NCAA vs. CHL

[nodak hockey fanatic]

Since it's the hot topic, and this conversation is continued in the Seth Jones thread, let's continue the convo here...

Many have been debating the pros and cons of going the CHL route over the NCAA route, especially after losing Miller, Koules and Matteau in the last year to them (plus plenty others across college hockey), so the question is why...

Money - I think helps the CHL, but I'm not convinced it's the major issue at hand.

Education - I think may be a major factor here. Alot of us tout the free education these kids get, and to some kids they see the value in that. But I think alot of these 16 and 17 year old kids probably feel that playing hockey without having to do school work is a huge bonus. Right or wrong, I think this is definately part of the issue.

Games - I am not sure the "more games" argument works for me. These kids at this point in their development NEED the weight room and training time to build onto their frames to play the real mans game (pro hockey)

Competition - NCAA is better competition, hands down. But some may think putting up crazy numbers against weaker competition will help their draft status more than learning against better competition?

I'm sure there are many other points to be made, so keep them coming. Hopefully NCAA hockey can continue to get better and attract the top hockey players to the game.

[KTF]

Money...the CHL is a whole is a well financed organization receiving millions of dollars anually from the NHL as "development' money. Many teams are very profitable. This allows them to hire top notch coaching staffs and all the proper accessories...strength/conditioning coaches, power skating instructors, goalie coaches, educational advisors and academic tutors. Many teams play in large modern arenas with all the amenities usually associated with pro style franchises. This is all very alluring to 15, 16 and 17 year old players, making the CHL are very difficult route to pass up.

Education, the CHL has done a very effective job in convincing players that their educational needs will be taken care of. They even allow their players to play minor pro hockey (below the AHL) level for up to 18 months before voiding their scholarship packages and they eagerly point out the NCAA's draconian policies concerning amature rules and eligiblity.

Games, players love playing games, that is why they play hockey. Furthermore the CHL can point to the long NTDP season as proof that more games mean better players, if not then why would the National DEVELOPMENT team try and mimic and CHL style schedule? Why would leagues like the USHL play 60+ game regular seasons as they DEVELOP their players for teh NCAA?

Competition - CHL recruiters would point to the fact that there are about a dozen solid programs in the NCAA with the rest being below average. They would say what would playing games against no talent teams like Mankato State and Bowling Green actually do for your development (note, I'm just taking their line of thinking and I do not really agree with this but this is the arguement the CHL makes). Sure you may play against older competition, they might say, but against less talented players. They might also argue that while scoring may be easier in the CHL, this does not mean the competion is any less. Take a look at Cam Reid, who so far in 50 games at the CHL level, is scoring at a .82 ppg clip as a 20 year old, not all that much better than the .78 ppg clip as a 19 year old playing for St Cloud in the WCHA....they might even say that at St Cloud he was a 1st line forward while for Portland he is bouncing around between the 2nd and 3rd lines after not being able to secure a 1st line spot. If the competition was so much easier in the CHL, should not an over-age 20 year old be dominating 17 year old kids after spending a season playing against "men" in the NCAA?

The CHL also enjoys tremendous recruiting advantages over the NCAA. They can talk to players of any age at any time. There is very little enforcment, allowing the many rich franchises to funnel under the table money to the sought after player and his family. It is quite common for a CHL team to transfer a players scholarship money once they have signed a NHL contract to a sibling...how can the NCAA match that?

Now my own personal belief is that the NCAA offers the majority of players (though not all) the better route but the CHL is relentless in its pursuit of top level talent and I would argue that over the past 5 years has effectively shut the NCAA out of the Canadian market for elite level talent and is making huge in roads in the U.S. where traditionally the NCAA has had the advantage.

I do not know how the NCAA can respond or how they will be able to stem the tide when so many things are against it.

[watchmaker49]

Money...the CHL is a whole is a well financed organization receiving millions of dollars anually from the NHL as "development' money. Many teams are very profitable. This allows them to hire top notch coaching staffs and all the proper accessories...strength/conditioning coaches, power skating instructors, goalie coaches, educational advisors and academic tutors. Many teams play in large modern arenas with all the amenities usually associated with pro style franchises. This is all very alluring to 15, 16 and 17 year old players, making the CHL are very difficult route to pass up.

