President Kennedy Message on Athletics

[homer]

57 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

I thought something similar until I started looking into the numbers. Volleyball is the first one I thought of. Back of the napkin example (and again there are a lot more factors than this): Men's hockey is likely in the top 10% of funding, if not higher. That would mean VB would need to be top 30 in spending in D-1. That would require UND to spend around $1.6 million+ on volleyball, which means UND would need to add almost $1 million to its volleyball budget. The only issue is that Volleyball is 12 scholarships and MIH is 18, so you still need to find another (smaller) sport to fund at a higher level to get the proportionality down.

If you wanted to do basketball, the WBB budget would likely need to be around $3.8 million, which is an increase of over $2.5 million (and you still might be short a couple scholarships, but maybe close enough at 18 and 15).

This makes it clear that it is definitely possible to eliminate women's hockey, but it probably doesn't save the amount of money that everyone (myself included) thinks/hopes it would in the grand scheme of things. And again, this is all separate from the fact that WIH needs to a)have a budget accurately reflects what they are getting and b)looking at taking a little bit of haircut once the accurate numbers are figured.

And this is where Title IX is flawed.  I would love to see what UND could do adding $400,000 to each the WBB and WVB budgets.  If my math is right, adding to those two sports, UND could feed 6 more athletes prime rib.  We could afford to add to women's track and field and soccer scholorships.  All this while getting rid of women's hockey.

I believe what you are saying in theory but when you look around college athletics and what schools are spending on coaches salaries, special trips and locker rooms for football and/or MBB (depending on the school), I have a hard time believing the NCAA could ever enforce this at an institution. 

 

[UNDvince97-01]

5 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

I'm stating nothing as fact and made no such statement. I'm saying, based on jdub's posts on tiering discussion, it's pretty easy to use WIH to balance out MIH. Why? It'd be more expensive to "tier" in some other women's sports at UND. 

I just asked the question so I understood your intent based on your history on the topic here.  Thanks for clarifying.

It would be "more expensive to tier" in another sport long term?

Help me out as I cannot think of another womens sport more expensive than womens hockey.

[Vegas_Sioux]

1 hour ago, fightingsioux4life said:

What about Division I Men's Hockey schools who don't sponsor Women's Hockey? Why aren't they in Title IX purgatory?

Women's scull and crew 

[UND-1]

Just now, The Sicatoka said:

Got their books? I see they have gymnastics and rowing. I'm guessing it's not hard to fund top tier in those to balance football. 

Are you serious?  They can compare football to rowing and that satisfies Title IX?

[mksioux]

Just now, The Sicatoka said:

Got their books? I see they have gymnastics and rowing. I'm guessing it's not hard to fund top tier in those to balance football. 

Why can't UND start a womens sport that is considerably less expensive than hockey and then fund that top 10% in the country?  Wouldn't that satisfy this "tiering" problem?

[UNDBIZ]

1 minute ago, UND-1 said:

OK.  How does Alabama get around it?

I agree with you and think it's ridiculous.  

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

1 minute ago, mksioux said:

Why can't UND start a womens sport that is considerably less expensive than hockey and then fund that top 10% in the country?  Wouldn't that satisfy this "tiering" problem?

We could have a really badass curling team.

[The Sicatoka]

1 minute ago, homer said:

And this is where Title IX is flawed. ... 

I have a hard time believing the NCAA could ever enforce this at an institution. 

Title IX is US Federal law. If you don't like it, call Cramer, or Hoeven, or Heitkamp.

The NCAA? No comment, but they've been known to enforce some really "interesting" stuff ... 

[Oxbow6]

Get a women's rowing team, which would be one of what...20 of them in the country?? Top tier and let them row up and down the Red. Dump women's hockey. Problem solved.

........and I'll take a little cream in my coffee too please.

[Vegas_Sioux]

4 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Got their books? I see they have gymnastics and rowing. I'm guessing it's not hard to fund top tier in those to balance football. 

Assume Bama is top 10% in FB spending. What's it take to be top 10% in spending on gymnastics or rowing? (Probably a rounding error in the FB budget.) 

I just looked their women's rowing all events roster is about as long as the football roster. 

[homer]

Also, if UND wanted to prove a point and raise awareness to what they are doing is correct and other schools is wrong, laying out the explanation for tiers should have been done at the first meeting and again at the second meeting and possibly released a press release for the public.  Than you go from being a cluster to full transparency to the general public. 

[The Sicatoka]

Just now, Oxbow6 said:

Get a women's rowing team, which would be one of what...20 of them in the country?? Top tier and let them row up and down the Red. Dump women's hockey. Problem solved.

Honestly, that is the approach many schools have taken. 

[SWSiouxMN]

Who was the moron who gave Faison that 5 year extension... oh wait, I remember now and he did it out the door too.

I think when this gets all said and done in November, I think a few new conversations need to be had within the halls of Twamley and a few heads need to roll in the Hyslop. 

 

[The Sicatoka]

1 minute ago, Vegas_Sioux said:

I just looked their women's rowing all events roster is about as long as the football roster. 

< ding ding ding > 

Yup. Big roster (to balance athlete totals of FB) and fund it to the top 10% of women's rowing (to match top 10% of FB funding). 

