What happens if the first petition gains enough signatures?

[iramurphy]

So is the 1969 peace pipe ceremony, but you and the rest of the PC nazis choose to ignore it.

That is an insult to those who suffered under the Nazi's. Go visit one of the concentration camps and then tell me if you equate this to what the Nazi's did.

The mixed message we have received from Native Americans over the years is why the Peace Pipe ceremony hasn't carried the weight that some of us wish it had. Take that up with the Tribal Council at Standing Rock. It would have been very easy for them to give it credibility. The council claims the ceremony had no binding authority and was unofficial. Because it was done by tribal elders I thought it might stand but their elected officials say otherwise. None of those folks seem to care what you and I think though.

Dave, your goofy comments lead me to believe you have always been an observer and not a participant. You seem to believe that calling UND athletic teams by one name is so important that you would actually discontinue athletics at UND if we lose the name. The tradidtion of UND athletics just like the traditions or the Native American people themselves is not the name but the ceremonies, the history and the people and the trials and tribulations they have gone through for thousands of years in the case of our Native brethren and for over a hundred years in the case of the University of North Dakota, Whether they are called Sioux or Lakota or whatever name one chooses does not cancel out their traditions and history. Same goes for Fighting Sioux athletics which has had a proud tradition of excellence and success long before were were called the Fighting Sioux. No one team owns this name anymore than any other including women's hockey. They are already developing their own traditions. I don't think some folks understand the what is important with these traditions and history. That is why we agree and will continue to do so. I want to win and be successful and I want that for our athletes and athletic teams. You want to keep a name. Simple as that. I don't believe those of us who are here now have the right to jeopardize the proud tradition of UND athletics and what those who have come before us did to make all of this possible on behalf of a name.

By the way, I would almost be willing to pay to see if you and Fetch really exist. My fear would be Fetch would bring his pink sheep and the two of you would get in a fight over who would get to take her home.

[The Sicatoka]

The initiated measure is something that is a stand alone matter apart from the present referral. If 13,500 signatures are not obtained by the end of today, the other matter still goes if 26,000 signatures are obtained by August ? (forget the date at present).

Numbers, dates, details, all in the link.

http://www.nd.gov/so.../initiating.pdf

Starting at page 5, "Gathering Signatures", explains what should have happened up to now, what has to happen by midnight, and what happens after that as far as the Secretary of State's office is concerned.

[Goon]

I sure hope you're right, Goon, for ND's sake.

I don't know anyone that would vote for her. The people that I know wouldn't....

[Chewey]

That is an insult to those who suffered under the Nazi's. Go visit one of the concentration camps and then tell me if you equate this to what the Nazi's did.

The mixed message we have received from Native Americans over the years is why the Peace Pipe ceremony hasn't carried the weight that some of us wish it had. Take that up with the Tribal Council at Standing Rock. It would have been very easy for them to give it credibility. The council claims the ceremony had no binding authority and was unofficial. Because it was done by tribal elders I thought it might stand but their elected officials say otherwise. None of those folks seem to care what you and I think though.

Dave, your goofy comments lead me to believe you have always been an observer and not a participant. You seem to believe that calling UND athletic teams by one name is so important that you would actually discontinue athletics at UND if we lose the name. The tradidtion of UND athletics just like the traditions or the Native American people themselves is not the name but the ceremonies, the history and the people and the trials and tribulations they have gone through for thousands of years in the case of our Native brethren and for over a hundred years in the case of the University of North Dakota, Whether they are called Sioux or Lakota or whatever name one chooses does not cancel out their traditions and history. Same goes for Fighting Sioux athletics which has had a proud tradition of excellence and success long before were were called the Fighting Sioux. No one team owns this name anymore than any other including women's hockey. They are already developing their own traditions. I don't think some folks understand the what is important with these traditions and history. That is why we agree and will continue to do so. I want to win and be successful and I want that for our athletes and athletic teams. You want to keep a name. Simple as that. I don't believe those of us who are here now have the right to jeopardize the proud tradition of UND athletics and what those who have come before us did to make all of this possible on behalf of a name.

By the way, I would almost be willing to pay to see if you and Fetch really exist. My fear would be Fetch would bring his pink sheep and the two of you would get in a fight over who would get to take her home.

The Pipe ceremony is binding. The elders on the reservation are very upset with JTA and RHHIT as they have besmirched sacred tribal customs by persuading a majority (a very slim one at that) to not countenance it as valid. It's not up to the Tribal Council's determination. It was valid ab initio which makes the stupidity and outright racism of the NCAA in not recognizing it even more profound and stunning. Hell, no less than Leonard Peltier has written about the sanctity and binding nature of the Pipe Ceremony. If anyone wants a quick crash course as to its sanctity, all one needs to do is read a little blurb in any book by Robert Utley - THE authority on Custer - to see how he disrespected the Pipe ceremony and to see how Native Americans feel about bad things happening to those who disresepect it.

