Coach Jones?

[bincitysioux]

How much have the standards for UND men's basketball changed in the last 30 years or so? In Dave Gunther's second-to-last year, he was 12-6 in the NCC, and finished in a tie for second place. He followed that up with an 8-10 NCC record, and was "strongly encouraged", I believe, to take another job within the athletic department. And that was with a hockey coach running the department.

 

It's weird to think that Gunther was not even 50 years old when he stepped down. 

 

I am pretty certain that Glas left under similar cicumstances, i.e. "strongly encouraged" to explore other opportunities.  It is remarkable how different the standards apparently are right now.  Just a decade ago, .500 seasons weren't good enough for UND.  Currently they are considered a success. 

[darell1976]

Rick Barnes gone....made Dance 16 of 17 years...at a FB school.

BJ not gone...misses the BSC tournament...only coach at UND to lose 20 games twice.

As Bin has stated numerous times (paraphrasing) the bar is so low for this program a snake could not win the Limbo.

And yet there are still Jones supporters out there.

[jdub27]

Final RPI ranking: 312

A ranking like that practically destroys the non-conference schedule next season. Top 100 or 50 schools won't want to schedule us. It will take at least two years to even work our way up the rankings, if we win.

Meanwhile, other Dakota schools have an RPI ranking in the 90's. Their non-conference schedule will be much stronger, which helps their RPI next year.

Becoming one of the dregs in DI really builds a deep hole and a Catch-22 situation.

 

RPI doesn't carry over from year to year and the schedule is typically made out a year or two in advance.  Due to adjustments to the RPI formula, losing home games to bad times is absolutely killer and beating good teams on the road offers a huge bump.  The former absolutely killed UND this year.  I do agree that if it were to continue, UND could have a little bit harder time picking up one time money OOC games but despite Jones other downfalls, he does seem to have good relationships with a fair amount of regional schools and continues to get UND pretty decent money games.  The opposite side (not just UND either) is getting some of those teams here.  I believe UNI is supposed to be the Betty next year, which would be an absolutely huge game.

 

The Big Sky as a whole needs to improve their non-conference schedule, though that's easier said then done due to there being a more limited number of OOC games to choose from out west.  Playing and losing against highly ranked teams does more for you then beating low ranked teams, especially for low mid-majors, which is one of the big flaws pointed out when using not only RPI but conference RPI to compare teams and conferences. 

[UND1983]

I am pretty certain that Glas left under similar cicumstances, i.e. "strongly encouraged" to explore other opportunities.  It is remarkable how different the standards apparently are right now.  Just a decade ago, .500 seasons weren't good enough for UND.  Currently they are considered a success. 

 

I also am confused by that.  One would think that a move to D1 would be for the better, meaning they intend for the program to play at a higher level, etc.  Now they certainly do not pay him like a D1 coach, nor should they.  But, why would expectations drop so drastically after making an upward transition?  

 

If I read the timeline right, Buning (the worst AD ever) nudged Rich out to make the move to Jones.  Jones did worse than Rich in D2 and has done worse than most every UND coach, ever.  But he keeps his job for nine seasons.  Hmmm.  

 

Did Buning hire any good coaches?

[Siouxperfan7]

I also am confused by that.  One would think that a move to D1 would be for the better, meaning they intend for the program to play at a higher level, etc.  Now they certainly do not pay him like a D1 coach, nor should they.  But, why would expectations drop so drastically after making an upward transition?  

 

If I read the timeline right, Buning (the worst AD ever) nudged Rich out to make the move to Jones.  Jones did worse than Rich in D2 and has done worse than most every UND coach, ever.  But he keeps his job for nine seasons.  Hmmm.  

 

Did Buning hire any good coaches?

 

His personel push up coach was pretty decent.  Other than than, no!

