Fire Muss

[Oxbow6]

I'm just going to answer my own proposed question. Everyone offers valid points about patience, limiting or eliminating negative comments, the transition and nickname issues, this year'a young team, etc. However, I feel the bottom line is the W-L record Mussman has. Having a losing record after 6 years is concerning, no matter how you spin it. I've had serious question marks since 2011, and since then they haven't been answered. Whether you preach patience or not, the athletic department can only survive so many 6,000-person attended games. That is the outlook of UND football if winning doesn't become the norm. The Northern Colorado be will around that 6,000 (maybe lower), so it comes down to whether or not Faison believes the threshold has been crossed after this season and if the athletic department can afford more potential 6000 attendance games next season. A coaching change could be the stimulus this program needs to get butts back in the seat and hopefully produce a winning culture. For the last 6 years, since Lennon left, and yes, we entered the transition, UND football has possessed a mediocre culture in terms of winning. And, the two Big Sky years have been more of a losing culture than anything else.

Can't argue with anything there.

[Shawn-O]

BS. If UND didnt have hockey and the most beautiful rink on the planet, where would the focus of the fans be? Culturally, the "hockey is king" mentality is so prevalent that we even have posters on this very board who belittle the FCS level of play. You might cheer/care equally for both football and hockey, but even your poster-name suggests you're in it for the hockey. Hockey is the focus of UND athletics, it's not really debatable.

It hasn't always been this way...maybe an unintended consequence of Ralph's so very generous gift, I'm not sure. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game...I think the AD will do what's necessary to get this ship righted. If Maine and New Hampshire can play playoff quality football, it can be done here.

[Irish]

BS. If UND didnt have hockey and the most beautiful rink on the planet, where would the focus of the fans be? Culturally, the "hockey is king" mentality is so prevalent that we even have posters on this very board who belittle the FCS level of play. You might cheer/care equally for both football and hockey, but even your poster-name suggests you're in it for the hockey. Hockey is the focus of UND athletics, it's not really debatable.

I agree that Hockey is bigger, but I don't see it detracting from football at all. No hockey recruits are taken from the football team. One thing is certain - without hockey to go to the football program would get a lot more pressure to perform and win. Think things are bad now on the board, take away hockey and make football all we have this season and see how our 2 win season would play.

[UND-FB-FAN]

It hasn't always been this way...maybe an unintended consequence of Ralph's so very generous gift, I'm not sure. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game...I think the AD will do what's necessary to get this ship righted. If Maine and New Hampshire can play playoff quality football, it can be done here.

Great point made with Maine and New Hampshire. They are FCS schools with a hockey focus and they regularly are competitive in football. However, with that said, they don't compete at a high level like the Montanas and Eastern Washington, which is what UND needs to find a way to do in order to win the Big Sky.

[The Sicatoka]

The only place where 0.500 is an acceptable record at UND is in its Meteorology grads (because that's considered good for those guys).

[BobIwabuchiFan]

BS. If UND didnt have hockey and the most beautiful rink on the planet, where would the focus of the fans be? Culturally, the "hockey is king" mentality is so prevalent that we even have posters on this very board who belittle the FCS level of play. You might cheer/care equally for both football and hockey, but even your poster-name suggests you're in it for the hockey. Hockey is the focus of UND athletics, it's not really debatable.

Again, BS...I was at UND when the Hockey teams just plain stunk (Ultimately, we fired the winningest hockey coach in Sioux history after that) and it was easy to get a ticket and the Football teams were starting to draw more and more people and the women's basketball was on a winning streak. So don't equate an Avatar to Hockey rules and therefore everything else is second - if Hockey doesn't produce, then the fans find other things to spend their money on, plain and simple. Again, blaming Football's problems on Hockey's success is idiotic and small minded...no correlation and thus no causation.

[Oxbow6]

Again, BS...I was at UND when the Hockey teams just plain stunk (Ultimately, we fired the winningest hockey coach in Sioux history after that) and it was easy to get a ticket and the Football teams were starting to draw more and more people and the women's basketball was on a winning streak. So don't equate an Avatar to Hockey rules and therefore everything else is second - if Hockey doesn't produce, then the fans find other things to spend their money on, plain and simple. Again, blaming Football's problems on Hockey's success is idiotic and small minded...no correlation and thus no causation.

