How will you vote June 12th?

[Fetch]

we can wear blank jerseys at their playoffs

[UNDBIZ]

Food for thought:

\http://www.grandfork.../group/Opinion/

Destruction of the university’s athletic program would be a high price to pay for the temporary pleasure of showing the NCAA who’s boss. We would end up being boss of an empty arena.

There is little doubt that the only victim of a “no” vote would be UND while the NCAA would go unscathed.

Good points.....

[Fetch]

but not true

[UNDBIZ]

but not true

You're just going to say they're "not true" without even making an attempt at debunking them??

[UND Fan]

This whole discussion is getting very old and tedious! I don't think that anything we can say will change the minds of Dave, Fetch, etc. Let's just drop the debate - this arguing isn't going to change anyone's vote.

Let's talk about UND sports, the Big Sky, etc.!

[The Sicatoka]

"We would end up being boss of an empty arena."

No Minnesota games. No Wisconsin games.

The hockey arena is already starting to sound empty.

[The Sicatoka]

Let's just drop the debate -

Better use of the time?

From now until the vote start convincing the "on the fence" voters to vote yes.

And be sure to get the yes folks, all of them, out to vote.

[scpa0305]

One mans vote is but a drop of water in an ocean. He can vote however he wants, it's pretty clear the name is being dropped so he might as well have fun poking people here since there isn't much to talk about in the off season

You "regulars" need to also be classy with your posts. You obviously do not approve of the nickname as you feel it will hurt the football teams chances of playing in the Big Sky. There are others of us who would like to keep the nickname for pride and historical purposes and to not simply give up because liberal radicals tell us we are somehow racist. We have our views (and are posting them) and you guys have yours (and are posting them). Remember we are all Sioux (or UND) fans so please relax and try to stay classy.

[Siouxperfan7]

You "regulars" need to also be classy with your posts. You obviously do not approve of the nickname as you feel it will hurt the football teams chances of playing in the Big Sky. There are others of us who would like to keep the nickname for pride and historical purposes and to not simply give up because liberal radicals tell us we are somehow racist. We have our views (and are posting them) and you guys have yours (and are posting them). Remember we are all Sioux (or UND) fans so please relax and try to stay classy.

I guess it is just frustrating trying to debate with uninformed people. That is what we are trying to do here. Inform the uniformed. For example, your comment says we think keeping the nickname will hurt the FOOTBALL teams chances of playing in the Big Sky. It is much bigger then that. It affects ALL sports playing in the Big Sky....not just football. We get kicked out of the Big Sky, no other conference is going to want to have us and deal with the drama. So then we are left scheduling not only all non conference games for football, but non conference games for basketball, volleyball, etc. Playing teams like Montana, Montana State, Cal Poly, etc. are much more attractive to play for not only fans, but future recruits. If we get stuck scheduling Sioux Falls, Montana Western, Jamestown, Mayville, etc., that is going to not only affect attendance at games, but recruits are not going to want to play for a school that plays down to lower division teams because they don't have a conference. Also no conference means no autobid for playoffs. Makes it harder to make the playoffs. Again, attendance, recruiting, and interest in all sports will suffer.

These scenerios aren't way out in left field. We can debate all we want about whether keeping the name will get us kicked out of the Big Sky. But there is that chance. If we keep the name and get kicked out of the Big Sky Conference, these things WILL happen. there is no debate that being a D1 independent in all sports would be harmfull to the program.

[jdub27]

Remember we are all Sioux (or UND) fans so please relax and try to stay classy.

Close but not quite. We are all Fighting Sioux fans. There are other here who have made it very clear that thay are no fan of the University of North Dakota. Anyone openly admitting that they don't think there will be or care if there will be harm from sanctions on the student-athletes, athletic department and the University as a whole are not fans of the University of North Dakota. And it has been made clear before which one can survive without the other and it isn't the nickname and logo that goes on the jersey, those have both been changed before. The University of North Dakota is the constant in the equation.

[UNDColorado]

You "regulars" need to also be classy with your posts. You obviously do not approve of the nickname as you feel it will hurt the football teams chances of playing in the Big Sky. There are others of us who would like to keep the nickname for pride and historical purposes and to not simply give up because liberal radicals tell us we are somehow racist. We have our views (and are posting them) and you guys have yours (and are posting them). Remember we are all Sioux (or UND) fans so please relax and try to stay classy.

Please take some time to read this: http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/237298/group/Opinion/

[scpa0305]

I guess it is just frustrating trying to debate with uninformed people. That is what we are trying to do here. Inform the uniformed. For example, your comment says we think keeping the nickname will hurt the FOOTBALL teams chances of playing in the Big Sky. It is much bigger then that. It affects ALL sports playing in the Big Sky....not just football. We get kicked out of the Big Sky, no other conference is going to want to have us and deal with the drama. So then we are left scheduling not only all non conference games for football, but non conference games for basketball, volleyball, etc. Playing teams like Montana, Montana State, Cal Poly, etc. are much more attractive to play for not only fans, but future recruits. If we get stuck scheduling Sioux Falls, Montana Western, Jamestown, Mayville, etc., that is going to not only affect attendance at games, but recruits are not going to want to play for a school that plays down to lower division teams because they don't have a conference. Also no conference means no autobid for playoffs. Makes it harder to make the playoffs. Again, attendance, recruiting, and interest in all sports will suffer.