[SooToo]

How much have the standards for UND men's basketball changed in the last 30 years or so? In Dave Gunther's second-to-last year, he was 12-6 in the NCC, and finished in a tie for second place. He followed that up with an 8-10 NCC record, and was "strongly encouraged", I believe, to take another job within the athletic department. And that was with a hockey coach running the department.

 

It's weird to think that Gunther was not even 50 years old when he stepped down. 

 

What should the standard be in the D1 era? An important question, I think, that's obviously be the subject of some of the discussion here. Interesting to note that only one of the Dakota schools posted greater than a .500 record in its first three years out of transition -- and the AC did that largely on the strength of a transitional recruiting class -- pulled together by a guy now coaching in the Big Ten -- that had no other D1 offers. The records at the South Dakota schools were a few percentage points on either side of UND's 41-54 record. Yet to my knowledge there was no great outcry about diminishing expectations or calls for the dismissal of Dave Boots or Scott Nagy.

 

Is it reasonable to routinely expect 20-win seasons like the D2 days when, presumably, much of the OOC schedule may be on the road "playing up" against stronger teams/leagues? Was it fair, over the past three years, to expect UND to be consistently winning against teams from the AC or SDSU, who have had the benefit of an additional five years of D1 recruiting and development?

 

Again, no dog in this fight as I think the course at UND is pretty evident; either Jones' teams show significant improvement over the next year or two or he won't continue in his current position. But sometimes the comments here make me wonder if the clamoring for Jones' head isn't less about reasonable, rational post-transition expectations and more to do with how he "pouts" on the sidelines or how he fixes his hair.

[UNDBIZ]

What should the standard be in the D1 era? An important question, I think, that's obviously be the subject of some of the discussion here. Interesting to note that only one of the Dakota schools posted greater than a .500 record in its first three years out of transition -- and the AC did that largely on the strength of a transitional recruiting class -- pulled together by a guy now coaching in the Big Ten -- that had no other D1 offers. The records at the South Dakota schools were a few percentage points on either side of UND's 41-54 record. Yet to my knowledge there was no great outcry about diminishing expectations or calls for the dismissal of Dave Boots or Scott Nagy.

 

Is it reasonable to routinely expect 20-win seasons like the D2 days when, presumably, much of the OOC schedule may be on the road "playing up" against stronger teams/leagues? Was it fair, over the past three years, to expect UND to be consistently winning against teams from the AC or SDSU, who have had the benefit of an additional five years of D1 recruiting and development?

 

Again, no dog in this fight as I think the course at UND is pretty evident; either Jones' teams show significant improvement over the next year or two or he won't continue in his current position. But sometimes the comments here make me wonder if the clamoring for Jones' head isn't less about reasonable, rational post-transition expectations and more to do with how he "pouts" on the sidelines or how he fixes his hair.

 

I think one of the biggest reasons many don't like Jones is the style of basketball his teams play.  Gfhockey's description is still quite apt, these guys "just ball."

[UND92,96]

What should the standard be in the D1 era? An important question, I think, that's obviously be the subject of some of the discussion here. Interesting to note that only one of the Dakota schools posted greater than a .500 record in its first three years out of transition -- and the AC did that largely on the strength of a transitional recruiting class -- pulled together by a guy now coaching in the Big Ten -- that had no other D1 offers. The records at the South Dakota schools were a few percentage points on either side of UND's 41-54 record. Yet to my knowledge there was no great outcry about diminishing expectations or calls for the dismissal of Dave Boots or Scott Nagy.

 

Is it reasonable to routinely expect 20-win seasons like the D2 days when, presumably, much of the OOC schedule may be on the road "playing up" against stronger teams/leagues? Was it fair, over the past three years, to expect UND to be consistently winning against teams from the AC or SDSU, who have had the benefit of an additional five years of D1 recruiting and development?

 

Again, no dog in this fight as I think the course at UND is pretty evident; either Jones' teams show significant improvement over the next year or two or he won't continue in his current position. But sometimes the comments here make me wonder if the clamoring for Jones' head isn't less about reasonable, rational post-transition expectations and more to do with how he "pouts" on the sidelines or how he fixes his hair.

