Coach Jones?

[CMSioux]

OK, guys – this is not a question meant to “pile on” the Fire Jones bandwagon, just a legitimate question to those who follow UND basketball closely:

 

Can you remember specific situations over the last few years where you are confident that coaching decisions won a game(s) for us?

 

 

 

 

 

,

I've never been a coach but I would ask that you share specific times when you are confident a coaching decision won a game - but guess what - whatever example you give can not specifically be credited to just coaching - the players still have to have the talent, savvy and hustle to make the plays - doesn't matter what decision the coach makes the players have to make the plays.  

[UND-FB-FAN]

I agree that Jones appears this way on the outside but I must say I believe it is because of his intensity he wears on his shoulders during and after a game. I have been around Jones quite a bit over the past several years and I've never met a person that has a love for basketball more than this man. His mind is always centered around basketball and you can see his intensity on the sidelines as he runs, jumps up and down the sidelines for the entire 40 minutes. He deserves a few more years with the recruits he has coming in to see what he can do with the upcoming talent. To be honest he was brought in under extreme difficult circumstances with the transition and brought in a young class that won 2 championships and a best ever placing in the Big Sky for a first year team and then a loss in the championship game with a very depleted roster. We may very well be able to find someone better but I believe he's done a good job with what he's been dealt. If this style of play and wins/losses continue at the current rate then I agree its time for a change but for now I think he needs a couple of years to see what he does with the talent that he has coming in.

The "wait and see" game can be a risky one in collegiate athletics, as we found out with UND football and Mussman. There's always a fine line between allowing another season and pulling the trigger, with the negative repercussions being long-term setbacks to the program.

[UND-FB-FAN]

I've never been a coach but I would ask that you share specific times when you are confident a coaching decision won a game - but guess what - whatever example you give can not specifically be credited to just coaching - the players still have to have the talent, savvy and hustle to make the plays - doesn't matter what decision the coach makes the players have to make the plays.

Players are always the most important component in any team sport; however, one must not forget that in collegiate athletics the head coach not only conducts in-game management, but also recruiting. If the players aren't performing, that still falls directly on the coach, because he is the talent evaluator and the one who recruited the players believing they could be winners.

[Irish]

I agree that Jones appears this way on the outside but I must say I believe it is because of his intensity he wears on his shoulders during and after a game.  I have been around Jones quite a bit over the past several years and I've never met a person that has a love for basketball more than this man.  His mind is always centered around basketball and you can see his intensity on the sidelines as he runs, jumps up and down the sidelines for the entire 40 minutes.  He deserves a few more years with the recruits he has coming in to see what he can do with the upcoming talent.  To be honest he was brought in under extreme difficult circumstances with the transition and brought in a young class that won 2 championships and a best ever placing in the Big Sky for a first year team and then a loss in the championship game with a very depleted roster.  We may very well be able to find someone better but I believe he's done a good job with what he's been dealt.  If this style of play and wins/losses continue at the current rate then I agree its time for a change but for now I think he needs a couple of years to see what he does with the talent that he has coming in.  

This is a well reasoned argument that makes its point without resorting to calling anyone a moron.  I respect this opinion, while I don't agree with all of it.  I don't know Coach Jones personally, so I will take your word about his personality.  I also agree with the point you made about coming in at a tough time in the transition.  However, there remains for me something frustrating about this program.  I admit to being an old fart who was around for the Gunther years (which may be idealized over time in my mind) but I think I came away feeling more satisfied after a Gunther loss than many of the Jones wins.  The undisciplined "balling" of his teams drives me nuts as did the "give me the ball so I can play 1 on 4" offense we saw sometimes last year.  That along with the lack of rebounding and boxing out makes for a frustrating experience.  I know he has some young talent and more on the way next year, but for crap's sake, can't we play with a little basketball sense and at least box out?  In my mind, another year like this one except with some more talent isn't the direction I hope we go in.  Look around at the age of the basketball crowds - almost all old guys.  When they get tired of this program and stop coming the program will be in real trouble.  

