2014 FCS Playoffs

[CMSioux]

So if you are looking for a comparison here, this st cloud game was like the Iowa State game for the Bison.  They estimated that there were 3 thousand Bison fans in Iowa.  I have seen 1-2 thousand NDSU fans travel down to SD for games.  Of coarse there are going to be large numbers of NDSU fans traveling for a National championship game.  I was at the xcel a few years back and the stadium was half UND fans, which for NCAA hockey tourney is tough to do because of how you aquire tickets with priority seating.  So you saying hockey is maxed out, is wrong. It is a niche sport and not everyone gets into it, but it is the golden goose for UND and will always be.

My thoughts exactly - it's a bison road apple to oranges comparison - they only pick the ones that make them look good. Regular season road hockey game in the winter (of which there are about 20) compared to a national championship game. Still have to be impressed with the numbers they get to make the trip to Texas as it is an investment - but dang why can't they just be happy in their own little bison-swill - why do they have to come here with their measuring stick?  Comparison is the thief of happiness.  

[UND-FB-FAN]

So if you are looking for a comparison here, this st cloud game was like the Iowa State game for the Bison. They estimated that there were 3 thousand Bison fans in Iowa. I have seen 1-2 thousand NDSU fans travel down to SD for games. Of coarse there are going to be large numbers of NDSU fans traveling for a National championship game. I was at the xcel a few years back and the stadium was half UND fans, which for NCAA hockey tourney is tough to do because of how you aquire tickets with priority seating. So you saying hockey is maxed out, is wrong. It is a niche sport and not everyone gets into it, but it is the golden goose for UND and will always be.

Hockey wasn't the "golden goose" at UND just 20 years ago. Perhaps the REA will keep hockey as the top sport form here on out, but it will always keep UND at a DII status in football and basketball moving forward. For St.Cloud and Duluth that doesn't matter because they are DII. For Omaha and Denver it doesn't matter because they don't have football. For Wisconsin and Minnesota it doesn't matter because they have the budget and big time enrollment. UND is in a unique situation, and yes, it's hockey program is maxed out in terms of following. Football and basketball are the big crowd producers; always have been and always will be. UND needs to explore ways to expand those sports.

[UND-FB-FAN]

Agree but for some to even suggest that hockey in any way, shape or form is the reason for the lack of success in FB and MBB is ridiculous and flatout ignorant.

Hockey is largely a psychological hindrance, at least for the current athletic department staff. UND should be able to focus on improving football and basketball along with hockey, but it seems most in the UND athletic department are content right now just because hockey is okay and everything else (football and M basketball) is not. Faison and some of his employees (UND SID) are so dead set on hockey that the others suffer; it's a matter of the truth. One can't look at the mediocre nature of UND's football and M basketball track record since moving DI and say otherwise.

[UND-FB-FAN]

I don't think it needs to take away from hockey. I think it comes to the attitude of leadership. The ac did a great job of marketing to the public that this was a new era...a step up. And it worked! While we belittled Valpo, their marketing created true believers. Meanwhile Kuppy and RT were downplaying that a move to FCS was even a higher level of ball to start with.

When that's where leadership was coming from it isn't hard to understand the opportunity was squandered.

Agree.

If UND's athletic department doesn't want football and men's basketball to succeed and compete for championships, they won't. It all starts at the top. Faison is so content, and dare I say it, lazy, that the expectations for football and basketball are very convoluted.

[Shawn-O]

Hockey wasn't the "golden goose" at UND just 20 years ago. Perhaps the REA will keep hockey as the top sport form here on out, but it will always keep UND at a DII status in football and basketball moving forward. For St.Cloud and Duluth that doesn't matter because they are DII. For Omaha and Denver it doesn't matter because they don't have football. For Wisconsin and Minnesota it doesn't matter because they have the budget and big time enrollment. UND is in a unique situation, and yes, it's hockey program is maxed out in terms of following. Football and basketball are the big crowd producers; always have been and always will be. UND needs to explore ways to expand those sports.

 

University of New Hampshire is a similar situation where they seem to have success in both, by and large.  They are somewhat down in hockey this year but they always seem to be in the hunt in both sports.  So it's doable.   

[The Sicatoka]

In a word: Wisconsin. 

