Grand Forks Sales Tax Vote

[fightingsioux4life]

7 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Without getting too deep into politics, the simplistic philosophy on the other end of the political spectrum is just as laughable when trying to apply it in the real world.

That is true. There are extremes on both ends of the spectrum.

[SIOUXFAN97]

7 minutes ago, InHeavenThereIsNoBeer said:

 

I asked you for a solution to pay for infrastructure in Grand Forks(which is what this entire thread is about). You provided a very specific and hilarious way to recoup money for a federal program that would not fund Grand Forks' infrastructure. I think UNDBIZ has a valid request.  

first i was serious about snatching snap cards in the parking lot...and second if  federal programs like SNAP were trimmed in all 50 states my and YOUR taxes would go down...lets say 300 dollars a year....let's say that the sales tax is defeated so the city sends me and all property owners in GF a bill of 150 dollars a year...my taxes would still be lower by 150 dollars...

[Cratter]

Gotta think this tax passes easily. Mayor Brown has already stated they'll vote again if it fails. And the vote is basically just asking if they want to share their tax increase with out of towners.

[gfhockey]

The gobc wins again!

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

Yes, let's all celebrate higher taxes.

[UNDMOORHEAD]

On 11/6/2017 at 8:07 PM, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

Two thoughts about responsible use of public funds for "roads and bridges":

1.  Improving 42nd to go under/over the rail line is a luxury, not a necessity.  I've waited for those trains, and while a nuisance, it's never been a life or death situation.  There are alternate routes.  Maybe coordinating schedules with BNSF would be a good start.  Heck, I'd rather invest public funds to relocate the entire yard a few miles west of town.  THAT would be a re-development game changer for Grand Forks.

2.  I-29 interchanges should be paid for by the landowners who stand to benefit the most.  As the I-29 corridor is developed to the south, commercial and retail frontage properties will skyrocket in value.  The new interchange will spawn gas stations, convenience stores, restaurants, strip malls, and even single- and multi-family residential development.  Why give those landowners and developers a free ride?  The same analysis applies to the mythical bridge crossing the Red, and we can share half of that with Minnesota anyway.

I would prefer not to give the City a blank check for either project.

The BNSF doesn't have a schedule that can be coordinated. They also don't give a s&*^ about blocking that 42nd crossing. The train crews are aware of it and try to avoid blocking it, but a lot of times they don't have the option.

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

1 hour ago, UNDMOORHEAD said:

The BNSF doesn't have a schedule that can be coordinated. They also don't give a s&*^ about blocking that 42nd crossing. The train crews are aware of it and try to avoid blocking it, but a lot of times they don't have the option.

Well, Goddammit, let's pass a new tax for that, too.

[Cratter]

1 hour ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

Yes, let's all celebrate higher taxes.

I firmly believe in 20- 50 years the average sales tax in the USA will be over 10%.

[UNDMOORHEAD]

5 minutes ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

Well, Goddammit, let's pass a new tax for that, too.

I don't live there anymore so I don't have a horse in the race. I just know for a fact the BNSF doesn't care about 42nd with the exception of the crews that try to avoid blocking when they can. When I lived in GF I would always try to avoid 42nd st. when possible. I do the same thing in Fargo-Moorhead. Always try to avoid railroad crossings that I know I could be stuck at for a while. I am an impatient person though.

[LeftyZL]

11 minutes ago, Cratter said:

I firmly believe in 20- 50 years the average sales tax in the USA will be over 10%.

Sales tax in Duluth, MN is already at 10.625%

[Milford torgerson]

19 hours ago, Cratter said:

I firmly believe in 20- 50 years the average sales tax in the USA will be over 10%.

If our health care system progresses to implode there is always the chance for the powers that be to throw up their arms and install something modeled after the Canadian system in which case your belief would likely happen.

[IowaSioux24]

22 hours ago, LeftyZL said:

Sales tax in Duluth, MN is already at 10.625%

Are you sure, this site says 8.375% (which is still high in my opinion) https://www.taxrates.com/state-rates/minnesota/cities/duluth/

[Wildfan]

2 hours ago, IowaSioux24 said:

Are you sure, this site says 8.375% (which is still high in my opinion) https://www.taxrates.com/state-rates/minnesota/cities/duluth/

intersting that I found on the site that Fargo is 7.5%. Grand Forks will move up to 6.755 instead of 6.75. Yet now everyone will avoid Grand Forks because they raised taxes super high. I even heard arguments recently saying they will just go to Fargo where sales tax is lower, which is incorrect.