 

One standard I would expect is to never finish last, with the possible exception of a situation where it's a new coach's first year and he was left with a completely bare cupboard. Finishing anywhere close to last this far into a tenure would have gotten virtually any previous UND men's basketball coach fired.

 

And in terms of blaming the transition, IMO that really falls apart when you consider how Jones has done against UNO. Our head start hasn't meant much there.

[bincitysioux]

What should the standard be in the D1 era? An important question, I think, that's obviously be the subject of some of the discussion here. Interesting to note that only one of the Dakota schools posted greater than a .500 record in its first three years out of transition -- and the AC did that largely on the strength of a transitional recruiting class -- pulled together by a guy now coaching in the Big Ten -- that had no other D1 offers. The records at the South Dakota schools were a few percentage points on either side of UND's 41-54 record. Yet to my knowledge there was no great outcry about diminishing expectations or calls for the dismissal of Dave Boots or Scott Nagy.

 

 

 

Boots and Nagy both proved for many years that they could field successful teams at the DII level, which I feel provided them with much longer rope.

 

Is it reasonable to routinely expect 20-win seasons like the D2 days when, presumably, much of the OOC schedule may be on the road "playing up" against stronger teams/leagues?

 

 

As a member of an entrenched low-major Big Sky conference, I say yes.  There are also plenty of other low-major opponents on the non-conference schedule every year.

 

Was it fair, over the past three years, to expect UND to be consistently winning against teams from the AC or SDSU, who have had the benefit of an additional five years of D1 recruiting and development?

 

 

Absolutely.

 

But sometimes the comments here make me wonder if the clamoring for Jones' head isn't less about reasonable, rational post-transition expectations and more to do with how he "pouts" on the sidelines or how he fixes his hair.

 

 

IMO his actual record at North Dakota before the transition, during the transition, and after the transition is far more disturbing than how he conducts himself on the sideline.  There is no arguing that the past 9 years have been one of the least successful periods in the history of Sioux basketball.

[UND1983]

What should the standard be in the D1 era? An important question, I think, that's obviously be the subject of some of the discussion here. Interesting to note that only one of the Dakota schools posted greater than a .500 record in its first three years out of transition -- and the AC did that largely on the strength of a transitional recruiting class -- pulled together by a guy now coaching in the Big Ten -- that had no other D1 offers. The records at the South Dakota schools were a few percentage points on either side of UND's 41-54 record. Yet to my knowledge there was no great outcry about diminishing expectations or calls for the dismissal of Dave Boots or Scott Nagy.

 

Is it reasonable to routinely expect 20-win seasons like the D2 days when, presumably, much of the OOC schedule may be on the road "playing up" against stronger teams/leagues? Was it fair, over the past three years, to expect UND to be consistently winning against teams from the AC or SDSU, who have had the benefit of an additional five years of D1 recruiting and development?

 

Again, no dog in this fight as I think the course at UND is pretty evident; either Jones' teams show significant improvement over the next year or two or he won't continue in his current position. But sometimes the comments here make me wonder if the clamoring for Jones' head isn't less about reasonable, rational post-transition expectations and more to do with how he "pouts" on the sidelines or how he fixes his hair.

 

You're comparing Nagy's D2 record to Jones'?  Interesting choice.  Nagy had a pretty big leash after all he did during his D2 days.  Jones hasn't ever done anything of significance.  

[Irish]

I think one of the biggest reasons many don't like Jones is the style of basketball his teams play.  Gfhockey's description is still quite apt, these guys "just ball."

Absolutely this - If he had a very hard-working but slightly under-talented group who played team ball and improved every year I think the attitude of this board would be very different.  He had a very talented group not improve much and refuse to play any kind of organized style or rebound.  Now, with a less talented group doing the same thing the wheels are coming off.  I can hardly stand to watch his teams, especially in the last 3-4 minutes.  