 

They've had solid football, basketball, hockey, ... and women's hockey programs at the same time. 

 

Now I'm not saying UND can be at the Wisconsin level in all those, but Wisconsin can be a template for how to be successful in many areas at once. 

[southpaw]

I would not be surprised if a lot of our hockey players have little if any attachment to UND. How can they when most only spend 1 or 2 years here and very few of them graduate?

I'm curious who was the last UND hockey player to spend just one year with the team. I mean, if MOST players only spend one or two years, there must be dozens of examples from just the past decade. Certainly, you couldn't be completely exaggerating about this, which makes me assume you're doing the same on your other posts which makes me care a while lot less about your little tirade.

[petey23]

Actually it would appear NDSU is doing just fine without UND hockey fans attending their games.  I'd much rather have the statewide support that they have over what UND has for hockey.  It's not even comparable.  I'd also rather have the 4,000 and growing on-campus freshmen enrollment they have each year versus the declining on-campus enrollment that UND is facing.

I grew up in Bismarck and have a couple friends that are big NDSU fans and they were on Facebook on Saturday and texting me how if the fact that Carson Wentz and Esley Thornton, 2 Bismarck kids make the 2 biggest plays in leading NDSU to their 4th straight championship can't help NDSU at least be on equal footing with UND in Bismarck that nothing probably could.

[UND-FB-FAN]

University of New Hampshire is a similar situation where they seem to have success in both, by and large. They are somewhat down in hockey this year but they always seem to be in the hunt in both sports. So it's doable.

University of New Hampshire is a very good model in comparison to UND. UNH had the #1 in the FCS playoffs this season. I would like to think UND could get to that FCS football level in the near future; that is my hope.

[ringneck28]

I would not be surprised if a lot of our hockey players have little if any attachment to UND.  How can they when most only spend 1 or 2 years here and very few of them graduate?     

 

On that note,  I would not be surprised if the NHL guys donate next to nothing to the university.  Professional athletes (not just hockey) are notoriously bad with their money and generally have next to nothing left shortly after their playing days.  This is especially true if you leave college without a degree or any marketable skills outside of a hockey rink or playing field.

 

I would not be surprised if a lot of our hockey players have little if any attachment to UND.  How can they when most only spend 1 or 2 years here and very few of them graduate?     

On that note,  I would not be surprised if the NHL guys donate next to nothing to the university.  Professional athletes (not just hockey) are notoriously bad with their money and generally have next to nothing left shortly after their playing days.  This is especially true if you leave college without a degree or any marketable skills outside of a hockey rink or playing field.

This post is off point at the least.  If you look at at the REA in and of itself, I believe Ralph played hockey there.  Green and Toews brings back the cup after they wins it.  Toews is one of those players who stayed 2 years I believe.  This team wouldn't get the recruits it does if it didn't have the tradition it does.  Those former players are sending their sons to play for UND.  You have players throughout the NHL that talk about how they wish they could bottle what they had at Grand Forks and take it with them. A

 Please don't rip down Hockey to try and prove a point, because there is no better sporting program than another.  Phil Jackson talks about his days at UND, Jim Kleinsauser about his, I could go on and on.  Yes it is sad to see the other programs suffering right now, but they are up and coming.  Basketball made the big dance last year and football is on good hands with its current coach.  

[dlsiouxfan]

Hockey is much more than a psychological hindrance.  There are multiple times over the past decade where the success of the other sports was compromised in order to further the hockey programs interests.  Here is just a  short list off the top of my head of both big and small items over the last decade.

 

1. Shortly after the Ralph's construction, Ralph throws a temper tantrum after finding out that the state of the art weight facility in REA was used for a football workout. Ralph pisses and moans and UND football never again sets foot in the REA weight room. UND football continues to work out in a facility at Memorial Stadium that is sub-par in comparison to every other regional program and will continue to do so until Phase 2 of the the new IPT is completed. 

 

2. UND turns over all marketing for the entire athletic department to REA which leads to a questionable allocation of advertising dollars such as a full scale ad campaign for the world junior's tournament in 2004 being rolled out a few weeks before UND football begins the FB season in a year where UND Football is coming off a trip to the Division II National Football  Championship.  Advertising for UND football and the other sports can best be described as below average to non-existent ever since REA assumed control. 