[Snake]

.The tradidtion of UND athletics just like the traditions or the Native American people themselves is not the name but the ceremonies, the history and the people and the trials and tribulations they have gone through for thousands of years in the case of our Native brethren and for over a hundred years in the case of the University of North Dakota, Whether they are called Sioux or Lakota or whatever name one chooses does not cancel out their traditions and history. Same goes for Fighting Sioux athletics which has had a proud tradition of excellence and success long before were were called the Fighting Sioux. No one team owns this name anymore than any other including women's hockey. They are already developing their own traditions. I don't think some folks understand the what is important with these traditions and history. That is why we agree and will continue to do so. I want to win and be successful and I want that for our athletes and athletic teams. You want to keep a name. Simple as that. I don't believe those of us who are here now have the right to jeopardize the proud tradition of UND athletics and what those who have come before us did to make all of this possible on behalf of a name.

Well stated.

Just this year I started teaching my two daughters how to skate (4 years and 5 years old). Saturday, we went to the women's game and stayed long enough to watch the Senior tribute. My oldest asked if I could pick her up so she could get a better view of the action on the ice. As she watched intently, I caught myself daydreaming about the possiblity of being there 16 years from now during her senior night.

Who knows? It may not be hockey...maybe it'll be soccer, or swimming, or perhaps golf. My wife golfed for UND, so they may have a shot at playing that instead despite my genetic contribution.

UND athletics has had a storied past and rich tradition. For my kids, I want University of North Dakota Athletics to have a future.

[ScottM]

The Pipe ceremony is binding.

Binding on whom? Certainly it may be binding on those who actually participated in the ceremony, but is it subject to comity, or some other recognition of foreign law? Moreover, if the ceremony did have any legally binding, rather than culturally binding, effect in 2005-2007, why was this "contract" not recognized at the time UND was prosecuting its litigation against the NC$$?

[Goon]

Because those in power desperately want to assist the NCAA in carrying out their hate crime. It is up to those of us who care enough to expose this illegal operation for what it is.

Not to rain your parade but do you know what a hate crime is? The NCAA is a an out of control tyrannical organization but I think it's a stretch to call it a hate crime.

[ScottM]

Not to rain your parade but do you know what a hate crime is? The NCAA is a an out of control tyrannical organization but I think it's a stretch to call it a hate crime.

I love how he uses "PC" terms like "hate crime" to decry PC ...

[Fetch]

better than being the sheep - difference is I would not lead you to do things that are wrong like the herders like you would - but I'm not completely sure about Dave

[Chewey]

Binding on whom? Certainly it may be binding on those who actually participated in the ceremony, but is it subject to comity, or some other recognition of foreign law? Moreover, if the ceremony did have any legally binding, rather than culturally binding, effect in 2005-2007, why was this "contract" not recognized at the time UND was prosecuting its litigation against the NC$$?

As white guys, we're applying an inapposite standard, at least as far as the SR Tribal Council is concerned. The Pipe ceremony is entirely binding on all subsequent Tribal Councils and, well, every member of the Tribe that existed then and will exist after that. As far as the NCAA is concerned, white man legal concepts of comity, contracts, etc. should not enter the picture if it is genuinely sensitive to native customs. To demand a signed contract after the Pipe ceremony has been conducted is actually an insult, as far as I understand it as a white guy. The NCAA bascially is saying "Well, this indian says this and this indian says that and so we'll default (probably purposefully and conveniently by design) to a (slim) majority of a Tribal Council." In terms of Native customs and the meaning and binding nature of the same, the elders are the final arbiters. Any members of any Tribal Council are bound by those customs and decisions of any Tribal Council do not supersede them. If the NCAA were truly concerned about the tribes, the NCAA would be investigating the Pipe ceremony and what it entails. People who do not abide by those customs fail to do so at their own peril. The 10 Commandments are not "binding" on me or our Government. However, if I decide to disregard those same safety principles I can expect a fair amount of choas and disharmony in my own life. I am Catholic and when I go to Confession, my sins are forgiven so says Catholic orthodoxy. By analogy, what the NCAA has elected to do is to deny the legitimacy of that piece of doctrine and demand a "contract" stating the same signed by the Pope. The Pope would not even have the authority to sign such a contract and would laugh at the NCAA because that Catholic truism existed for millenia before this Pope took office and will exist for millenia after he leaves. That priniciple has been hashed out and resolved through the Magisterium and neither the Pope nor the NCAA can deny its legitimacy or binding nature vis-a-vis Catholic orthodoxy. Just because some renegade Bishops or priests indicate that such is not the case does not make it so. We have this sort of thing right here with the SR and the Pipe ceremony.

