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OgieOgilthorpe

ND High School Hockey 2017-18

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2 hours ago, SiouxVolley said:

West Fargo Sheyenne will emerge as a power just based on the earnings of their parents.  Don’t underestimate that.

Shanley, St Mary’s, and Ryan can increase enrollment by taking over for what were formerly Jr Gold programs.  Some kids just want to play but are not skilled enough for higher level HS programs.  Private schools generally need a selling points for kids to enroll.

Cando can work with Langdon, which would increase numbers.

I started an AA vs A NDHS hockey conversation here, and some posters here immediately poo-pooed it and now the local radio station is talking it up as serious.  Don’t even live in ND, but think small town ND should have hockey.  Co-oping with big schools means a lot of kids in smaller schools will drop the sport.   GF or Fargo vs MayPort CGHillsboro CV-Hatton-Northwood-Finley-Sharon just won’t fly.

I agree that WF Sheyenne will improve but let's be real, they'll never be a powerhouse. Even with the big numbers advantage, the Fargo area just doesn't produce hockey players. If you look at their enrollment vs hockey player numbers, I'd be willing to bet they have some of the worst hockey player producing schools per capita in the state for class A schools. 

Again...South, Shanley and Oak Grove all have to combine to make one team and a small team at that. They struggle to keep strong numbers for a JV and Varsity team. Why would you think Shanley could all of the sudden support a full roster by themselves?

Bismarck does not have a Jr. Gold team so not sure how taking over a non-existing team will help anything? St Mary's probably only sends what, 4 or less players on average to BHS and BC? Can any Bismarck folk confirm that? 

Minot does not have a Jr. Gold team so not sure how taking over a non-existing team will help anything? Ryan probably sends 2 or less players on average to Minot High.

Cando would probably never work with Langdon because they're 60 miles a part and DL is only 35. Even if they did work with Langdon, Cando would only be able to provide 1-2 HS players a year...if any.

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1 minute ago, geaux_sioux said:

Essentially. Wouldn’t you want them to have a school to attach to? Or would they just be the Grand Forks Fighting Rejects?

How about the Grand Forks Fighting Leftovers? 

It is true though. Grand Forks youth hockey gets bottle necked so badly by the High School system that dozens of kids get squeezed out every season. I bet the left over kids from RR and Central could combine to make a pretty decent squad. Looks like they've even created 2 Jr. Gold teams now because of those extra kids. 

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Seem to be missing the points on all of these.

Davies is similar to Sheyenne as far as demographics go.  West Fargo has so much growth that a 3rd HS is even being talked about.  Sheyenne and Davies will be the preeminent hockey schools in Fargo-West Fargo just because more those parents can afford hockey and all the costs.

A two class system would allow marginal hockey players to enroll in private schools and compete.  Shanley-Oak Grove-Park Christian can co-op.  St Mary’s-Shiloh and Ryan-Our Redeemers-Nedrose-South Prairie can do the same.  

Cando might not have numbers, but co-oping with a similar size school can do wonders for numbers.  Bottineau co-ops with Rugby, and that is comparable to a Langdon co-op with DL.

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13 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

How about the Grand Forks Fighting Leftovers? 

It is true though. Grand Forks youth hockey gets bottle necked so badly by the High School system that dozens of kids get squeezed out every season. I bet the left over kids from RR and Central could combine to make a pretty decent squad. Looks like they've even created 2 Jr. Gold teams now because of those extra kids. 

Maybe create a GF Community HS -which is a school-  hockey team and co-op with Sacred Heart and Riverside Christian HS.

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15 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

How about the Grand Forks Fighting Leftovers? 

It is true though. Grand Forks youth hockey gets bottle necked so badly by the High School system that dozens of kids get squeezed out every season. I bet the left over kids from RR and Central could combine to make a pretty decent squad. Looks like they've even created 2 Jr. Gold teams now because of those extra kids. 

Is that those Grand Forks Red and Black teams? 

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19 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

Seem to be missing the points on all of these.

Davies is similar to Sheyenne as far as demographics go.  West Fargo has so much growth that a 3rd HS is even being talked about.  Sheyenne and Davies will be the preeminent hockey schools in Fargo-West Fargo just because more those parents can afford hockey and all the costs.

A two class system would allow marginal hockey players to enroll in private schools and compete.  Shanley-Oak Grove-Park Christian can co-op.  St Mary’s-Shiloh and Ryan-Our Redeemers-Nedrose-South Prairie can do the same.  