 

3. In order to finance scholarships and shore up losses incurred by the start-up of women's hockey, Buning cut the recruiting and travel budgets for men's and women's basketball and football.  This was when football and WBB were still financially viable and supporting their own costs.  We cut funding for a successful program that was only a few years removed from a national football championship to finance women's hockey!  Women's hockey was started in the first place because REA was hired to do a study on which sport on campus had the greatest potential for future growth and came back with women's hockey, which should have been met with laughter by Thomas and Kupchella if they would have had even a shred of objectivity.

 

4.  Kupchella sits on his hands for four years following NDSU's decision to move to Division II in part because of the concerns that a move to Division I in every sport would have on the hockey program.  Finally caves and agrees to move to Division I after a near mutiny of the football alumni who had watched their contributions continue to be allocated to shore up general fund deficits created by women's hockey and other poor spending decisions made by the REA. 

 

5. When SIU tendered an offer to Dale Lennon (the most successful FB coach in UND history), UND refused to match the terms of the contract because it would have made him the highest paid coach in the school and upset the salary hierarchy as he would have made more than Hakstol.  I have no doubt that if Schweigert can engineer a turnaround of the football program and another team within our division comes calling, that Faison and Kelly would make the same decision.  

 

6.  When Big Sky affiliation was in jeopardy due to the Sioux nickname controversy and the idiotic workings of the ND legislature, Hakstol goes rogue and comes up out urging hockey fans to contact their representatives to encourage passage of the nickname law.  The law passes and negatively impacts every other  sport on campus for 18 months until the law is finally repealed.  Hakstol, who should have been terminated in my opinion, receives next to nothing in discipline for his actions.  Most of the posters on this board to this day will defend his actions to this day even though it nearly derailed UND's entire Division I move. 

 

I'm sure there are many more instances that i"m forgetting or do not know about, but all in all it's decisions like the above that have gotten us to today.  I've seen nothing that indicates that the thinking within the athletic department or UND's administration has changed one bit.  Until we acknowledge that UND needs to change it's entire thinking in terms of the athletic department, the other sports will continue to struggle to have sustained long-term success.

[tjamz]

I am sure the FCS teams thought that in 2009 with 3-8 NDSU in the cellar.

One losing season since moving up... yup, perennial cellar dweller.

[geaux_sioux]

Hockey is much more than a psychological hindrance. There are multiple times over the past decade where the success of the other sports was compromised in order to further the hockey programs interests. Here is just a short list off the top of my head of both big and small items over the last decade.

1. Shortly after the Ralph's construction, Ralph throws a temper tantrum after finding out that the state of the art weight facility in REA was used for a football workout. Ralph pisses and moans and UND football never again sets foot in the REA weight room. UND football continues to work out in a facility at Memorial Stadium that is sub-par in comparison to every other regional program and will continue to do so until Phase 2 of the the new IPT is completed.

2. UND turns over all marketing for the entire athletic department to REA which leads to a questionable allocation of advertising dollars such as a full scale ad campaign for the world junior's tournament in 2004 being rolled out a few weeks before UND football begins the FB season in a year where UND Football is coming off a trip to the Division II National Football Championship. Advertising for UND football and the other sports can best be described as below average to non-existent ever since REA assumed control.

3. In order to finance scholarships and shore up losses incurred by the start-up of women's hockey, Buning cut the recruiting and travel budgets for men's and women's basketball and football. This was when football and WBB were still financially viable and supporting their own costs. We cut funding for a successful program that was only a few years removed from a national football championship to finance women's hockey! Women's hockey was started in the first place because REA was hired to do a study on which sport on campus had the greatest potential for future growth and came back with women's hockey, which should have been met with laughter by Thomas and Kupchella if they would have had even a shred of objectivity.

4. Kupchella sits on his hands for four years following NDSU's decision to move to Division II in part because of the concerns that a move to Division I in every sport would have on the hockey program. Finally caves and agrees to move to Division I after a near mutiny of the football alumni who had watched their contributions continue to be allocated to shore up general fund deficits created by women's hockey and other poor spending decisions made by the REA.