[82SiouxGuy]

The Pipe ceremony is binding. The elders on the reservation are very upset with JTA and RHHIT as they have besmirched sacred tribal customs by persuading a majority (a very slim one at that) to not countenance it as valid. It's not up to the Tribal Council's determination. It was valid ab initio which makes the stupidity and outright racism of the NCAA in not recognizing it even more profound and stunning. Hell, no less than Leonard Peltier has written about the sanctity and binding nature of the Pipe Ceremony. If anyone wants a quick crash course as to its sanctity, all one needs to do is read a little blurb in any book by Robert Utley - THE authority on Custer - to see how he disrespected the Pipe ceremony and to see how Native Americans feel about bad things happening to those who disresepect it.

As much as I feel the NCAA is the major entity to blame in this situation, I have a hard time blaming them for not accepting the pipe ceremony. There are too many different stories about what exactly was involved, for a non-Native organization to know what to believe. Believing the wrong party could lead to legal issues for the NCAA. That portion of the issue I blame on the Standing Rock tribal council. If what is said about pipe ceremonies is true, then the tribal council should follow it and give their blessing. Actually, they should have been giving their blessing the last 20 years instead of fighting it the whole time. And if it is as big an issue as has been said, then the tribe should have done something about tribal council members disrespecting their elders.

[choyt3]

No doubt and I can't see Heidi Heitkamp winning the election. No matter how much money she gets from outside interests.

Yeah, because we all know Rick Berg will win with only "North Dakota" money.

[Cratter]

Did I read that any petition that contains a ficticious name invalids every signature on that petition? So if a person intentionally were to write a ficticious name on a petition...just sayin...

If true, it is pretty sad. I will now just go sign any petition I don't like under a false name.

[homer]

Final petitions are getting ready to be turned in and according to Eunice Davidson more than 16,000 signitures have been gathered. Looks like tomorrow we are back to the Fighting Sioux.

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/349986/group/homepage/

Question- Does anyone know if after all this is done, petitions are made public record? I'm guessing not but am curious.

[Teeder11]

Final petitions are getting ready to be turned in and according to Eunice Davidson more than 16,000 signitures have been gathered. Looks like tomorrow we are back to the Fighting Sioux.

http://www.inforum.c...group/homepage/

Question- Does anyone know if after all this is done, petitions are made public record? I'm guessing not but am curious.

Chuck Haga is thumbing through his Rolodex right now... "Hmmmm, now let's see 'F' for Fullerton, yes, Doug Fullerton, what's his number again?"

[choyt3]

Chuck Haga is thumbing through his Rolodex right now... "Hmmmm, now let's see 'F' for Fullerton, yes, Doug Fullerton, what's his number again?"

I'm sure he's busy clearing his schedule to be on McFooly's show tomorrow.

[ScottM]

As much as I feel the NCAA is the major entity to blame in this situation, I have a hard time blaming them for not accepting the pipe ceremony. There are too many different stories about what exactly was involved, for a non-Native organization to know what to believe. Believing the wrong party could lead to legal issues for the NCAA. That portion of the issue I blame on the Standing Rock tribal council. If what is said about pipe ceremonies is true, then the tribal council should follow it and give their blessing. Actually, they should have been giving their blessing the last 20 years instead of fighting it the whole time. And if it is as big an issue as has been said, then the tribe should have done something about tribal council members disrespecting their elders.

IIRC both SR and SL leadership at the time of the settlement were either hostile or neutral towards UND's fight to keep the Sioux moniker. I believe a previous SL administration told Kupchella it wasn't their fight at some point. Yeah, pipe ceremonies are nice relics, but have the legal force of a handshake.

I find it interesting that Chewy is actually advocating a legal relativism. Justice Scalia would not be pleased.

[Goon]

Yeah, because we all know Rick Berg will win with only "North Dakota" money.

But Rick will have a hell of a lot more money from in state than Heidi will.

[Goon]

Chuck Haga is thumbing through his Rolodex right now... "Hmmmm, now let's see 'F' for Fullerton, yes, Doug Fullerton, what's his number again?"

ha!

[Fetch]

Heidi will be a tough opponent

[108498]

What does people in office have o do with this? I'm lost

[Goon]

Heidi will be a tough opponent

I think she is going to get creamed.

[Cratter]

I think she is going to get creamed.

You thought that about Obama last election too.

[Goon]

You thought that about Obama last election too.

This time I think I can say that with certainty...

[Cratter]

This time I think I can say that with certainty...

Certainty? Do you not base things in reality? Willard Romney is going to be the nominee...no doubt...and is losing to Obama...if that is your "certainty"

Pr

esident Obama for the first time holds a clear edge over Republican presidential candidate

Mitt Romney

in a hypothetical general-election matchup, according to a new

Washington Post-ABC News poll

.

And that is of today....turn off Fox News. You will get true fair and balanced.

sorry this is my last post about this...its forbidden on these forums...and I will follow the rules.