Cando might not have numbers, but co-oping with a similar size school can do wonders for numbers.  Bottineau co-ops with Rugby, and that is comparable to a Langdon co-op with DL.

I get what you're saying and it makes sense to me. Davies and Sheyenne will be the better hockey schools in the Fargo area for sure. I'm just saying that they'll never be a GF or a Moorhead. They're just not in a high hockey producing area for whatever reason. 

Completely agree on the co-op point you made and most of the options you're listing would probably be great. Just pointing out that Cando doesn't make any sense for anyone other than DL. And Langdon is so far away from anyone that they might not make sense for any co-ops. Both Grafton and DL would be a stretch for them. They're best hope would be pulling kids into their own team from Cavalier and Pembina. All of those small communities are only getting smaller too, so it's only going to get worse. 

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18 hours ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

How about the Grand Forks Fighting Leftovers? 

It is true though. Grand Forks youth hockey gets bottle necked so badly by the High School system that dozens of kids get squeezed out every season. I bet the left over kids from RR and Central could combine to make a pretty decent squad. Looks like they've even created 2 Jr. Gold teams now because of those extra kids. 

The flip side to this is that FYHA develops kids through Bantams and then they get scattered amongst how many different teams?  Somebody mentioned how the Fargo area just doesn't produce hockey players.  I disagree, they do, the problem is the best players get scattered all over the city once they hit HS.  The exact same thing happens in the Twin Cities with high schools that share a local youth hockey program as their feeder system.  The best HS programs are the ones that are linear in nature, where there is one youth program feeding one HS program, with the exception of the privates which I will not count in this situation.  That happens right now on the other side of the river in Moorhead.  You trying to tell me that the kids are different or there is some sort of special water on the other side of the river?  No way, so why is it? 

It's due to exposure to a high level of competition through each level of a player's youth career.  Players that don't make the top team and get buried down on the B2 and C teams, or even some B1 teams, just don't receive the same level of development that the top players on the AA & A teams receive.  They also don't have the same general level of desire.  These kids aren't stupid, they know where they rank on the pecking order by the time they are placed on a Squirt team, they start to lose that extra bit of grit and desire that players on the top teams have as each year passes and they remain placed on lower level teams. 

The answer is to either make the feeder system linear, one youth program per HS, or for FYHA to field multiple top teams at each level, enough to match the number of HS they are feeding.  Yeah, the teams will lose, but that is in the short term, development will happen and by Bantams the teams will be competitive.  It's not any different than a co-op situation.  When you resort to co-oping the writing is on the wall that the two individual programs are dead and will likely not be returning as the people settle into the new norm and become comfortable, or complacent, with it.  FYHA is just co-oping right off the jump. 

There are many who would say that youth programs should not exist to feed HS programs.  That their purpose is to provide recreational opportunities for kids.  Okay, I'll listen to that perspective, and I almost wish it was that way, but I think it's a little naïve when you look at the rest of the youth hockey world.

So yeah, a little off topic, but some food for discussion. 

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19 minutes ago, Yote 53 said:

The flip side to this is that FYHA develops kids through Bantams and then they get scattered amongst how many different teams?  Somebody mentioned how the Fargo area just doesn't produce hockey players.  I disagree, they do, the problem is the best players get scattered all over the city once they hit HS.  The exact same thing happens in the Twin Cities with high schools that share a local youth hockey program as their feeder system.  The best HS programs are the ones that are linear in nature, where there is one youth program feeding one HS program, with the exception of the privates which I will not count in this situation.  That happens right now on the other side of the river in Moorhead.  You trying to tell me that the kids are different or there is some sort of special water on the other side of the river?  No way, so why is it? 

It's due to exposure to a high level of competition through each level of a player's youth career.  Players that don't make the top team and get buried down on the B2 and C teams, or even some B1 teams, just don't receive the same level of development that the top players on the AA & A teams receive.  They also don't have the same general level of desire.  These kids aren't stupid, they know where they rank on the pecking order by the time they are placed on a Squirt team, they start to lose that extra bit of grit and desire that players on the top teams have as each year passes and they remain placed on lower level teams. 

The answer is to either make the feeder system linear, one youth program per HS, or for FYHA to field multiple top teams at each level, enough to match the number of HS they are feeding.  Yeah, the teams will lose, but that is in the short term, development will happen and by Bantams the teams will be competitive.  It's not any different than a co-op situation.  When you resort to co-oping the writing is on the wall that the two individual programs are dead and will likely not be returning as the people settle into the new norm and become comfortable, or complacent, with it.  FYHA is just co-oping right off the jump. 