5. When SIU tendered an offer to Dale Lennon (the most successful FB coach in UND history), UND refused to match the terms of the contract because it would have made him the highest paid coach in the school and upset the salary hierarchy as he would have made more than Hakstol. I have no doubt that if Schweigert can engineer a turnaround of the football program and another team within our division comes calling, that Faison and Kelly would make the same decision.

6. When Big Sky affiliation was in jeopardy due to the Sioux nickname controversy and the idiotic workings of the ND legislature, Hakstol goes rogue and comes up out urging hockey fans to contact their representatives to encourage passage of the nickname law. The law passes and negatively impacts every other sport on campus for 18 months until the law is finally repealed. Hakstol, who should have been terminated in my opinion, receives next to nothing in discipline for his actions. Most of the posters on this board to this day will defend his actions to this day even though it nearly derailed UND's entire Division I move.

I'm sure there are many more instances that i"m forgetting or do not know about, but all in all it's decisions like the above that have gotten us to today. I've seen nothing that indicates that the thinking within the athletic department or UND's administration has changed one bit. Until we acknowledge that UND needs to change it's entire thinking in terms of the athletic department, the other sports will continue to struggle to have sustained long-term success.

And boom goes the dynamite. Pretty spot on here. The "leadership" at UND has been pretty questionable. I disagree about the Hak thing though. I watched that almost dissolve the football program. It was closer to happening than people think. The Big Sky was ready to block our asses if we had held on to the nickname. Football would have been liquidated as a result.

I've always been apposed to having women's hockey at UND. It makes no money and costs a ton.

[The Sicatoka]

I've always been apposed to having women's hockey at UND. It makes no money and costs a ton.

 

I don't disagree that women's hockey is pure "red ink", but, given Title IX compliance was a hidden driver behind womens hockey, what's your solution to keep UND in compliance with the Federal law called Title IX? 

[Oxbow6]

2012..........the UND athletic department had roughly $19.5M in total revenue.  Like NDSU, a good portion of the total revenue (roughly 45%) of the athletic department is dollars directly from the university itself and student fees, but of the remaining roughly $11M in revenue which sport at UND contributed the biggest chunck of change revenue wise? 

 

To quote gfhockey...."simple question"?

[geaux_sioux]

I don't disagree that women's hockey is pure "red ink", but, given Title IX compliance was a hidden driver behind womens hockey, what's your solution to keep UND in compliance with the Federal law called Title IX?

Drop baseball. UND doesn't give two shits about that sport anymore.

[geaux_sioux]

2012..........the UND athletic department had roughly $19.5M in total revenue. Like NDSU, a good portion of the total revenue (roughly 45%) of the athletic department is dollars directly from the university itself and student fees, but of the remaining roughly $11M in revenue which sport at UND contributed the biggest chunck of change revenue wise?

To quote gfhockey...."simple question"?

How much did women's hockey suck from that? The best option is to have good bball, easy, and have good football along with hockey.

[Oxbow6]

How much did women's hockey suck from that? The best option is to have good bball, easy, and have good football along with hockey.

 

 

No argument with women's hockey but like Sic said Title IX dictates some of these "red ink" sports of which women's hockey is a big suck hole.  Problem is the argument "hockey is to blame for all other sports ills"?

 

 

MBB hasn't been relevant since when?   Football will get there IMO under Bubba.

[UND-FB-FAN]

Hockey is much more than a psychological hindrance. There are multiple times over the past decade where the success of the other sports was compromised in order to further the hockey programs interests. Here is just a short list off the top of my head of both big and small items over the last decade.

1. Shortly after the Ralph's construction, Ralph throws a temper tantrum after finding out that the state of the art weight facility in REA was used for a football workout. Ralph pisses and moans and UND football never again sets foot in the REA weight room. UND football continues to work out in a facility at Memorial Stadium that is sub-par in comparison to every other regional program and will continue to do so until Phase 2 of the the new IPT is completed.

2. UND turns over all marketing for the entire athletic department to REA which leads to a questionable allocation of advertising dollars such as a full scale ad campaign for the world junior's tournament in 2004 being rolled out a few weeks before UND football begins the FB season in a year where UND Football is coming off a trip to the Division II National Football Championship. Advertising for UND football and the other sports can best be described as below average to non-existent ever since REA assumed control.

