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2024 UND Football


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3 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

No one is arguing this isn't an important year for a whole bunch of reasons. But some of the suggestions are so far from being based in reality, starting to think half this board is made up of ndsu accounts just having fun at UND's expense.

This is the type of paranoid rationalization I’d expect from someone who is too stubborn and nearsighted (credit to @The Sicatoka) to understand and accept what is needed for UND football to take that next step. 

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11 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Year-End Massey Ratings
2008       28
2009       40
2010       48
2011       36
2012       35
2013       68
2014       64
2015       32
2016       21
2017       43
2018       27
2019       21
2020       6*
2021       14
2022       14
2023       15

The continuous repeating that things are a disaster isn't reflected by any hard data. And Mussman vs. Bubba is a hilarious comparison despite the different challenges both had to work with.
It's clear the next step is to continuously win playoff games and get the rankings into the single digits but the program as a whole has continued to take steps forward. Easy to be jaded when the two closest schools to you happen to be in your conference and also easily two of the top programs in the country over the last 15 years.
No one is arguing this isn't an important year for a whole bunch of reasons. But some of the suggestions are so far from being based in reality, starting to think half this board is made up of ndsu accounts just having fun at UND's expense.

 Baby steps jdub  baby steps.  Need to start with winning a $@&?!  playoff game before the word continuously can be addressed .  And no I don’t consider the ridiculous covid year a true legit season. Let’s start with that.  

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13 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Year-End Massey Ratings
2008       28
2009       40
2010       48
2011       36
2012       35
2013       68
2014       64
2015       32
2016       21
2017       43
2018       27
2019       21
2020       6*
2021       14
2022       14
2023       15

The continuous repeating that things are a disaster isn't reflected by any hard data. And Mussman vs. Bubba is a hilarious comparison despite the different challenges both had to work with.
It's clear the next step is to continuously win playoff games and get the rankings into the single digits but the program as a whole has continued to take steps forward. Easy to be jaded when the two closest schools to you happen to be in your conference and also easily two of the top programs in the country over the last 15 years.
No one is arguing this isn't an important year for a whole bunch of reasons. But some of the suggestions are so far from being based in reality, starting to think half this board is made up of ndsu accounts just having fun at UND's expense.

Couple questions before I join your side.  You almost have me 

-For you and your group …what is a requirement for a successful year? 

-For an upcoming season what should be some expectations .  Never mind.  Just name an one expectation 

-Are you and the crew ok with losing every single road game to a rated team every single season? 

-Does bubba show great leadership? 

-does bubba show confidence?

-when talking hard data …does that include hard stats or just hard Massey ratings? 
 

-does it hurt inside when expectations are lowered every year ?

-when other people are continuously repeating things are a disaster …is that fake news ? 



 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Longtime fan said:

So I did a little research on both mussman and bubba.  Mussman was 31-34 at und. Bubba is 61-50 at und.   Mussmans best year was 8-3 while be named coach of the year bubbas best is 9-3 while being named coach of the year.  All the rest of the seasons were average to bad for both.  I would say bubbas best team was the 2015 seasons. The roster was filled with mussmans recuits.  
 

If you look at what both had to start with ….Bubba had much more.  Again.  Mussman took over day 1 for the D1 era.  He worked namely with D2 guys.  He had to recruit hard to get  some talent here.  And as we know it takes football recruits  usually more than a couple months to get D1 ready.  Bubba has much better facilities.  Bubba had the big sky and mvfc to sell recruits to.  Much more stable and prestige.   FCS was also much stronger back then. So many schools have moved up that we’re competing for top dog. Now there’s a handful of decent teams.  
 

To be clear …I’m not advocating that mussman was better than bubba.  I’m advocating both were/are horrible head coaches.  Bubbas firsr 4 years were a plus but now it’s like und is right back to 2012 but more frustrating because they have resources and knowledge that they didn’t have at the beginning of the D1 era.  Bubbas sell to und is light years ahead of what mussman had to work with.  
 

Beyond frustrating 

Mussman was NOT a bad recruiter.  We had Kenny Goliday who lit things up pretty good as a true freshman and then went FBS when Muss got the axe.  Muss just didn't know what to do with some of his better recruits.

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4 minutes ago, Hawkster said:

Mussman was NOT a bad recruiter.  We had Kenny Goliday who lit things up pretty good as a true freshman and then went FBS when Muss got the axe.  Muss just didn't know what to do with some of his better recruits.