Education, the CHL has done a very effective job in convincing players that their educational needs will be taken care of. They even allow their players to play minor pro hockey (below the AHL) level for up to 18 months before voiding their scholarship packages and they eagerly point out the NCAA's draconian policies concerning amature rules and eligiblity.

Games, players love playing games, that is why they play hockey. Furthermore the CHL can point to the long NTDP season as proof that more games mean better players, if not then why would the National DEVELOPMENT team try and mimic and CHL style schedule? Why would leagues like the USHL play 60+ game regular seasons as they DEVELOP their players for teh NCAA?

Competition - CHL recruiters would point to the fact that there are about a dozen solid programs in the NCAA with the rest being below average. They would say what would playing games against no talent teams like Mankato State and Bowling Green actually do for your development (note, I'm just taking their line of thinking and I do not really agree with this but this is the arguement the CHL makes). Sure you may play against older competition, they might say, but against less talented players. They might also argue that while scoring may be easier in the CHL, this does not mean the competion is any less. Take a look at Cam Reid, who so far in 50 games at the CHL level, is scoring at a .82 ppg clip as a 20 year old, not all that much better than the .78 ppg clip as a 19 year old playing for St Cloud in the WCHA....they might even say that at St Cloud he was a 1st line forward while for Portland he is bouncing around between the 2nd and 3rd lines after not being able to secure a 1st line spot. If the competition was so much easier in the CHL, should not an over-age 20 year old be dominating 17 year old kids after spending a season playing against "men" in the NCAA?

The CHL also enjoys tremendous recruiting advantages over the NCAA. They can talk to players of any age at any time. There is very little enforcment, allowing the many rich franchises to funnel under the table money to the sought after player and his family. It is quite common for a CHL team to transfer a players scholarship money once they have signed a NHL contract to a sibling...how can the NCAA match that?

Now my own personal belief is that the NCAA offers the majority of players (though not all) the better route but the CHL is relentless in its pursuit of top level talent and I would argue that over the past 5 years has effectively shut the NCAA out of the Canadian market for elite level talent and is making huge in roads in the U.S. where traditionally the NCAA has had the advantage.

I do not know how the NCAA can respond or how they will be able to stem the tide when so many things are against it.

Maybe allow kids who signed with a CHL team to go to college with losing one year of eligibility. If they had signed as 15,16, or 17 year olds.

[KTF]

Maybe allow kids who signed with a CHL team to go to college with losing one year of eligibility. If they had signed as 15,16, or 17 year olds.

This is something that more and more coaches are favoring, but opposition still remains from some key players.

[petey23]

Maybe allow kids who signed with a CHL team to go to college with losing one year of eligibility. If they had signed as 15,16, or 17 year olds.

Did this used to be the case?

[watchmaker49]

Did this used to be the case?

I think you are right that there was something like this before. Something about how many games were played. I think someone played for UND that had signed and played like on or two games and lost a year.

[Blackheart]

I think you are right that there was something like this before. Something about how many games were played. I think someone played for UND that had signed and played like on or two games and lost a year.

Was that Lee Goren?

[GFG]

I think part of the reason we're seeing more American players go into the CHL is that our country is starting to develop more and more talent every year. Its been showing at the international level the past decade. Especially the last 3 or 4 years when we've been consistently beating Canada and winning world championships at the 15-20 year old age group. It's no doubt the CHL is taking notice to all the talent rising in the US and you can bet that they'll be recruiting a lot heavier than ever before. As the US keeps producing more and more hockey talent expect more to start going to Major Juniors

[watchmaker49]

Was that Lee Goren?

We have a winner! He played two games with the Saskatoon Blades according to dmb or whaterever it's called.

[petey23]

I think you are right that there was something like this before. Something about how many games were played. I think someone played for UND that had signed and played like on or two games and lost a year.

Did Hakstol? I know he only played 3 years at UND?

[90siouxfan]

I think Troy Murray played for the Medicine Hat Tigers or the Lethbridge.

[choyt3]

I think Troy Murray played for the Medicine Hat Tigers or the Lethbridge.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=3872

[The Sicatoka]

Competition - CHL recruiters would point to the fact that there are about a dozen solid programs in the NCAA with the rest being below average.

There are 58 NCAA teams.

By definition, wouldn't 29 be above average and 29 be below average?