[UND92,96]

I give Jones credit for doing a pretty nice job of replacing the lost production of last year's senior class. But let's be honest about UND's 9th-place predicted finish--it was likely because the other coaches could not give UND the benefit of the doubt when it comes to players like Tyler, DeRouen and Shanks, whom most were probably at best vaguely aware of. Not to mention the massive improvement of Hooker. And who even knows if they were aware of Nash's sixth year when the voting was done. The point being, I don't believe UND's talent is only the 9th-best in the Big Sky. And if UND actually does finish 9th, while I don't necessarily believe that should mean Jones should be fired, neither should it mean that it was O.K. to finish that low merely because that's where the team happened to be picked pre-season.

[UND-FB-FAN]

I give Jones credit for doing a pretty nice job of replacing the lost production of last year's senior class. But let's be honest about UND's 9th-place predicted finish--it was likely because the other coaches could not give UND the benefit of the doubt when it comes to players like Tyler, DeRouen and Shanks, whom most were probably at best vaguely aware of. Not to mention the massive improvement of Hooker. And who even knows if they were aware of Nash's sixth year when the voting was done. The point being, I don't believe UND's talent is only the 9th-best in the Big Sky. And if UND actually does finish 9th, while I don't necessarily believe that should mean Jones should be fired, neither should it mean that it was O.K. to finish that low merely because that's where the team happened to be picked pre-season.

Preseason polls are deceiving. For example, UND went down to 9th in the polls because they lost so many seniors, so in what way are they going to go up in the poll? That would be to prove everyone wrong and win.

If UND wins this season and improves above 9th in the standings, then they would be voted higher in the preseason polls next season. If UND loses, then they stay low again next season. Using the polls to set a benchmark is very dangerous territory, because the only way you truly elevate in the polls is to first elevate play on the court. UND needs to be better than 9th every season, even if it is a so called "rebuilding year". I mean, what is UND rebuilding? They only went .500 last season.

[UND92,96]

The really frustrating thing about this season is that UND has had five opportunities at home to knock off a team ahead of them in the standings, and has failed each time. Losing at home to the top few teams is one thing, but the 5th, 7th and 8th place teams? That's not good in any season.

[MafiaMan]

"Hey, we were picked in a pre-season poll to finish 9th so anything above that is exceeding expectations. Finishing 9th is meeting them."

The new benchmark for success I guess.

[Oxbow6]

"Hey, we were picked in a pre-season poll to finish 9th so anything above that is exceeding expectations. Finishing 9th is meeting them."

The new benchmark for success I guess.

Bar meet ground.

[green_sioux]

NO NAME CALLING AND PERSONAL ATTACKS GOES FOR EVERYBODY, THANKS.

 

SIOUXSPORTS.COM MODERATING TEAM

How about outright dishonesty that a certain member of the moderating team made in post 1143 in this thread, quoted in bold.

 

"And I am sorry, but IMO there is something other than the weather and temperature that is keeping this program from excelling to a higher level. That and saying Jones is the Tom Izzo of the Big Sky, those were two statements that really had me rolling today!"

 

Where did Hoopster make the statement that Jones is the Tom Izzo of the Big Sky?  You said he stated that and that is not true. You know what he meant, and how it was meant and you chose to go into your know-it-all self appointed pseudo sportswriter mode and mock him.   But, only while lying to try and make your snarky point.   Pretty cheap, even for this board.

 

I understand that you and so many others think you know everything about coaching, playing, and administrating college basketball from all those long hours you've all spent coaching, playing and administrating basketball programs.  Right?   It would make as much sense for Brian Jones to get on this forum and expound about farming, explaining in great deal to you farmers on here about what you are doing wrong while farming.  He could have lots of keen insight and misperceptions and explain how farmers don't know what they're doing and how their attitude isn't right for farming.  He could carefully tell you, step by step, how bad you are at your job in an intelligent, thoughtful way, all without ever having actually worked on a farm.  He maybe has seen a farm, maybe knows a farmer, but he isn't a farmer.  That would be acceptable, right?  Thats where the bar is set on SSports.com.  

