another fan base.

I'm not suffering from selective memory, nor was I oblivious to the jerks. As you say, there's always jerks in any fan base, but they're usually jerks to rival fans, which has been going on for years. That's what created the rivalries of today. If this is how today's generation of jerks treat their comrades, I'd hate to see how today's Sioux fans treat rival fans. Also, this is the only message board I belong to, so maybe that's it. Back then, there weren't message boards, so I'm just going by how fellow Sioux fans treated each other in the crowd at sporting events compared to how people treat each other on this message board. While I'm sure most of the people that like to disrespect their fellow fans on here are pimply-faced teenagers emboldened by the cloak of anonymity that the internet provides, it's still disheartening.

[Irish]

I know I'm attempting to speak for a number of people, which is never a good idea, so I'll just give you my thoughts on Joe and you guys let me know if you agree. I don't dislike Finley personally, although you should hear my wife, a die-hard UND fan, curse him. Joe is a physical presence on the ice, one whom I would agree has gotten better each year he's played here. It was a tough adjustment learning to play at the college level, especially with his size.

Without getting too philosophical, Finley in a way represents the new definition of Sioux hockey and I think some fans don't like the new way we play. UND has had big, physical defensemen for a number of years, but they always seemed to have an attitude of aggression. For whatever reason, Joe is physical, but he just doesn't seem to have the nastiness that a Greene, for example, had. It always amuses me when other schools label us as dirty, because that is the polar opposite of what I've seen out of our teams under Hak. If anything, I think we play on our heels too much and are too soft. That doesn't mean I think Hakstol is a poor coach or should be replaced. He just has a different philosophy and wants to play a different style of play than Dean or Gino. That style has been highly successful, as evidenced by the Frozen Four trips, but it's not always pretty on the eyes, especially the slow starts.

The loss to BC this year wasn't heartbreaking so much because of the score or the disappointment of not winning it all, but rather it was the fact that we got beat by the old Fighting Sioux. Slap an 80s or 90s Sioux jersey on that BC team and you wouldn't have been able to tell the difference. Those teams didn't win the title every year, nor should the Sioux be expected to now, but the style of play made it seem like they were working harder. This past year's Sioux team gave it everything they had, they were simply outclassed. However, our current style of play and our slow starts will always leave some fans wondering if the boys really are giving it their all since they're not flying up and down the ice like teams past have. Joe's play is typical of this. Of course he's working hard and doing his best. His draft status and his limited offensive ability are always going to be leave him open to criticism, whether fair or unfair. He's out there for one reason, to be an enforcer on defense. Our team philosophy is to stress defense and play it safe, so when a team skates circles around us, it's hard to stomach when we realize that could have been us 5 years ago.

Genoway was brought up earlier, for good reason because he didn't play well. Genoway doesn't get criticized like Finley not only because he's a fan favorite, but also because he's a throwback player. When he gets burned and is out of position trying to make a play, it's no different than Finley getting skated past. No matter how it happens, it's a goal, but fans who yearn for the free-flowing offensive hockey of years past are willing to forgive a player for trying to create offense.

Agree 100% - We are a better team with Finley - no question. I too am somewhat frustrated with our style - we used to bring it both on offense and defense. Not any more. Every fan I have talked to wants the old style back. Even with some high end offensive talent, we didn't put on many rushes. We used to fly like BC. Now we have players (hell - whole lines) that are dead weight offensively. It's really tough to watch us play and get lit up and wish that we were the other team. The trouble is that we have been just successful enough to not force a change.

While we're on the subject of style - are we to expect our 5th slow start in a row? I for one get very frustrated watching us underacheive and mail it in for half the season. Time to hang another banner.

[Goon]

Agree 100% - We are a better team with Finley - no question. I too am somewhat frustrated with our style - we used to bring it both on offense and defense. Not any more. Every fan I have talked to wants the old style back. Even with some high end offensive talent, we didn't put on many rushes. We used to fly like BC. Now we have players (hell - whole lines) that are dead weight offensively. It's really tough to watch us play and get lit up and wish that we were the other team. The trouble is that we have been just successful enough to not force a change.

While we're on the subject of style - are we to expect our 5th slow start in a row? I for one get very frustrated watching us underacheive and mail it in for half the season. Time to hang another banner.

I want to see race horse hockey return also.

[soohockey15]

If all of you want the wide-open style of hockey you better pray the Wcha opens it up cause with the clutching and grabbing that goes on now, it won't happen.

[stickboy1956]

I wonder why Joe didn't go to the Caps Dev Camp?

http://capitals.nhl.com/team/app/?service=...rticleid=367602

[Goon]

I wonder why Joe didn't go to the Caps Dev Camp?

http://capitals.nhl.com/team/app/?service=...rticleid=367602

Good question, I wonder why?

[Sioux-per Villain]

I want to see race horse hockey return also.

I too want it high tempo with 45+ shots a game but unfortunately, I don't see a style change without a coaching change. Same thing with the Wild. It'll fun to watch a Blais style game in Fargo this fall. (When the Sioux are away of course)

[stickboy1956]

I too want it high tempo with 45+ shots a game but unfortunately, I don't see a style change without a coaching change. Same thing with the Wild. It'll fun to watch a Blais style game in Fargo this fall. (When the Sioux are away of course)

What tactics does Hakstol employ vs. Blais that holds scoring down?

