How will you vote June 12th?

[darell1976]

That makes you PC right

Just because you want the name retired doesn't mean you are for PC. I am anti-PC. But I am also a realist, and I see what problems await UND if they keep the name. The NCAA is the boss in this and its not like UND is changing the name to be PC, they are doing this because the NCAA said do it or get punished. Like mom and dad telling you as a kid clean your room or you will be in trouble. Did you do it (comply) or stand up for your self and object knowing what punishment was coming.

[82SiouxGuy]

That makes you PC right

This has nothing to do with Political Correctness. But thanks for trying to throw more garbage at the wall to muck up the discussion. This is a business decision, doing what is best for the University of North Dakota. It is a pragmatic decision, not a PC decision. Only a small mind that can't see the big picture would look at this as a PC decision.

[Fetch]

sorry you can't see the Big Picture

[jodcon]

sorry you can't see the Big Picture

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I almost fell out of my effin chair on that one!

[fightingsioux4life]

That makes you PC right

[Fetch]

[82SiouxGuy]

sorry you can't see the Big Picture

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttttttttttttttttttt.

[scpa0305]

You need to get your facts straight and so does your friend. Tribal governments are run much like governments in the rest of the country. The governing body, in this case the Tribal Council, makes the decisions for the entire tribe. Some tribes allow a referendum or initiative, and some don't. Across the country approximately half of the states allow some form of initiative and/or referendum and half don't. The United States Federal government does not allow initiatives or referendums. When have you ever voted on an issue that was being decided by the United States Congress? Never, the correct answer is never.

Standing Rock does not have referendum or initiatives in their Tribal Constitution. Matters at Standing Rock are decided by the Tribal Council. The Tribal Council has officially been on the record since 1992 stating that they are opposed to UND using the Fighting Sioux nickname. As Ira said, they have had many elections during that time and could have elected people during that time to change the policy. As a matter of fact, they had an election after the settlement was signed, and before the deadline. They decided after that election to continue the policy being opposed to the UND nickname. A group got a petition together to get approval for the nickname and had it signed by 1004 tribe members. The opposition put together a separate petition asking the Tribal Council to keep the policy opposing the nickname. They got 1012 signatures. Both groups tried to turn in their petitions, but the Tribal Council agreed to table the matter and not address either petition.

The settlement agreement set up how the NCAA would accept approval from the 2 tribes. At Spirit Lake they recognized that the Tribal Council had given approval in 2000. All they requested was written confirmation that this approval was still in existence. As a matter of fact, Spirit Lake could have given that written approval in 2005 or 2006, during the appeal process, and this whole issue would have been decided. We wouldn't be arguing about the issue and UND would not be on sanctions. UND would be in the same status as Florida State. Spirit Lake refused to provide that letter. All they had to do was write a letter saying "Yes, the approval is still effective." They wouldn't do it. They wouldn't address the issue at all until some of the tribe members forced the initative (which Spirit Lake recognizes in their Tribal Constitution). Even after the vote the Tribal Council was reluctant to provide the written confirmation until forced by the tribe members.

The settlement states that Standing Rock can decide approval in any way acceptable in their Tribal Constitution, and then relay the approval in written form to the NCAA. The Tribal Council is the only way to give approval for something like this at Standing Rock. As I said earlier, they have repeatedly stated that they do not approve of the use. There is no other way to get tribal approval, and nothing else that could be done to get that approval. Standing Rock Tribal Council members refuse to discuss the issue with tribe members, UND or state officials or the NCAA. They have made their decision.

Furthermore, Standing Rock is not the only tribe with a policy opposing the Fighting Sioux nickname. Every Sioux tribe other than Spirit Lake has opposed the nickname as has the Great Plains Tribal Chairman's Association which is made up of the Tribal Chairs of approximately 15 or 16 tribes in the region. Again, Spirit Lake is the only tribe in the region that has given support for the nickname. And this issue has been active with the tribes since the 1960s or earlier. The effort to save the nickname now is not the first time that tribes have addressed the issue. Just because you or your friend have not been aware of this doesn't mean that it hasn't been happening.

Nice...I guess I stand corrected. I still 100% do not want to get rid of the nickname because some liberal radicals say we are using it for the wrong reasons.