[ArtVandalay]

Imagine this conversation taking place in a room. Live. In person. Repeating the same things over and over and over. We would look at each other like we were nuts. Some of this may be some kind of weird therapy. At least for those that are real fans anyway. It's almost similar to Road Rage. A bizarre Fan Forum Rage (FFR).

Unless you have something different and compelling to say, give it a rest. Move it to the game thread during games maybe with some observations of the game. Many of us who rant in here, never post in game thread. That would be something new. Show you are a fan. Give yourself a little FFR cred if you will.

[UND1983]

Imagine this conversation taking place in a room. Live. In person. Repeating the same things over and over and over. We would look at each other like we were nuts. Some of this may be some kind of weird therapy. At least for those that are real fans anyway. It's almost similar to Road Rage. A bizarre Fan Forum Rage (FFR).

Unless you have something different and compelling to say, give it a rest. Move it to the game thread during games maybe with some observations of the game. Many of us who rant in here, never post in game thread. That would be something new. Show you are a fan. Give yourself a little FFR cred if you will.

 

That is a fair point and true.  My response would be this:  the same mediocre, stagnant results have been happening for nine years, much like the conversation in this thread.  Seems like they go hand in hand because nothing ever changes with the topic itself.

[Oxbow6]

I hope UND wins today.......can't even image the excuses for and enabling of Jones if they lose to MSU.

[UND-FB-FAN]

How about outright dishonesty that a certain member of the moderating team made in post 1143 in this thread, quoted in bold.

"And I am sorry, but IMO there is something other than the weather and temperature that is keeping this program from excelling to a higher level. That and saying Jones is the Tom Izzo of the Big Sky, those were two statements that really had me rolling today!"

Where did Hoopster make the statement that Jones is the Tom Izzo of the Big Sky? You said he stated that and that is not true. You know what he meant, and how it was meant and you chose to go into your know-it-all self appointed pseudo sportswriter mode and mock him. But, only while lying to try and make your snarky point. Pretty cheap, even for this board.

I understand that you and so many others think you know everything about coaching, playing, and administrating college basketball from all those long hours you've all spent coaching, playing and administrating basketball programs. Right? It would make as much sense for Brian Jones to get on this forum and expound about farming, explaining in great deal to you farmers on here about what you are doing wrong while farming. He could have lots of keen insight and misperceptions and explain how farmers don't know what they're doing and how their attitude isn't right for farming. He could carefully tell you, step by step, how bad you are at your job in an intelligent, thoughtful way, all without ever having actually worked on a farm. He maybe has seen a farm, maybe knows a farmer, but he isn't a farmer. That would be acceptable, right? Thats where the bar is set on SSports.com.

Difference between farming and coaching is that it doesn't matter what others think of your farming operation, because you still get the opportunity to go about your business despite surrounding support. In coaching, if your product is so bad that no one attends games, it does affect your position and job security. Fan attendance pays the bills, although that is not so much the case with UND basketball and more the case with UND hockey and football. Nevertheless, as the coach of UND's basketball team, you need to earn support from not only the athletic department, but also the people putting their butts in the seats on gameday.

[bincitysioux]

How about outright dishonesty that a certain member of the moderating team made in post 1143 in this thread, quoted in bold.

"And I am sorry, but IMO there is something other than the weather and temperature that is keeping this program from excelling to a higher level. That and saying Jones is the Tom Izzo of the Big Sky, those were two statements that really had me rolling today!"

Where did Hoopster make the statement that Jones is the Tom Izzo of the Big Sky? You said he stated that and that is not true. You know what he meant, and how it was meant and you chose to go into your know-it-all self appointed pseudo sportswriter mode and mock him. But, only while lying to try and make your snarky point. Pretty cheap, even for this board.

I understand that you and so many others think you know everything about coaching, playing, and administrating college basketball from all those long hours you've all spent coaching, playing and administrating basketball programs. Right? It would make as much sense for Brian Jones to get on this forum and expound about farming, explaining in great deal to you farmers on here about what you are doing wrong while farming. He could have lots of keen insight and misperceptions and explain how farmers don't know what they're doing and how their attitude isn't right for farming. He could carefully tell you, step by step, how bad you are at your job in an intelligent, thoughtful way, all without ever having actually worked on a farm. He maybe has seen a farm, maybe knows a farmer, but he isn't a farmer. That would be acceptable, right? Thats where the bar is set on SSports.com.