[siouxnews]

i dont like the argument that kids should be able to play ncaa after playing major junior. major junior is professional. you dont go from being a professional to being an amateur. college hockey programs need to reconsider their approach to recruiting instead of reconsidering the rules of playing amateur hockey after beginning a pro career. the CHL is just plain beating some college hockey schools at the game of selling their route to the NHL. develop more NHL players and the kids will come to the ncaas. did UND work for toews and parise?? sure. but for every toews and parise that went to the ncaas- there are 3 crosbys taylor halls claude girouxs.. etc etc etc that went major junior.

[as15]

i dont like the argument that kids should be able to play ncaa after playing major junior. major junior is professional. you dont go from being a professional to being an amateur. college hockey programs need to reconsider their approach to recruiting instead of reconsidering the rules of playing amateur hockey after beginning a pro career. the CHL is just plain beating some college hockey schools at the game of selling their route to the NHL. develop more NHL players and the kids will come to the ncaas. did UND work for toews and parise?? sure. but for every toews and parise that went to the ncaas- there are 3 crosbys taylor halls claude girouxs.. etc etc etc that went major junior.

I don't get why people say all of the CHL is professional. Yes, some of the player's are under NHL contract and have been played to play, but the vast majority do not get paid.

[KTF]

I don't get why people say all of the CHL is professional. Yes, some of the player's are under NHL contract and have been played to play, but the vast majority do not get paid.

Players receive tiny stipends for living expenses....really no different from what many players receive in other Junior A leagues/ The NCAA views the CHL as a pro circuit because it allows players who have signed NHL contracts to play. You are right though, in that the vast majority have not signed contracts and are not being paid to play....Paul Kelly also argued that those who have not signed contracts should be allowed to play in the NCAA.

[I Ranger]

We have a winner! He played two games with the Saskatoon Blades according to dmb or whaterever it's called.

I believe Colby Genoway played a few games as well and that is why he sat out his first year here and only had 3 years of eligibility.

[watchmaker49]

Players receive tiny stipends for living expenses....really no different from what many players receive in other Junior A leagues/ The NCAA views the CHL as a pro circuit because it allows players who have signed NHL contracts to play. You are right though, in that the vast majority have not signed contracts and are not being paid to play....Paul Kelly also argued that those who have not signed contracts should be allowed to play in the NCAA.

UND gives their players more money. Tution, housing money (if they do not live in the dorms), and books whcih is a lot more money than probably 98% of the kids in the CHL get.

[BigGreyAnt41]

I believe Colby Genoway played a few games as well and that is why he sat out his first year here and only had 3 years of eligibility.

I think you're right. I knew that happened to somebody while I was in school and Lee Goren was before my time so I knew it happened to somebody else, just couldn't remember who.

[Frozen4sioux]

What are your thoughts on the corolation of:

Large numbers of kids bolting for chl In relation to the coming shakeup of college hockey conferences?

Could the uncertainty be playing with their minds, or being planted in their minds by chl.

It would behoove college hockey inc. to talk with Hesse kids and survey them on the process and decision making factors and compile them into a report to the coaches.

[Snake]

There are 58 NCAA teams.

By definition, wouldn't 29 be above average and 29 be below average?

Not quite...and it would depend on what you're measuring.

By definition, MEDIAN is the point where half of your distribution will be above and half below. Only in a pure normal distribution will half the population be above and below the MEAN or AVERAGE.

Now, If you're measuring wins and losses, in the long run half the teams will likely be above .500 and half below.

But, if you're talking national championships, the average number of titles per team is 65/58 = 1.12

Only 14 teams have actually won more than 1.12 titles, therefore 14 teams are "above average" and the rest are below.

[GFG]

I don't understand. Nobody on here thinks what I said earlier is even plausible or what?

[as15]

I don't understand. Nobody on here thinks it's even plausible that what I said earlier in this thread is a probability?

I think it is a big part of it.

[watchmaker49]

I don't understand. Nobody on here thinks what I said earlier is even plausible or what?

Isn't the objective to recruit the best you can? Since the US is producing quality players can't blame the Canadians that they finally admit that there are many Americans that are better players than Canadians can we?

[GFG]

Isn't the objective to recruit the bast you can? Since the US is producing quality players can't blame the Canadians that they finally admit that there are many Americans that are better players than Canadians can we?

That's what I was saying. It seems the US is producing a higher number of quality players than ever before and Canadian MJ teams are taking notice to it and recruiting more and more US born players. There's really nothing you can do about it, but I really do believe we're "seeing more" go that route just because we're producing more hockey players now than we used to.