These scenerios aren't way out in left field. We can debate all we want about whether keeping the name will get us kicked out of the Big Sky. But there is that chance. If we keep the name and get kicked out of the Big Sky Conference, these things WILL happen. there is no debate that being a D1 independent in all sports would be harmfull to the program.

Yeah, reading many of the posts on here actually gets me thinking a little. I really wish we could have the best of both worlds, but the NCAA will not let that happen. It's just unfortunate. Other teams can use native nicknames and we can't (please don't blast me for posting that), plain and simple. We were late on filing some paperwork I guess, now we're screwed. Still, at a high level, it doesn't make sense. At a low level (filing level, deadline level, etc) I guess it does. We'll have to see what happens. I don't think I could vote anyway so my vote won't count :o)

[scpa0305]

Please take some time to read this: http://www.grandfork.../group/Opinion/

Decent article. One thing though, say they vote to keep the nickname and the NCAA try to get involved, I thought the Universtiy could turn around and sue the NCAA on prejudice because we got the vote? All in all, this is simply stupid because the Natives are the one's getting this ballot going. Again, at a high level, what is really going on when the Native's are the people getting this going. I guess I really just do not see it.

Again my vote will not count so I will try to refrain from posting on this thread again.....just wanted some info.

Thanks!

[jdub27]

Yeah, reading many of the posts on here actually gets me thinking a little. I really wish we could have the best of both worlds, but the NCAA will not let that happen. It's just unfortunate. Other teams can use native nicknames and we can't (please don't blast me for posting that), plain and simple. We were late on filing some paperwork I guess, now we're screwed. Still, at a high level, it doesn't make sense. At a low level (filing level, deadline level, etc) I guess it does. We'll have to see what happens. I don't think I could vote anyway so my vote won't count :o)

sigh...

[UND Fan]

Better use of the time? From now until the vote start convincing the "on the fence" voters to vote yes. And be sure to get the yes folks, all of them, out to vote.

I agree that this vote is the most important decision that UND's athletic program has ever faced and, if we think that there are still potential voters reading this who have yet to make up their minds, let the debate continue..... It would appear to me that anyone still on the fence (and reading these posts) may choose to abstain from voting due to their simply getting tired of the continued dialogue, much of which is quite juvenile in nature!

That said, whatever it takes for the vote to go the right direction (retire the nickname), needs to take place!

[The Sicatoka]

Decent article. One thing though, say they vote to keep the nickname and the NCAA try to get involved, I thought the Universtiy could turn around and sue the NCAA on prejudice because we got the vote? All in all, this is simply stupid because the Natives are the one's getting this ballot going. Again, at a high level, what is really going on when the Native's are the people getting this going. I guess I really just do not see it.

As a part of the settlement agreement between the State of ND (UND) and the NCAA, the State gave up the right to sue the NCAA on this subject in the future.

Spirit Lake could have ended this in 2005 or 2006 with a simple two word letter, "See attached", and a copy of their 2000 statement (stating that they had no problem with UND's usage as long as something good came of it). Spirit Lake dropped the ball.

[82SiouxGuy]

This whole discussion is getting very old and tedious! I don't think that anything we can say will change the minds of Dave, Fetch, etc. Let's just drop the debate - this arguing isn't going to change anyone's vote.

Let's talk about UND sports, the Big Sky, etc.!

There are other forums to discuss those issues. As long as there are undecided or uninformed voters that might read these boards it is important to disprove the bluster of those that you mentioned along with the Committee.

[82SiouxGuy]

I guess it is just frustrating trying to debate with uninformed people. That is what we are trying to do here. Inform the uniformed. For example, your comment says we think keeping the nickname will hurt the FOOTBALL teams chances of playing in the Big Sky. It is much bigger then that. It affects ALL sports playing in the Big Sky....not just football. We get kicked out of the Big Sky, no other conference is going to want to have us and deal with the drama. So then we are left scheduling not only all non conference games for football, but non conference games for basketball, volleyball, etc. Playing teams like Montana, Montana State, Cal Poly, etc. are much more attractive to play for not only fans, but future recruits. If we get stuck scheduling Sioux Falls, Montana Western, Jamestown, Mayville, etc., that is going to not only affect attendance at games, but recruits are not going to want to play for a school that plays down to lower division teams because they don't have a conference. Also no conference means no autobid for playoffs. Makes it harder to make the playoffs. Again, attendance, recruiting, and interest in all sports will suffer.

These scenerios aren't way out in left field. We can debate all we want about whether keeping the name will get us kicked out of the Big Sky. But there is that chance. If we keep the name and get kicked out of the Big Sky Conference, these things WILL happen. there is no debate that being a D1 independent in all sports would be harmfull to the program.