Ohio State is a FB school but their men's BB program is top 10 every year. Florida is a FB school but their men's BB program is top 10 every year. The AC has a stellar FB program and their men's BB program for a mid major is pretty good too. Schools can and do have success with 2 major men's programs. UND can too with FB and hockey...heck throw in men's BB now that it seems to be on the rise.

This enabling the FB program to be medicore mentality because UND is a hockey school has to stop.

[darell1976]

Ohio State is a FB school but their men's BB program is top 10 every year. Florida is a FB school but their men's BB program is top 10 every year. The AC has a stellar FB program and their men's BB program for a mid major is pretty good too. Schools can and do have success with 2 major men's programs. UND can to with FB and hockey...heck throw in men's BB now that it seems to be on the rise.

This enabling the FB program to be medicore mentality because UND is a hockey school has to stop.

Exactly...remember in 2001 UND was playing for a NC in 2 sports (football, hockey), and just gone done winning a NC in 2000, 3 NC in women's basketball in 97-99. From 97-2003 UND was playing for 8 National Championships in 3 sports (3 hockey, 3 WBB, and 2 FB). That was a great time in UND athletics, and it can happen again (except basketball unless UND becomes a Butler).

[mizzou/sioux]

I'll take a stab at that. Sports can be cyclical. Ups and downs. Nobody stays great forever, usually nobody stays awful forever. (Goph's beat Nebraska on Saturday!) Clearly right now, we're down. Losing Lennon and much of the staff early in the transition was crippling in a lot of ways. People say that's an excuse, but it's a fact. Clearly UND hasn't thrown money at Mussman to build an experienced staff. So, we have probably the most "green" staff I can remember right now.

The best thing about rookie coordinators is they become second year coordinators. The best thing about Freshman qb's, is they become sophomores. Last year was actually better than I expected it to be, largely due to getting a solid QB transfer along with a 5th year senior who was finally ready for the job. It naurally raised our expectations for this year. I never expected us to be dominant in the Big Sky in the first few years. I expected us to take our lumps. I'm as impatient as any Sioux football fan out there, but I don't think we match up well yet with the top third of the BSC in terms of overall talent, strength, depth, coaching staff knowledge, experience or funding. I think all those factors go into it, not simply the head coaching. I still look at it as a learning process, for the players, staff, head coach and administration.

I think it's a complex situation, and the simplistic solution that the coach has to be fired is not the best answer. You're solution appears to be we need to blow it up and start over. That's kind of what happened when Lennon left. But, I just don't think the answer is going the Tea Party route...................We're mad, we don't like something, so we've got to blow it all up. If we end up doing that you will see the proverbial 10 year black hole of UND football. You may think we'd be digging our way out of the hole, but it will just be a different deep hole.

I don't personally know any of the staff. There are 3 assistants with ties to the strong UND football past, and a head coach who was a great coordinator himself, that hasn't been handed the best circumstances. I know people don't want to hear the "P" word, but I still think the benefits of a little more Patience will have us better off in 2 years than blowing up the staff this winter will. Just my honest difference of opinion from following the program for a long time.

Sports is uinquestionably cyclical. It is most interesting to note that the Minnesota Gophers finally broke their 16-game losing streak to Nebraska. Yet, Nebraska, with one of the most solid and glorious football histories throughout time in the United States, had its own low moments, after establishing a powerful program that had a good deal of success prior to the U.S. involvement in World War II. During the period from 1942 through 1961, the Huskers were only 68-120-4, according to stats provided by Wikipedia. Then along came Bob Devaney and Tom Osborne and we know the rest.

It takes time sometimes to become a good head coach after having been a coaching assistant. As has already been pointed out, Lennon took many of his assistants along with him. This is not intended as a knock on Lennon. Then, the SUs moved up and were able to gain a monumental recruiting advantage over us. In small ways we are making progress. Our defense appears to be improving. However, one can't fault the defense for making Portland State score as such on a short field.