There are many who would say that youth programs should not exist to feed HS programs.  That their purpose is to provide recreational opportunities for kids.  Okay, I'll listen to that perspective, and I almost wish it was that way, but I think it's a little naïve when you look at the rest of the youth hockey world.

So yeah, a little off topic, but some food for discussion. 

Fargo finally got the state to allow them to have a AA bantam program which will help the top end kids by allowing them to play against better competition. Last year was the first season for Fargo at that level and it just worked out that all but 1 or 2 kids that made that team are Davies kids. If each high  school had the numbers to support a Bantam team at that level that would be great. The biggest thing Moorhead has going for it is culture and having the High School coaches being involved and sharing their philosophies and what they expect for style of play, systems, power play, etc. certainly helps. Lets just say the High School coaches in Fargo are involved in the youth program at varying levels of interest and influence.

Competing against the best is definitely the best case scenario for your top end players but with a goal of being competitive and also of player development in youth hockey and kids growing and developing at different rates it is not always the worst case for a kid who might be good enough to make the first team and play a limited role to maybe develop leadership qualities and be allowed to get more ice time and be a key player in different situations for the 2nd team...and this isn't just true in the youth levels. Example--I won't use his name but I know a kid who had a pretty good high school career in Minnesota and tried out for the USHL and was told they wanted to keep him on the team. He would have been their 7th defenseman to start the year. He also had tried out for and been offered a spot on an NAHL team which he ended up taking for his first year of juniors where he was on their top pair of D and was key to their power play and penalty kill. It allowed him to develop and become a leader and he played in the USHL the following year and then accepted 1 of the several offers he received to play College Hockey. 

I don't disagree with the desire and ideal situation of having a feeder program for each school but then it is a catch 22 where your best players may not be challenged by playing below their compete level.

Agree. The objective should be to do both but that is a tough objective to meet.

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Perhaps there would be more high school coaches involved and they would take more ownership if the programs did have a linear structure.  You mentioned Moorhead, that is what happens there and in many other solid programs because those coaches know they need the Jimmies and Joes coming out of youth hockey to be competitive on the HS level.

Agreed that combining and playing at the AA level will produce higher end players as those players will be challenged.  Where the problem arises is when they break off at HS, you run into depth issues.  It's difficult to foresee the future and know the right moves to make.  I know one move for sure, recruit as many Mites as possible and don't stop recruiting.  With a large enough base of players the talent will rise to the top.  The more players, the more talent that rises.

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What is the specific problem that is trying to be rectified?  Trying to establish a more balanced and competitive HS league?   Produce the most college players possible?

I don't see the point in having a tier 1 team.  It would destroy high school hockey.  If a couple elite kids who are legitimate prospects need to bolt for better competition their junior and senior years that's great, but to take a bunch of good high school players, that will never be anything better than good high school players, out of the system seems wasteful.  

I know parents think their kid is the greatest and will be playing in the NHL in a few years,  but giving up HS, and chance to win a state title is foolish for 98% of the kids.

I do agree that a 2 class system for the HS league would be appropriate.  Dividing them would be the interesting part.  I'd say 6 teams are clearly at the top, and after that it gets difficult.

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I just like talking hockey and shooting ideas back and forth.  The discussion, just making hockey bigger and better everywhere.  I know I don't know everything and there is no one size fits all answer.  I do believe that it all starts at ownership and recruitment, that is why I identify with the more linear approach because it puts the onus back on the school and community to recruit and develop rather than just working with what they are handed at HS, or the HS is at the mercy of the luck of the draw as far as school boundaries go.

Tier 1 already exists in the form of Team North Dakota.  I agree that I don't think a full season Tier 1 team is necessary in NoDak.  You have players up there on HS teams that are getting invites to the NTDP and are committed to D1 schools.  Visibility isn't an issue.  Where I live it is a big issue and if you want to have any chance of making it to even the NAHL then Tier 1 is your only route.  High school hockey exists but it is not even looked at.  I spoke with a Junior hockey coach last season and we were discussing a player that was at his main camp that was from my area.  He said he liked the kid but he came out of nowhere, that he spent one year playing Tier 1 U16 and before that he was playing Rec hockey somewhere.  Just needed to see more out of him before he took him as a 17 year old.  That Rec hockey league was the Midwest HS Hockey League.  That's how our HS hockey is viewed.  I don't think it's fair, there are some pretty good players in that league, but it's the reality of what we deal with.