If UND gets kicked out of the Big Sky the football team will be disbanded within 3-5 years. But even if UND remains in the Big Sky the department will be damaged and could very well be a bottom dweller in the league for years.

[82SiouxGuy]

Yeah, reading many of the posts on here actually gets me thinking a little. I really wish we could have the best of both worlds, but the NCAA will not let that happen. It's just unfortunate. Other teams can use native nicknames and we can't (please don't blast me for posting that), plain and simple. We were late on filing some paperwork I guess, now we're screwed. Still, at a high level, it doesn't make sense. At a low level (filing level, deadline level, etc) I guess it does. We'll have to see what happens. I don't think I could vote anyway so my vote won't count :o)

It wasn't just being late filing some paperwork. Try this example. You are a student and you have 1 paper to finish and hand in to get your grade. You fail to finish the paper by the deadline. Normally you would flunk the course. But you appeal to the teacher and they give you another chance. You get another 3 weeks to get the paper done, but you also have to do another paper by that same time. Consider it extra credit. If you don't get both papers in by the end of the extended period you fail the course and have no chance to appeal again.

That is basically what happened. UND had a period during 2005-2006 to get approval from 1 tribe, and did not get approval from any tribes. They sued and settled. The settlement they agreed to was an extra 3 years to get 2 tribes approval. They got approval from 1 tribe but couldn't get the extra credit approval. In this case the 'failure' is being subject to sanctions until the name is changed. We have a pretty good idea of what some of those effects will be. It really doesn't matter what has happened to anyone else because that isn't going to change what is happening to UND. So it wasn't just being late with some paperwork, it was totally missing the first deadline and not completing the requirements for the second deadline which was 4 1/2 years later.

[scpa0305]

It wasn't just being late filing some paperwork. Try this example. You are a student and you have 1 paper to finish and hand in to get your grade. You fail to finish the paper by the deadline. Normally you would flunk the course. But you appeal to the teacher and they give you another chance. You get another 3 weeks to get the paper done, but you also have to do another paper by that same time. Consider it extra credit. If you don't get both papers in by the end of the extended period you fail the course and have no chance to appeal again.

That is basically what happened. UND had a period during 2005-2006 to get approval from 1 tribe, and did not get approval from any tribes. They sued and settled. The settlement they agreed to was an extra 3 years to get 2 tribes approval. They got approval from 1 tribe but couldn't get the extra credit approval. In this case the 'failure' is being subject to sanctions until the name is changed. We have a pretty good idea of what some of those effects will be. It really doesn't matter what has happened to anyone else because that isn't going to change what is happening to UND. So it wasn't just being late with some paperwork, it was totally missing the first deadline and not completing the requirements for the second deadline which was 4 1/2 years later.

I get it. Not enough to ever get me to change my mind on the nickname or logo...but enough for me to back out of the conversation. Someone obviosuly dropped the ball (more than one time). I guess I am speaking on the overall reasoning of taking the name away...nothing to do with sanctions or anything. Simply based on what is right and what is wrong and who will be offended, etc. If we missed a deadline (or two or three deadlines) so be it, we may have to get rid of the nickname.

[UNDColorado]

An ACC blogger with UND roots has his say:

http://allsportsdiscussion.com/2012/05/29/retire-the-fighting-sioux-logo/

[PhillySioux]

FYI, early voting is available as of 5/29 at the Alerus Center.

[Gma loves hockey]

An ACC blogger with UND roots has his say:

http://allsportsdisc...ing-sioux-logo/

The article concludes with ties to NDSU. Is there ANY GUARANTEE that the NCAA would NOT sanction the whole state if it is a state law?

[UNDColorado]

The article concludes with ties to NDSU. Is there ANY GUARANTEE that the NCAA would NOT sanction the whole state if it is a state law?

The only guarantees I know of in this world are death and taxes.

[iramurphy]

Funny how the consideration seemed important enough to the Florida delegation. The "more important things" did not stop them. At its core, this matter is an assault by a monopolistic and low-core aggressive entity against a State owned and operated institution and against the people/government of that state. That would seem to be an important consideration for anyone truly worthy of holding elective office.

What do you think they could have accomplished that we didn't get? We got the same deal Florida State, Utah, Central Michigan got. Our Native American tribes had the chance to be heard but were silent in 2005. Who can claim they didn't have a chance to be heard?? Then UND officials and the SBoHE were able to get a temporary reprieve. How would our elected officials done differently? Despite the money spent and the efforts made to keep the name, the organization we belong to has decided (with over 400 member votes in favor to less than 10 against), that they wish to do away with Native American names and logos. How did other elected officials do more for their schools than N.Dak. officials? We all got the same thing initially, then after the work of the SBoHE and UND officials we got an extension. You are right, they didn't do anything that I am aware of, but what would have been different?

Those who continually bash UND officials and SBoHE officials forget they fought this battle and took a lot of crap from the activists and those opposed to the name for years. It doesn't take much for the pissants of the world to turn on you. Where were Frank and Soderstrom et al when the SBoHE and UND officials were trying to keep the name?? I agree we didnt' get much from our elected officials but I am not sure what more they would have gotten for us.