[Stromer]

7 hours ago, Wildfan said:

intersting that I found on the site that Fargo is 7.5%. Grand Forks will move up to 6.755 instead of 6.75. Yet now everyone will avoid Grand Forks because they raised taxes super high. I even heard arguments recently saying they will just go to Fargo where sales tax is lower, which is incorrect.

Isn't the 1/2% increase going to take it to 7.25%?

[Wildfan]

2 hours ago, Stromer said:

Isn't the 1/2% increase going to take it to 7.25%?

you are correct, I was wrong. Still lower than Fargo,. Ill start to worry if they try to do it again within the next few years, if it stops at this for atleast the 15-20 years, then I'd say it be okay. People have been acting like it was going up 50% and going to skyrocket if it was voted yes.

[Oxbow6]

10 minutes ago, Wildfan said:

you are correct, I was wrong. Still lower than Fargo,. Ill start to worry if they try to do it again within the next few years, if it stops at this for atleast the 15-20 years, then I'd say it be okay. People have been acting like it was going up 50% and going to skyrocket if it was voted yes.

It's ignorance and nothing more.  Some people can't see thru the "taxes are bad" mantra and drumbeat that's being spewed.

[jdub27]

18 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

It's ignorance and nothing more.  Some people can't see thru the "taxes are bad" mantra and drumbeat that's being spewed.

The first attempt got the results it deserved. They actually put some effort into this one and it did as well. Even so, I was actually surprised to see the margin it passed by.

[The Sicatoka]

2 hours ago, Stromer said:

Isn't the 1/2% increase going to take it to 7.25%?

 

34 minutes ago, Wildfan said:

People have been acting like it was going up 50% and going to skyrocket if it was voted yes.

Allow me to explain: People only half listen and well ... aren't always so sharp.  

They hear "half a percent" but only listen to the "half". Then they try to understand what they heard, but only listened to part of, and you get ...

"Half? HALF! My God! Half of something is 50%! That's a 50 percent increase they want to tack on!"

< facepalm > 

Hearing is not listening; Listening is not understanding. It's a three-step process and most fail miserably along the way. 

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

As a proud opponent of paying higher taxes generally, allow me to retort.

This has nothing to do with the half-cent, at least not on the micro level. And no, Sic, I am not so dim as to conflate one-half of one percent with going up by half.

This has everything to do with responsible use of taxpayer funds, the future, and the inevitable and insatiable lust of some policy makers for more.  Nearly every present tax started out as a temporary tax.  Sure, they are put forth for specific purposes, for specific time periods, yada, yada, yada.  But when is the last time the sun actually went down on a sales tax.  Before you know it, tax rates creep up and up.  And what was 5% not that long ago, and then bumped to 6 or 6.5%, is now 7.25 or 7.5%.  Where does it end?

There are alternatives.  Hotel and car rental taxes do not affect locals at all.  Sin taxes (alcohol, tobacco) do not affect everyone.  Even a restaurant tax can be avoided or mitigated by eating out less.  How about street parking permits?  How about bicycle registration fees to offset Greenway expenses?  Why not solicit voluntary donations? (After Tuesday, it sure seems like GF residents are ready to pony up.) Sell naming rights to public facilities?  Get creative, FFS.  Any Tom, Dick or Harry can slap on a sales tax.

I would even be in favor of a penny a post surcharge on siouxsports.com.  Where do I send that check for $12.98? 

[homer]

13 minutes ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

As a proud opponent of paying higher taxes generally, allow me to retort.

This has nothing to do with the half-cent, at least not on the micro level. And no, Sic, I am not so dim as to conflate one-half of one percent with going up by half.