[The Sicatoka]

2 minutes ago, homer said:

Also, if UND wanted to prove a point and raise awareness to what they are doing is correct and other schools is wrong, laying out the explanation for tiers should have been done at the first meeting and again at the second meeting and possibly released a press release for the public.  Than you go from being a cluster to full transparency to the general public. 

Much agreement. Transparency is always best. 

[Oxbow6]

Donald Trump just texted me..........he suggested a Pole Dancing Team. Satisfies top tier requirement...................could have a "huge" roster.

 

"Make UND great again"!

[The Sicatoka]

2 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

Donald Trump just texted me..........he suggested a Pole Dancing Team. Satisfies top tier requirement...................could have a "huge" roster.

 

"Make UND great again"!

[mksioux]

7 minutes ago, homer said:

Also, if UND wanted to prove a point and raise awareness to what they are doing is correct and other schools is wrong, laying out the explanation for tiers should have been done at the first meeting and again at the second meeting and possibly released a press release for the public.  Than you go from being a cluster to full transparency to the general public. 

Exactly.  If you're going to have a public spectacle, at least have it address the elephant in the room in a transparent way.  

[Vegas_Sioux]

If you add women's rowing just think of the home coulee advantage with an event in January. 

[cowboys5xsbs]

How much would it really take to get into the top 10% in say tennis or swimming and diving?  

[UNDBIZ]

2 hours ago, homer said:

I believe what you are saying in theory but when you look around college athletics and what schools are spending on coaches salaries, special trips and locker rooms for football and/or MBB (depending on the school), I have a hard time believing the NCAA could ever enforce this at an institution. 

Unfortunately it would be the courts enforcing it after UND gets sued.  From the Facebook post when UND announced the baseball and men's golf cuts in April:

Quote

Jen Rice It's truly an effort to comply with Title IX. In 1997 a fellow UND student and I created/started the women's hockey team. After many months of fighting to establish the team a Title IX review was completed. UND was not in compliance with at least 2 of the 3 tenets, and on the cusp of violating the 3rd. We had the opportunity to take the issue to court, but elected to allow UND to make corrections in 1 year. Thus, the wrestling program was cut. And, support for the women's hockey team had to commence. Sadly, UND could face losing all federal funding if not in compliance. Finally, nearly 20 years later, UND is continuing to comply with Title IX - an education amendment established almost 44 years ago.

Based on what I can find, Jen Rice went to UND, complained and threatened to sue for no D1 WIH, then transferred to Concordia.  She seems very proud of herself for getting the wrestling team cut.  She can add the baseball and, eventually, men's golf skins to her wall too.

[Siouxphan27]

59 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

I know it's not calf roping...................................................................

I think the women rope goats. 

[CMSB95]

I am very new to UND and this forum and have found this all to be unsettling at best.  However, when you research the 3 components of Title IX, it is basically never says anywhere, that I can find, there has to be equal money spent.  In fact, component 3 of Title IX says, (in a nutshell) budgets for male and female sports need not be identical, but it is important to document that the needs of girls sports teams are being met.  Seems rather gray area to me.  It also states items such as uniforms, coaching quality, practice and game schedules, facility access, facility quality, equipment quality and quantity, competent officials and a similar number of sport offerings and competitive levels are included in component 3.

Component 2, which addresses financial assistance, simply says is must be strictly proportional.

Component 1, which addresses effective accommodation of interests, simply says out of the 3 prongs, only one has to be met.  I think here is where it becomes cloudy, with part b and c of the prong.  Prong A says female sports participation should be proportional to female enrollment in the school.  Prong B says the school shows a recent history of expanding sport offerings for women, either new sports or competitive levels for girls within the past 3-5 years.  Prong C says the interests and abilities of female athletes have been fully and effectively accommodated, as documented by regularly administered surveys of females for emerging interests in sports.

President Kennedy said he wanted to make sure the sports that were kept represented UND, and because MIH is so amazing, perhaps he feels the enthusiasm for WIH would carry over?  Maybe it's because there are not as many WIH teams and UND gets recognition there?  Maybe he feels there are Olympic opportunities out there?  Clearly there seems to be many questions without many good answers.

I do have a question to ask regarding the tennis teams.  So, tennis is a core requirement for Big Sky.  With that being said, having the tennis teams at these meetings trying to explain why they shouldn't be cut, leads me to the question of A) is a Summit move taking more shape than we thought because it's not required for Summit or B) are they planning on asking Big Sky permission to cut a core sport?  Because, with a Summit move, everything is on the chopping block except men's and women's basketball, which is their only requirement.  So after that, you can pretty much pick and choose the sports you wish to keep.

 

 

 

[UNDvince97-01]

45 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

Get a women's rowing team, which would be one of what...20 of them in the country?? Top tier and let them row up and down the Red. Dump women's hockey. Problem solved.

........and I'll take a little cream in my coffee too please.

Here's where the biggest frustration lies...

Put any of us dummies discussing this thread in a room together for a week and we can resolve it......EASILY....for the betterment of the UND Athletics Department for the long-term by eliminating womens hockey and reallocating resources etc...

We can all agree on that.

But UND sits there and hides behind Title IX publicly.  Essentially we are being lied to.

It's an absolute failure in vision and leadership yet again.

[SWSiouxMN]

Does anybody know if the Big Sky conference have their presidents meeting yet or is that later in the month?