Yes, Devaney was able to turn things around at Nebraska the first year he arrived there. Kudos to him. Apparently the surprising win over an established national FCS contender (Montana) just a year later doesn't hold much water at all.

[UND92,96]

Sports is uinquestionably cyclical. It is most interesting to note that the Minnesota Gophers finally broke their 16-game losing streak to Nebraska. Yet, Nebraska, with one of the most solid and glorious football histories throughout time in the United States, had its own low moments, after establishing a powerful program that had a good deal of success prior to the U.S. involvement in World War II. During the period from 1942 through 1961, the Huskers were only 68-120-4, according to stats provided by Wikipedia. Then along came Bob Devaney and Tom Osborne and we know the rest.

It takes time sometimes to become a good head coach after having been a coaching assistant. As has already been pointed out, Lennon took many of his assistants along with him. This is not intended as a knock on Lennon. Then, the SUs moved up and were able to gain a monumental recruiting advantage over us. In small ways we are making progress. Our defense appears to be improving. However, one can't fault the defense for making Portland State score as such on a short field.

Yes, Devaney was able to turn things around at Nebraska the first year he arrived there. Kudos to him. Apparently the surprising win over an established national FCS contender (Montana) just a year later doesn't hold much water at all.

And speaking of Nebraska, many followers of Husker football feel the aforementioned loss to Minnesota was the last straw for Bo Pelini. I fully expect Nebraska to have a different coach next season. Which would likely mean that many, if not all of the current Nebraska assistants will be looking for new jobs this off season. Will this have any bearing on UND? Who knows.

[mizzou/sioux]

And speaking of Nebraska, many followers of Husker football feel the aforementioned loss to Minnesota was the last straw for Bo Pelini. I fully expect Nebraska to have a different coach next season. Which would likely mean that many, if not all of the current Nebraska assistants will be looking for new jobs this off season. Will this have any bearing on UND? Who knows.

Trivia question here: We know that Nebraska had its 16-game winning streak over the Gophers snapped the other day. But, which school at this point owns the margin in the overall series between the schools? Ans: With Saturday's 34-23 victory the Gophers now lead the series 30 wins to 22 losses and 2 ties.

[Siouxperfan7]

Exactly...remember in 2001 UND was playing for a NC in 2 sports (football, hockey), and just gone done winning a NC in 2000, 3 NC in women's basketball in 97-99. From 97-2003 UND was playing for 8 National Championships in 3 sports (3 hockey, 3 WBB, and 2 FB). That was a great time in UND athletics, and it can happen again (except basketball unless UND becomes a Butler).

UND played for 3 National Championships in 2001. Womens basketball lost in OT of the NC to Cal Poly Pamona. Agreed that that was a great time for UND Sports. Winning Big Sky titles and conference titles and tournament bids is the most our basketball can hope for. But that is a pretty bid success as well!!

[zonadub]

This enabling the FB program to be medicore mentality because UND is a hockey school has to stop.

This^^^^*

[SWSiouxMN]

The only place where 0.500 is an acceptable record at UND is in its Meteorology grads (because that's considered good for those guys).

I think we have the potential to do better than that, that is unacceptable even to us Met grads

[BJC]

my thought on this is you as fans take money out of youre pockets every other weekend to see a winning football team, it can be a lot of money to some people, two kids, tailgating, food at the game etc. etc. adds up to 200$ or more for me. So if you go to toasted frog or another swank restaurant and get !@#!$ service or food are you just sit back and take it or are you going to bitch about the cook or waitress to the manager. this is essentialy the exact same thing. these people are not performing their jobs to the expectations of their customers.

this!

[BJC]

Bitching about things doesn't get you as far as being polite and giving honest feedback. If you walked into a nice restaurant and started bitching or demanding that the cook gets fired you aren't going to get nearly the same reaction from management as if you politely asked to talk with the manager and explained what was wrong. You are more likely to have someone spit in your drink or your food if you take that attitude. "Bitching" about "!@#!$" is not a good way to handle problems.

but this is a message board/forum.......not the head coaches front lawn

[82SiouxGuy]

but this is a message board/forum.......not the head coaches front lawn

It doesn't matter. Using some decorum will get better results in most cases than bitching, demanding or using bad language. And his example used a restaurant so I responded by using a restaurant example. Showing up on a coaches front lawn shouldn't even be considered.