This has everything to do with responsible use of taxpayer funds, the future, and the inevitable and insatiable lust of some policy makers for more.  Nearly every present tax started out as a temporary tax.  Sure, they are put forth for specific purposes, for specific time periods, yada, yada, yada.  But when is the last time the sun actually went down on a sales tax.  Before you know it, tax rates creep up and up.  And what was 5% not that long ago, and then bumped to 6 or 6.5%, is now 7.25 or 7.5%.  Where does it end?

There are alternatives.  Hotel and car rental taxes do not affect locals at all.  Sin taxes (alcohol, tobacco) do not affect everyone.  Even a restaurant tax can be avoided or mitigated by eating out less.  How about street parking permits?  How about bicycle registration fees to offset Greenway expenses?  Why not solicit voluntary donations? (After Tuesday, it sure seems like GF residents are ready to pony up.) Sell naming rights to public facilities?  Get creative, FFS.  Any Tom, Dick or Harry can slap on a sales tax.

I would even be in favor of a penny a post surcharge on siouxsports.com.  Where do I send that check for $12.98? 

So non Grand Forks citizens pay for services for Grand Forks citizens? 

What benefit will Grand Forks provide people to travel there?  They have the college, which is a state investment.  What will Grand Forks invest in to boost tourism?  

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

18 minutes ago, homer said:

So non Grand Forks citizens pay for services for Grand Forks citizens? 

What benefit will Grand Forks provide people to travel there?  They have the college, which is a state investment.  What will Grand Forks invest in to boost tourism?  

People are going to come here anyway.  Can you name a single person who made a go/no go decision based on room/occupancy taxes or rental car fees?

[homer]

12 minutes ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

People are going to come here anyway.  Can you name a single person who made a go/no go decision based on room/occupancy taxes or rental car fees?

But that only funds so much.  Without investing in more tourism activities, what are they coming for   Retail is changing dramatically and won’t always be the draw it is today   

Im not buying the rental car business in Grand Forks being a huge money generator.  

[Oxbow6]

15 minutes ago, homer said:

But that only funds so much.  Without investing in more tourism activities, what are they coming for   Retail is changing dramatically and won’t always be the draw it is today   

Im not buying the rental car business in Grand Forks being a huge money generator.  

Compared to a sales tax increase it is a pittance.

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

12 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

Compared to a sales tax increase it is a pittance.

It was but one suggestion, never posited as a dollar-for-dollar substitute. 

The sales tax strikes me as a lazy solution, and all I keep getting on here is blind defense of it. The takeaway is that there are only two camps and thinking outside the box is verboten. You're either a pro-tax supporter of the community or an anti-tax nutcase advocating for the town to die.

Individual voters have very little direct say in taxation.  Levies go up, home valuations go up, fees go up. Nothing anybody can do.  When a sales tax goes to a vote, I'd like to think people would be a little more thoughtful.

The only real loser here is the library. It's now obvious that GF residents weren't worried about the money last time. Just the intended purpose.

[jdub27]

12 minutes ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

The sales tax strikes me as a lazy solution, and all I keep getting on here is blind defense of it. The takeaway is that there are only two camps and thinking outside the box is verboten. You're either a pro-tax supporter of the community or an anti-tax nutcase advocating for the town to die.

Individual voters have very little direct say in taxation.  Levies go up, home valuations go up, fees go up. Nothing anybody can do.  When a sales tax goes to a vote, I'd like to think people would be a little more thoughtful.

The only real loser here is the library. It's now obvious that GF residents weren't worried about the money last time. Just the intended purpos

I don't really buy your first comment since (in general) a lot of the same people who were adamantly against the first one were in support of the second one. The fact that the margin it passed by was so significantly different backs that up. However to claim the purpose was the only issue is disingenuous. The original tax increase was 50% higher, had a 50 yr sunset vs. 20 yrs and didn't have a specific purposes. Those behind the measures researched what was palatable to the public and then went to the voters with that. They learned their lesson the first time. Overall, seems like a logical solution in the end.

However, I would agree that the library issue played at least a small portion into the original measure being defeated, but from how bad that whole thing has been mismanaged by the library board, that shouldn't be a surprise. Voters have made it clear they aren't buying whatever vision the board is randomly selling that day of the week and saw the blank check as a way for them to get what keeps being rejected. They are the ones that are going to have to come up with some outside the box solutions to get what they want.