3. In order to finance scholarships and shore up losses incurred by the start-up of women's hockey, Buning cut the recruiting and travel budgets for men's and women's basketball and football. This was when football and WBB were still financially viable and supporting their own costs. We cut funding for a successful program that was only a few years removed from a national football championship to finance women's hockey! Women's hockey was started in the first place because REA was hired to do a study on which sport on campus had the greatest potential for future growth and came back with women's hockey, which should have been met with laughter by Thomas and Kupchella if they would have had even a shred of objectivity.

4. Kupchella sits on his hands for four years following NDSU's decision to move to Division II in part because of the concerns that a move to Division I in every sport would have on the hockey program. Finally caves and agrees to move to Division I after a near mutiny of the football alumni who had watched their contributions continue to be allocated to shore up general fund deficits created by women's hockey and other poor spending decisions made by the REA.

5. When SIU tendered an offer to Dale Lennon (the most successful FB coach in UND history), UND refused to match the terms of the contract because it would have made him the highest paid coach in the school and upset the salary hierarchy as he would have made more than Hakstol. I have no doubt that if Schweigert can engineer a turnaround of the football program and another team within our division comes calling, that Faison and Kelly would make the same decision.

6. When Big Sky affiliation was in jeopardy due to the Sioux nickname controversy and the idiotic workings of the ND legislature, Hakstol goes rogue and comes up out urging hockey fans to contact their representatives to encourage passage of the nickname law. The law passes and negatively impacts every other sport on campus for 18 months until the law is finally repealed. Hakstol, who should have been terminated in my opinion, receives next to nothing in discipline for his actions. Most of the posters on this board to this day will defend his actions to this day even though it nearly derailed UND's entire Division I move.

I'm sure there are many more instances that i"m forgetting or do not know about, but all in all it's decisions like the above that have gotten us to today. I've seen nothing that indicates that the thinking within the athletic department or UND's administration has changed one bit. Until we acknowledge that UND needs to change it's entire thinking in terms of the athletic department, the other sports will continue to struggle to have sustained long-term success.

I was aware of a few of those points, but a few surprised me. All in all, it just comes back to UND's athletic department needing new leadership and direction. I agree that hockey does not need to be torn down completely, but football and basketball need to be better emphasized...like a lot. Also, your points about women's hockey are very logical; you would have persuaded me to cancel that program if I wasn't already in possession of that stance.

[The Sicatoka]

Drop baseball. UND doesn't give two shits about that sport anymore.

 

Here we agree. Wrong climate. Wrong facility. 

 

 

(This is where I normally go on a diversion about how lacrosse makes much more sense for UND: we have facilities in Alerus and the ITF; we could recruit Canada where the sport is huge, and the Twin Cities where the sport is growing; we'd probably get more (Canadian visitor) fans out for one game than we get for a season for baseball.) 

[geaux_sioux]

No argument with women's hockey but like Sic said Title IX dictates some of these "red ink" sports of which women's hockey is a big suck hole. Problem is the argument "hockey is to blame for all other sports ills"?

MBB hasn't been relevant since when? Football will get there IMO under Bubba.

It sure was great in the 70s.... Basketball is nice and cheap. Shoes and shorts and balls. Small roster on top of that. It's an easy sport to boost financially. Hockey and football on the other hand are not cheap. Cut women's hockey and baseball and get things to where they should be logically and UND will flourish. Chances of that happening.... Slim at this point.

[darell1976]

One losing season since moving up... yup, perennial cellar dweller.

6-5 in 08 and 3-8 in 09 sure didn't spell out NC right away even among Bison fans or else they wouldn't have created a Fire Bohl thread on Bisonswille.

[The Sicatoka]

tjamz: You do realize you are making the case that things can change ... and quickly. 

[gundy1124]

Drop baseball. UND doesn't give two shits about that sport anymore.

 

Well said......pretty pointless season.  I have never even dreamt of going to a baseball game in GF.

[darell1976]

tjamz: You do realize you are making the case that things can change ... and quickly.

Whoa!!! No it can't Bison will be a 5 peat, 6 peat, 9 peat by the end of the decade while UND will always be sub .500. Forget that history loves to come around and say "hi".