[BJC]

Question for everyone...IF Muss stays and UND upsets FBS San Jose St on August 30th...will all be forgotten at least up til that point or do we still want him replaced?

If they played today.....in GF....Fales would put up 100+ points.

*I was very excited about this season and upset I didn't purchase season tickets.......not upset today. I love watching any football...but after the MSU game, very happy I didn't get them. If that is someone being "too negative" on a fire the head ball coach thread...so be it.

[Shawn-O]

Mussman jumped the shark the day of the Sioux Falls loss as far as I'm concerned.

[fightingsioux4life]

It doesn't matter. Using some decorum will get better results in most cases than bitching, demanding or using bad language. And his example used a restaurant so I responded by using a restaurant example. Showing up on a coaches front lawn shouldn't even be considered.

And the "Conscience of SS.com" has spoken once more. I thought we were finished with that crap when PCM picked up his toys and went home. Guess I was wrong.

[jdub27]

And the "Conscience of SS.com" has spoken once more. I thought we were finished with that crap when PCM picked up his toys and went home. Guess I was wrong.

I thought you were all for people being able to discuss things?

[82SiouxGuy]

And the "Conscience of SS.com" has spoken once more. I thought we were finished with that crap when PCM picked up his toys and went home. Guess I was wrong.

So, no one is allowed to have an opinion that doesn't agree with you. There sure seems to be a lot of group think going on here. I stated my opinions and I wasn't responding to you. Or are you one of those morons that think it is perfectly acceptable to go to a coaches house to put up signs or vandalize?

[fightingsioux4life]

So, no one is allowed to have an opinion that doesn't agree with you. There sure seems to be a lot of group think going on here. I stated my opinions and I wasn't responding to you. Or are you one of those morons that think it is perfectly acceptable to go to a coaches house to put up signs or vandalize?

I thought you were all for people being able to discuss things?

Once again, you both are being (as Sid Hartman would say) "selective listeners". jdub27, you are right, I want to hear all opinions whether I like them or not. And 82SiouxGuy, I never said anything about harassing coaches at home. I just get sick and tired of you implying to people that they are out of line for venting their frustrations and/or expressing their opinions whether or not the FB (or any other of our programs) are headed in the right direction. You just seem to be advocating for a litmus test for messages that people post on here. If you think Mussman should get another year to turn this shell of a program around, that is fine. I don't agree with it, but I don't have a problem with you posting it. What I have a problem with is you telling other people to basically stop posting their opinions because they aren't "nice".

And as for "group think", you are the one that parrots whatever the establishment says about anything (hockey shuttles, FB scheduling, TV coverage, etc.), and then criticizes people like myself who have the audacity and the unmitigated gall to question the answers we are given when they smell fishy.

Like I have said before, I couldn't care less if people don't like what I post, just don't tell me that it's out of line to post my opinions and vent whenever I need to. This is a discussion forum, not the Harvard Debate Club.

[BJC]

It doesn't matter. Using some decorum will get better results in most cases than bitching, demanding or using bad language. And his example used a restaurant so I responded by using a restaurant example. Showing up on a coaches front lawn shouldn't even be considered.

I understand what you are saying but anyone who expects results from posting on a forum might want to rethink their options. As I don't see post on this forum being used to make athletic dept decisions.

[82SiouxGuy]

I understand what you are saying but anyone who expects results from posting on a forum might want to rethink their options. As I don't see post on this forum being used to make athletic dept decisions.

I've said many times that you don't get results from posting on internet forums. If you have a real complaint, or a real question, go to the people that actually can control the situation or provide the answer. People that think they are actually accomplishing anything by posting on this, or any other forum, are just plain wrong. But I think you will get better results if you are polite and professional rather than acting like a child. That's what I was talking about in the restaurant example.