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We did an A team B team setup for a youth club sport back in the day and alot of parents didn't like it because they felt slighted if their kid was on the B team, especially if their kid had friends on the A team. One mom complained until her son was placed on the A team. He rode the bench the entire season and barely played at all because he wasn't any good. Meanwhile, on the B team, a bunch of kids who would have been bench warmers got a ton of playing time and improved the entire season. A few of those B team kids ended up being All State as seniors in highschool and I would attribute alot of that to their time on the B team and the extra minutes they got as a result. The kid who rode the bench on the A team rode the bench as a senior. 

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FYI - ND Bantam Team Numbers -  The number of kids on each team varies quite a bit.

6 - GF  AA, A, A, B1, B1, B

6 - Fargo AA, A, B1, B1, B, B

5 - Bismarck A, A, B1, B, B

4 - WF A, A, B, B

3 - Minot A, B1, B

2 - Williston  A, B

2 - Jamestown/VC B1, B

2 - Mandan B1, B

1 - Devils Lake A (bumped to B1 for state tournament)

1 - Grafton A

1 - Mayport A

1 - Dickinson  B1

1 - Angels (Fargo B1)

1 - Park River B1

1 - Northwood B

1 - Rugby B

1 - Richland (MT) B

1 - Watford City B

1 - Hazen B

1 - Crosby B

1 - Bottineau B

 

Edited by Walsh Hall
Add classification

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11 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

Looks like Mayvllie-Portland-Clifford-Galesburg-Hillsboro-Central Valley-Hatton-Northwood-Finley-Sharon-Hope-Page will get a berth in next years EDC hockey region tournament.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/sports/hockey/4428702-may-port-ice-dawgs-expected-get-region-tourney-opportunity

The PA guy is gonna have fun with that.

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43 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

Looks like Mayvllie-Portland-Clifford-Galesburg-Hillsboro-Central Valley-Hatton-Northwood-Finley-Sharon-Hope-Page will get a berth in next years EDC hockey region tournament.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/sports/hockey/4428702-may-port-ice-dawgs-expected-get-region-tourney-opportunity

This going to be another Wahpeton/Breckinridge kind of team?

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On 4/7/2018 at 10:15 PM, SiouxVolley said:

Looks like Mayvllie-Portland-Clifford-Galesburg-Hillsboro-Central Valley-Hatton-Northwood-Finley-Sharon-Hope-Page will get a berth in next years EDC hockey region tournament.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/sports/hockey/4428702-may-port-ice-dawgs-expected-get-region-tourney-opportunity

At least they kept the central valley instead of listing out Buxton Reynolds.

The MPCGHBRHNFSHP Ice Dawgs... for short.

Wonder where the kids from Cummings play tho?

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46 minutes ago, Frozen4sioux said:

At least they kept the central valley instead of listing out Buxton Reynolds.

The MPCGHBRHNFSHP Ice Dawgs... for short.

Wonder where the kids from Cummings play tho?

Only included those names because those co-ops supply players.  Maybe Norman County West ( Halstad-Hendrum-Perley ) co-op with Hillsboro-Central Valley and they can be a Minnesota Class A team and a few more letters get added.

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Wonder if this means anything??

 

Mike Peluso‏ @wizwrap 17h17 hours ago

More

I don’t normally do this. I was given some tough news this week on my employment situation. The circumstances of it were completely out of my hands and I’m currently left unemployed. So, if anyone knows of something this old hockey player/fishermen can do to put food on the table

  • Upvote 1

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6 hours ago, 90siouxfan said:

Wonder if this means anything??

 

Mike Peluso‏ @wizwrap 17h17 hours ago

More

I don’t normally do this. I was given some tough news this week on my employment situation. The circumstances of it were completely out of my hands and I’m currently left unemployed. So, if anyone knows of something this old hockey player/fishermen can do to put food on the table

This the same guy Prpich fought?

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9 hours ago, 90siouxfan said:

Wonder if this means anything??

 

Mike Peluso‏ @wizwrap 17h17 hours ago

More

I don’t normally do this. I was given some tough news this week on my employment situation. The circumstances of it were completely out of my hands and I’m currently left unemployed. So, if anyone knows of something this old hockey player/fishermen can do to put food on the table

I guess he can go coach junior A or try to get in with a college team.

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7 hours ago, cberkas said:

I guess he can go coach junior A or try to get in with a college team.

I don't know if coaching was his main job, but either way points to a possible change at BHS.

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