[SooToo]

Boots and Nagy both proved for many years that they could field successful teams at the DII level, which I feel provided them with much longer rope.

 

Agreed. Their earlier success in D2 certainly insulated them against the struggles their teams faced in transition. Still, I don't recall any talk about the falling standards at USD or SDSU. Jones, on the other hand, coached for only two years in D2 before UND entered the transitional period. In one of those years, his teams played for the NCC championship. Most of his coaching tenure has revolved around the transition, with all the scheduling and recruiting baggage that comes with it. Comparing his record to that of Boots or Nagy is apples-to-oranges in so many respects.

 

Hey, no great basketball mind here and no, before Darrell chimes in, not "Mrs. Jones." Personally, I have mixed feelings about Jones. He seems to recruit well, but so far I'm not impressed with player development. His team lost a lot of close games this season playing a lot of freshmen in the front court, but some of the blowout losses over the past couple of years don't say much for team play and chemistry.

 

As a member of an entrenched low-major Big Sky conference, I say yes.  There are also plenty of other low-major opponents on the non-conference schedule every year.

 

And yet only the AC has posted a 20-win season within its first 3 years out of transition, and they followed that with a 11-18 season. One doesn't have to be a fan of FU to acknowledge its transition -- fashioned in no small part by a basketball coach now in the Big Ten and a football coach now in the NFL -- was exceptional.

 

Absolutely.

 

OK, you've got me on this one. UND should always beat the AC and SDSU, and I'll expect those results starting next season. 

 

 

[SooToo]

One standard I would expect is to never finish last, with the possible exception of a situation where it's a new coach's first year and he was left with a completely bare cupboard. Finishing anywhere close to last this far into a tenure would have gotten virtually any previous UND men's basketball coach fired.

 

And in terms of blaming the transition, IMO that really falls apart when you consider how Jones has done against UNO. Our head start hasn't meant much there.

 

Certainly not a black-and-white picture for Jones or his team, and I agree the losses to Omaha, including the two-point loss this year, were particularly aggravating. I'm not sure if its quality coaching, early entry into the Summit, the discontinuation of football or their location in a metro area, but UNO seems to be on the right track with basketball. IIRC, they just finished their 4th year of transition. They've had a losing record in the last three years but have posted wins against Marquette, Denver, Northern Illinois, Seattle, SDSU and USD, among others.

[UNDBIZ]

Certainly not a black-and-white picture for Jones or his team, and I agree the losses to Omaha, including the two-point loss this year, were particularly aggravating. I'm not sure if its quality coaching, early entry into the Summit, the discontinuation of football or their location in a metro area, but UNO seems to be on the right track with basketball. IIRC, they just finished their 4th year of transition. They've had a losing record in the last three years but have posted wins against Marquette, Denver, Northern Illinois, Seattle, SDSU and USD, among others.

 

"Among others" includes being undefeated against UND..... 

[Siouxperfan7]

So I realize that unfortunately the expectations for next year are not lofty.  But what do you think Jones has to do to keep his job?  He has 2 years left on his deal and would most likely be either let go or sign a long term contract.  What are some things that must happen for Jones to be the coach in 2016-2017?  .500 record?  Win against USD/SDSU/USD?  Win big time power conference opponent?  Making the Big Sky Tourney?

[SooToo]

"Among others" includes being undefeated against UND..... 

Yup, we're "Ofer" v UNO ... with an "N" of 2.

[niouxsiouxfan]

So I realize that unfortunately the expectations for next year are not lofty. But what do you think Jones has to do to keep his job? He has 2 years left on his deal and would most likely be either let go or sign a long term contract. What are some things that must happen for Jones to be the coach in 2016-2017? .500 record? Win against USD/SDSU/USD? Win big time power conference opponent? Making the Big Sky Tourney?

Ill say it again. I think there should be high expectations. BSC tournament semis or better. He seems to have recruited well, live or die with the young guys next year. No way he goes into lame duck year as coach. If we meet those expectations next year, great. If not...