Never said that once. In fact quite the opposite.  He brought in by far better players than bubba.  I also said it was more difficult for him to recruit based on what he had to work with. Also said bubbas best teams were with mussmans recruits.     Not  sure where you got that from ? 

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12 minutes ago, Irish said:

Kalen didn't have the old school group of Bubba supporters lobbying hard for him - they had influence with the administration.  This disaster is mostly on them.  

Exactly.  Good ol boys club doing what they do best. 

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2 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

1. KEM is neither "baba yaga" nor running the department. 

2. As Kelly Howe has pointed out, a lame duck coach (2024 and 2025 left on deal and likely no extension) does not scream 'stability'. A number of different people could make moves to resolve this but none have. Is it due to myopia (they don't see the lack of stability and issues it brings) or  just stubborness. 

Trying to figure this out - so does this mean in all cases that when a coach gets down to his last two seasons on his contract the only option for a school is to renew them during their second to the last year or suffer through two years with a lame duck coach? 

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53 minutes ago, Longtime fan said:

Couple questions before I join your side.  You almost have me 

-For you and your group …what is a requirement for a successful year? 

-For an upcoming season what should be some expectations .  Never mind.  Just name an one expectation 

-Are you and the crew ok with losing every single road game to a rated team every single season? 

-Does bubba show great leadership? 

-does bubba show confidence?

-when talking hard data …does that include hard stats or just hard Massey ratings? 
 

-does it hurt inside when expectations are lowered every year ?

-when other people are continuously repeating things are a disaster …is that fake news ? 



 

 

 

 

As the Massey rankings suggest, UND is about ~15th in the FCS and I agree with that. But there are numerous concerns suggesting that UND’s ceiling under Bubba is around 15th (current coach exodus, no significant road wins, lack of leadership, mediocre recruiting, no playoff wins, etc.) and 2024 is likely a season of regression. NDSU and SDSU‘s success puts pressure on UND, yes, but that still doesn’t excuse extending a coach like Bubba year after year. In fact, NDSU and SDSU’s success should give Bubba less leniency, not more.  

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4 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

As the Massey rankings suggest, UND is about ~15th in the FCS and I agree with that. But there are numerous concerns suggesting that UND’s ceiling under Bubba is around 15th (current coach exodus, no significant road wins, lack of leadership, mediocre recruiting, no playoff wins, etc.) and 2024 is likely a season of regression. NDSU and SDSU‘s success puts pressure on UND, yes, but that still doesn’t excuse extending a coach like Bubba year after year. In fact, NDSU and SDSU’s success should give Bubba less leniency, not more.  

15th in FCS could be looked at as 1st or 2nd in D2.  While 15 sounds good I think most that follow the FCS ….that won’t cut it.  So really I don’t care if und has a Massey rating of 3.  Massey ratings do not automatically give a team a championship.  Talent …competent coaching staff …etc will get a team to the championship.   We have bubba.  Bubba can’t do it for so many reasons.  We all know it.  Assistants know it.   It is such a rinse and repeat program.  My expectations have been lowered to the point that I now I have hope we can win a road game ???  Should that really be an expectation?   This is why it hurts. Bubba has completely drained me from excitement for this program.  
 

I mentioned this earlier but all the “kings “ of FCS are up in our neighborhood…..ndsu sdsu Montana Montana st.  They are all doing it.  Hell even USD is making waves.   Und just doing und things.   Bubba can’t sell this program and talent goes elsewhere.  Recruiting has been mouse quiet for ages .  Someone like Kalen could sell and can produce.    Und has great facilities. Great campus. Great school.  Horrible leadership and direction.  If und installed a young and talented staff… they could sell UNd over Ndsu or sdsu. If the recruits are willing to go there they could go here.  It’s all in proximity just stuck with a useless coach.  And of course money. Money money money. It’s hard for me to believe that a flagship like und can’t pay a football staff in equal to any surrounding college. 
 

With Joe leaving …that just broke the camels back for me.  The guy is good very good.  the only staffer ,imo, that was worth a damn.  I was neither here of there with freund, jake or any others.  Joe is very capable ..  now he’s gone.  But good for him and the others escaping this mediocre pit.  
 