A trap? Left wing lock?

I don't think so.

One observation - I think players in this era shoot less than they did years ago. I don't think this is coaching, though.

Did you notice that scoring is down league wide the past couple years?

I guess Steve Johnson is the answer.

[Goon]

The problem is that WCHA has become the Western Obstruction League copy right PCM.

Until the morons running the league crack down on obstruction scoring will continue to be down.

[sprig]

The problem is that WCHA has become the Western Obstruction League copy right PCM.

Until the morons running the league crack down on obstruction scoring will continue to be down.

The game in the WCHA will not change as long as holding and obstruction are legal. It favors the Wisco type game, and, a team that might play more wide open is at a disadvantage if the opponent can hold and obstruct. As a result, all teams in the WCHA are forced to play that game if they want a chance to win. The Blais coached teams would have had to do the same thing Hakstol teams are doing, the small fast team of the late 90's would have a tough time winning now the way the league teams play and the way the rules are enforced.

[stickboy1956]

The game in the WCHA will not change as long as holding and obstruction are legal. It favors the Wisco type game, and, a team that might play more wide open is at a disadvantage if the opponent can hold and obstruct. As a result, all teams in the WCHA are forced to play that game if they want a chance to win. The Blais coached teams would have had to do the same thing Hakstol teams are doing, the small fast team of the late 90's would have a tough time winning now the way the league teams play and the way the rules are enforced.

I submit the Sioux do not play the hold/obstuction game - they play a physical/speed game, which is how they have played since Gino took over in 78-79; Blais' teams played the same way, as does the current team.

See a pattern?

[mikejm]

The game in the WCHA will not change as long as holding and obstruction are legal. It favors the Wisco type game, and, a team that might play more wide open is at a disadvantage if the opponent can hold and obstruct. As a result, all teams in the WCHA are forced to play that game if they want a chance to win. The Blais coached teams would have had to do the same thing Hakstol teams are doing, the small fast team of the late 90's would have a tough time winning now the way the league teams play and the way the rules are enforced.

So build a "small fast" team and say to heck with the WCHA. We don't need no stinkin' McNaughton Cups! We don't need no stinkin' Broadmore Trophy.

Just play good enough in the conference to be one of the top 16 PairWise at the end of the year and then go on a scoring rampage in the NCAAs when a wide-open game is rewarded.

(And I'm only half joking...)

[BringDeanBack]

So build a "small fast" team and say to heck with the WCHA. We don't need no stinkin' McNaughton Cups! We don't need no stinkin' Broadmore Trophy.

Just play good enough in the conference to be one of the top 16 PairWise at the end of the year and then go on a scoring rampage in the NCAAs when a wide-open game is rewarded.

(And I'm only half joking...)

And hopefully not have to play BC again and the Sioux would have a chance.

[sioux rube]

The problem is that WCHA has become the Western Obstruction League copy right PCM.

Until the morons running the league crack down on obstruction scoring will continue to be down.

Nail on head.

[skateshattrick]

And hopefully not have to play BC again and the Sioux would have a chance.

Better yet--play the Gophers and guarantee a win.

[Blackheart]

Better yet--play the Gophers and guarantee a win.

It's only guaranteed if Long Island Frazee is in goal.

[soohockey15]

Better yet--play the Gophers and guarantee a win.

I hate when people take unneccessary shots at the Gophers. They won it more recently than UND, and they are a pretty good squad...get over it

[Goon]

I hate when people take unneccessary shots at the Gophers. They won it more recently than UND, and they are a pretty good squad...get over it

yeah and 7 > 5 and most of us hate the Goofs.

[burd]

I hate when people take unneccessary shots at the Gophers.

Yeah, I suppose, but it's a little like Tevye insisting to one of his daughters why she should marry a Jew: TRADITION!

[skateshattrick]

I hate when people take unneccessary shots at the Gophers. They won it more recently than UND, and they are a pretty good squad...get over it

Why was it "unnecessary"? BringbackDean is a Gophers fan who took a shot at the Sioux always losing to BC, and the Sioux's recent success against the Gophers is analogous. Get over it. You don't know how to spell, but I don't whine about it.

[jimdahl]

However, whenever someone posts something like this about Joe, there are 4-10 replies to the post saying everything from ... to "I hope Washington signs him before the third period."

...

I do not consider these people to be idiots. Only the responders who call for a player to leave.

I kinda hope Washington signs him before the third period.

[BringDeanBack]

Why was it "unnecessary"? BringbackDean is a Gophers fan who took a shot at the Sioux always losing to BC, and the Sioux's recent success against the Gophers is analogous. Get over it. You don't know how to spell, but I don't whine about it.

Wrong, not a Gopher fan, just not a Pollyanna Sioux fan either. I wouldn't mind losing every regular season game against Gophers if it meant beating BC in Frozen Four. Denny Green got the Vikes to the playoffs every year, but they too could never close the deal.