[UND92,96]

I don't believe there's another example of a coach at one of the other early 2000's NCC schools currently in division I surviving a season like Jones just had post transition. Yes, a couple had comparably bad seasons during their transition, particularly when year four coincided with the first year in their current conferences, but not after it ended, let alone three years removed from the end of it. Carolyn DeHoff is probably the closest comparison, and of course she didn't survive her 6-20 season.

[SiouxVolley]

USD finished 12-18 last year, and they get Boots to retire at 57. Craig Smith is scooped up and they promptly have a winning season.

We have nearly the worst year is school history, lose promising players to transfer, have a shot at a promising young coach at Moorhead, but UND administrators just sit on their hands. UND needs to at least give their fans hope. But no.

[jdub27]

USD finished 12-18 last year, and they get Boots to retire at 57. Craig Smith is scooped up and they promptly have a winning season.

We have nearly the worst year is school history, lose promising players to transfer, have a shot at a promising young coach at Moorhead, but UND administrators just sit on their hands. UND needs to at least give their fans hope. But no.

 

USD didn't have to pay a buyout due to their state law only allowing 1 year contracts for state employees. 

 

And while USD had a winning record, they went from 12-18 to 17-16, the same kind of "winning" record that Jones has rightfully been ripped for. An improvement for a first year coach no doubt, but had it not been for 2 sub D-1 games, they would have had a losing record.

[UND-FB-FAN]

By my count, the player transfer/defection number is now four. This tells me it's no longer just us "idiots" in favor of a Jones' dismissal, but also some of the players.

[SiouxVolley]

USD didn't have to pay a buyout due to their state law only allowing 1 year contracts for state employees.

And while USD had a winning record, they went from 12-18 to 17-16, the same kind of "winning" record that Jones has rightfully been ripped for. An improvement for a first year coach no doubt, but had it not been for 2 sub D-1 games, they would have had a losing record.

Boots actually retired in September of 2013, just before the season started. Joey James coached that season. How many Sioux fans would complain if we had Craig Smith right now?

[niouxsiouxfan]

By my count, the player transfer/defection number is now four. This tells me it's no longer just us "idiots" in favor of a Jones' dismissal, but also the players.

If we lose any of the incoming guys or Hooker, Crandall, Shanks, or Cashman. Then we have major issues.  Some of these transfers have personal reasons for leaving. Can't quite make the leap to the players wanting Jones gone.  We "idiots" can keep complaining, but he ain't gone yet, so likely not going anywhere this year.

[jdub27]

Boots actually retired in September of 2013, just before the season starts. Joey James coached that season. How many Sioux fans would complain if we had Craig Smith right now?

 

You are correct on James coaching but there was still no buyout required to move Boots along, they just didn't renew his contract and he wasn't very happy about it.  James was also the likely next head coach until they found out that they could get Smith for what they got him for. 

 

I don't think anyone would complain if we had Smith but I haven't seen people step up to pay the buyout of the current head coach's contract that would have been necessary.  Same thing with getting Walthall. 

[dmksioux]

I could actually handle a season or two of .500 ball every now and then if the team at least worked hard and was fundamentally sound.  But as gfhockey and others have stated, our Men's bball team is tough to watch ("they just ball").   I don't want to lump all the players into the categories of not playing hard or fundamentally sound.  But as a team, overall, it is very frustrating to watch.  Just as the football team was very frustrating to watch under Mussman.  I think we have some kids who can play and want to be coached, unfortunately our staff is not doing a very good job of that. 

I also don't like that we are potentially losing four players.  Especially a few who can be good, solid DI players if coached up.  

I would like to be positive about the direction of the program, but there are just too many red flags with it right now which is too bad.  I really think there is potential with Hooker, Crandell, Seales, Shanks, and Cashmen...I just don't feel to confident about the staffs ability to coach them...