I am just beyond frustrated   


 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Longtime fan said:

15th in FCS could be looked at as 1st or 2nd in D2.  While 15 sounds good I think most that follow the FCS ….that won’t cut it.  So really I don’t care if und has a Massey rating of 3.  Massey ratings do not automatically give a team a championship.  Talent …competent coaching staff …etc will get a team to the championship.   We have bubba.  Bubba can’t do it for so many reasons.  We all know it.  Assistants know it.   It is such a rinse and repeat program.  My expectations have been lowered to the point that I now I have hope we can win a road game ???  Should that really be an expectation?   This is why it hurts. Bubba has completely drained me from excitement for this program.  
 

I mentioned this earlier but all the “kings “ of FCS are up in our neighborhood…..ndsu sdsu Montana Montana st.  They are all doing it.  Hell even USD is making waves.   Und just doing und things.   Bubba can’t sell this program and talent goes elsewhere.  Recruiting has been mouse quiet for ages .  Someone like Kalen could sell and can produce.    Und has great facilities. Great campus. Great school.  Horrible leadership and direction.  If und installed a young and talented staff… they could sell UNd over Ndsu or sdsu. If the recruits are willing to go there they could go here.  It’s all in proximity just stuck with a useless coach.  And of course money. Money money money. It’s hard for me to believe that a flagship like und can’t pay a football staff in equal to any surrounding college. 
 

With Joe leaving …that just broke the camels back for me.  The guy is good very good.  the only staffer ,imo, that was worth a damn.  I was neither here of there with freund, jake or any others.  Joe is very capable ..  now he’s gone.  But good for him and the others escaping this mediocre pit.  
 


I am just beyond frustrated   


 

 

 

I believe that if Danny didn’t go none of them would have

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2 hours ago, jdub27 said:

Year-End Massey Ratings
2008       28
2009       40
2010       48
2011       36
2012       35
2013       68
2014       64
2015       32
2016       21
2017       43
2018       27
2019       21
2020       6*
2021       14
2022       14
2023       15

The continuous repeating that things are a disaster isn't reflected by any hard data. And Mussman vs. Bubba is a hilarious comparison despite the different challenges both had to work with.
It's clear the next step is to continuously win playoff games and get the rankings into the single digits but the program as a whole has continued to take steps forward. Easy to be jaded when the two closest schools to you happen to be in your conference and also easily two of the top programs in the country over the last 15 years.
No one is arguing this isn't an important year for a whole bunch of reasons. But some of the suggestions are so far from being based in reality, starting to think half this board is made up of ndsu accounts just having fun at UND's expense.

Another question. This hard data Massey rating thing.  How many playoff wins did mussman win and how many has bubba won ?

 * just a little reminder that Mussman teams weren’t eligible *

 

#disaster 

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8 hours ago, UND1983 said:

I would agree.  Unfortunately for Chaves and Bubba all the issues that were hidden are now being leaked slowly.  Not as a negative, but as a wake-up call that UND needs to change X, Y and Z or they will never catch those schools.  Former coaches are quickly finding out how lax and un-demanding our program was.  No edge.  No accountability.  

It's a damn country club at UND - like someone mentioned prior.  The only coaches that leave are the one's that have an ounce of desire.  

Re-read this.  100% verified by multiple coaches who have left.... through various channels.  Our program is a total outlier in what they demand and expect compared to our peers. 

I will add that this includes our athletic department.  Little expectations from our programs.  

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2 hours ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

This is the type of paranoid rationalization I’d expect from someone who is too stubborn and nearsighted (credit to @The Sicatoka) to understand and accept what is needed for UND football to take that next step. 

Paranoid rationalization? Is that what you read? Interesting interpretation.

If you're not satisfied with a top 20 FCS finish and a playoff loss, you  obviously have plenty of company. I think UND should be doing better, too.

Frustrated at the loss of two coaches -- one after more than a dozen years, another after five -- to higher-paying and perceived higher status programs? Agree wholeheartedly, and hopefully it adds fuel to the fire to improve coaches' salaries here.

Don't think Bubba can move the program further forward? You may be right, though I hardly think "greedy" is a fair description of the man.

 

But when two coaches leaving after a 7-5 season and a playoff appearance  is breathlessly sold as a "cratering" of the program, a dumpster fire,  a sinking  of the Titanic, it seems obvious rationality has left the building.  Hyperbole is the mother's milk of sports message boards, to be sure,  but if we ditched some of the hysterics it might be easier to have a realistic discussion on this forum on problems and solutions.

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16 minutes ago, zonadub said:

Serious question… why wasn’t Pawlak offered the OC position at UND after Freund and then again Landry left?

My hunch would be he indicated that he wasn't interested and was actively looking elsewhere at the time

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