I implied the comment made me laugh. I did not call him or his opinion moronic or unintelligent.

And I will stand by own opinion that the temperature isn't what has thus team in 9th place and that Jones is no Tom Izzo.

See how I did that? Made my opinion known without directly insulting or demeaning anyone.

Being a moderator doesn't require me to give up the right to have an opinion.

[Siouxphan27]

OK, guys – this is not a question meant to “pile on” the Fire Jones bandwagon, just a legitimate question to those who follow UND basketball closely:

 

Can you remember specific situations over the last few years where you are confident that coaching decisions won a game(s) for us?

 

 

 

 

 

,

No.   But I can recall several times, admiring the adjustments made at halftime by the other team, while we either give up a lead, or fall further behind.  

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing time and time again, expecting different results.   We are 9 years into this experiment and there are still people saying let's wait and see what he can mold this next crop of players into.   Last year's squad was the perfect example of his coaching abilities.   A team with tons of experience and the most talent across the board I have ever seen at UND.   The results?   Did not beat a single team we weren't expected to beat, failed to show up for some games, played down to the level of our competition, and another ho hum .500 record.     

 

Maybe my opinion is biased by the style of basketball which Jones preaches, which I consider almost unwatchable.   Possession of the basketball is not considered important, boxing out is optional, and playground style offense and defense take preference over any sort of structure and teamwork. 

 

This current group plays hard.  Harder than last year's team.   They've got talent.  But they are not talented enough to play this rag tag style of basketball and win.    

[GDPritch]

It's interesting that we have two senior big men in both Calcaterra and Salmonson who I believe have not played a minute in the last 3 - 4 games minimum.  I thought Jones' plan, like many low/mid majors (like last year's team), was to build towards a senior laden team every few years so they're your starters or key contributors off the bench?  Yes, big men Shanks and Cashman are your future but they're just freshmen.  Poor judge in recruiting (I realize not everybody develops as hoped despite potential) if two senior big men can't even contribute off the bench or is Jones' simply building for the future and throwing out this season?     

[darell1976]

Bump!!!

[sioux24/7]

It's interesting that we have two senior big men in both Calcaterra and Salmonson who I believe have not played a minute in the last 3 - 4 games minimum.  I thought Jones' plan, like many low/mid majors (like last year's team), was to build towards a senior laden team every few years so they're your starters or key contributors off the bench?  Yes, big men Shanks and Cashman are your future but they're just freshmen.  Poor judge in recruiting (I realize not everybody develops as hoped despite potential) if two senior big men can't even contribute off the bench or is Jones' simply building for the future and throwing out this season?     

 

You play your best players. Cashman and Shanks are much better that Calc or Salmonson.

[Kab]

Maybe use the best coaches then too

[jdub27]

Bump!!!

The joy you get out of that is sad.

Please explain where coaching was the downfall in this game. Sure didn't look like it in person.

[jdub27]

You play your best players. Cashman and Shanks are much better that Calc or Salmonson.

Yep.

[sioux24/7]

The joy you get out of that is sad.

Please explain where coaching was the downfall in this game. Sure didn't look like it in person.

 

I disagree. Montana State had about 10 possessions, maybe a little less, where they would just ISO right away and scored on most of them. It took forever for Jones to finally call a timeout and make an adjustment.

[CMSioux]

Come on it was Coach's fault we missed 50% of our free throws, coaches fault we were out of position on defense.

[jdub27]

I disagree. Montana State had about 10 possessions, maybe a little less, where they would just ISO right away and scored on most of them. It took forever for Jones to finally call a timeout and make an adjustment.

My guess is that was due to their three point shooting. That's how MSU has been successful this year. UND's goal was to prevent it. Guessing Shanks was out for the majority of that. Not sure what happened to him but he was less than 100%.