[scpa0305]

Just because you want the name retired doesn't mean you are for PC. I am anti-PC. But I am also a realist, and I see what problems await UND if they keep the name. The NCAA is the boss in this and its not like UND is changing the name to be PC, they are doing this because the NCAA said do it or get punished. Like mom and dad telling you as a kid clean your room or you will be in trouble. Did you do it (comply) or stand up for your self and object knowing what punishment was coming.

If we have to get rid of the name so do all others (FSU, IU, etc). I don't want to read anything about their tribes support them because we have some too.

[UNDBIZ]

Nice...I guess I stand corrected. I still 100% do not want to get rid of the nickname because some liberal radicals say we are using it for the wrong reasons.

If we have to get rid of the name so do all others (FSU, IU, etc). I don't want to read anything about their tribes support them because we have some too.

So what you're saying is you're incapable of making a decision based on logic??

[Teeder11]

If we have to get rid of the name so do all others (FSU, IU, etc). I don't want to read anything about their tribes support them because we have some too.

^^^^^^Where do these Johnny Come Latelys come from? Do we seriously have to go through the whole saga again to bring this one up to speed? I swear one falls off the board and another one fills the hole.

[82SiouxGuy]

^^^^^^Where do these Johnny Come Latelys come from? Do we seriously have to go through the whole saga again to bring this one up to speed? I swear one falls off the board and another one fills the hole.

I was thinking the same thing. This is the second one in the past week.

[ScottM]

^^^^^^Where do these Johnny Come Latelys come from? Do we seriously have to go through the whole saga again to bring this one up to speed? I swear one falls off the board and another one fills the hole.

They seem to be too stupid or too lazy to actually learn the history of this issue, which is pretty well documented from the earliest threads on this forum. Then again, they probably have the same limits in other aspects of their lives, and WalMart does need people to get the shopping carts ... so I guess it all works out.

[82SiouxGuy]

Nice...I guess I stand corrected. I still 100% do not want to get rid of the nickname because some liberal radicals say we are using it for the wrong reasons.

Few, if any, of us want to get rid of the nickname. Don't get hung up on how this happened or how we got to this point. What is important is the bottom line. The bottom line is that keeping the nickname keeps UND on sanctions. It does nothing to help UND, and it does nothing to hurt the NCAA. Some people seem to think they can make a point to the NCAA by keeping the nickname. It won't affect the NCAA in any way, while it will hurt UND. The NCAA wins if UND retires the nickname and the NCAA wins if UND is on sanctions. UND loses either way, but it loses much more by keeping the name and staying on sanctions. So don't vote by emotion, don't vote with your heart, vote with your head and vote to allow UND to retire the nickname so it can move forward rather than be stuck in the mess of sanctions.

[southpaw]

They seem to be too stupid or too lazy to actually learn the history of this issue, which is pretty well documented from the earliest threads on this forum. Then again, they probably have the same limits in other aspects of their lives, and WalMart does need people to get the shopping carts ... so I guess it all works out.

How dare you offend Walmart workers with that comparison

[82SiouxGuy]

If we have to get rid of the name so do all others (FSU, IU, etc). I don't want to read anything about their tribes support them because we have some too.

It doesn't really matter at this point whether anyone else gets to keep their name or not. UND did not get tribal approval within the deadlines. I say deadlines plural, because UND had 2 opportunities to meet a deadline. There was the original deadline for appeals in 2006. That was the deadline that FSU. Utah and Central Michigan, as well as a few others, met. As I pointed out earlier, UND just needed approval from 1 tribe at that point. All Spirit Lake needed to do was send a letter with 1 sentence on it to the NCAA. Spirit Lake refused to do that. Then UND took the NCAA to court. The result was a legal settlement. One of the penalties was needing to get approval from 2 tribes, and in exchange UND got an extension until November 30, 2010. UND couldn't meet that deadline because Standing Rock refused to even talk to them, much less work with them.

So, it doesn't matter what is happening with the other schools. It may not be fair, but I told you earlier that life isn't fair. What has happened with the other schools has no bearing on what is happening to UND. Do what is right for the University of North Dakota and vote YES on Measure 4.

[jodcon]

^^^^^^Where do these Johnny Come Latelys come from? Do we seriously have to go through the whole saga again to bring this one up to speed? I swear one falls off the board and another one fills the hole.

[geaux_sioux]

Sorry but I respectfully disagree. They should always be the Fighting Sioux. Yes, you seem to know a lot about this so I guessing you are correct in saying the agreement was signed by all parties, blah blah blah. However, we are not looking at this from 5,000 ft. By that I mean why the name is being taken away in the first place. Certain people find the name offensive except the tribe which our school is named after. That is silly to me. You are correct in saying we will lose potential games (WIS, MN) however, I believe that will only be in the short term, also, we will not be running into them much any longer due to the conference realignment. As for the other sports, you are correct, while I am a fan, I am not a die hard fan. Simply because the division they play in. I lived in GF my whole life and went there, however, besides hockey I only follow football and I much rather watch Div 1-A football.

You all may be correct that the name should go, but that is simply the easy way out because the NCAA has pinned us into a corner. I just think this isn't a fair way to go about things. MN is full of BS, don't they have the Warrod Warriors with an Indian head logo?

There have been many times throughout history where people didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing. They were used to it and it was the way it was. These days you look back and can be shocked that people had once thought that way. There is a reason we don't have slavery anymore, use lead based paint, beat hyperactive children in school, blatantly sexually harass women at work, play football without helmets, drive cars without seatbelts, use child labor, est. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that in 70-100 years people look back at our use of the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo and wonder how we thought it was ok. That being said, it hurts me knowing that my favorite nickname and logo in all of sports, that I was lucky enough to represent in competition, needs to go for the betterment of the entire institution. I wish we could make it work, but the name has been tainted beyond repair and now carries a weight with it that no school can carry.

[82SiouxGuy]

There have been many times throughout history where people didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing. They were used to it and it was the way it was. These days you look back and can be shocked that people had once thought that way. There is a reason we don't have slavery anymore, use lead based paint, beat hyperactive children in school, blatantly sexually harass women at work, play football without helmets, drive cars without seatbelts, use child labor, est. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that in 70-100 years people look back at our use of the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo and wonder how we thought it was ok. That being said, it hurts me knowing that my favorite nickname and logo in all of sports, that I was lucky enough to represent in competition, needs to go for the betterment of the entire institution. I wish we could make it work, but the name has been tainted beyond repair and now carries a weight with it that no school can carry.

Very nicely said.

[The Sicatoka]

Did you not read my comment, yes I know this has been debated too much and yes I know why FSU and IU can have their nicknames and we can't. I'm just saying they have native support and so do we. End of story. BTW, you seem like a nice guy. Go get a life. No wonder many people hate Sioux fans so much, it is ignorant no nothings like you.

Did you just admit you're simply a poseur and a troll?

[82SiouxGuy]

Did you just admit you're simply a poseur and a troll?

Yes he did. Which makes sense based on comments he has made in both this forum and the hockey forum.

[scpa0305]

Did you just admit you're simply a poseur and a troll?

No, just a Sioux fan who wants to keep the name. Others started the name calling.

[82SiouxGuy]

Did you not read my comment, yes I know this has been debated too much and yes I know why FSU and IU can have their nicknames and we can't. I'm just saying they have native support and so do we. End of story. BTW, you seem like a nice guy. Go get a life. No wonder many people hate Sioux fans so much, it is ignorant no nothings like you.

And I explained the differences. They got approval within the deadlines required. UND did not. There are penalties for not meeting deadlines. For UND the penalties are spelled out as sanctions. That is the end of the story.

[scpa0305]

Yes he did. Which makes sense based on comments he has made in both this forum and the hockey forum.

Sorry that I don't agree with everything you say. I played hockey my whole life and have always been a decent judge on players. Your's was pretty weak so I told you that.

[scpa0305]

And I explained the differences. They got approval within the deadlines required. UND did not. There are penalties for not meeting deadlines. For UND the penalties are spelled out as sanctions. That is the end of the story.

Yes, I get that. And if they lose the name because of that so be it. But if there is a way to keep the name....I am for that.