Discontinuing the UND Shuttle Service is a HUGE, UNFORGIVABLE MISTAKE

[Snake]

I am just referring to paying $20 to park in the ramp with the shuttle service as it was. I'm curious what some would be willing to pay because clearly they're not charging enough (assuming the demand is there) if they can't make it work financially.

How high would you be willing to go to have covered parking and a ride to the front door every game?

[MafiaMan]

I think it would be a pretty nice goodwill gesture on their part and won't be surprised if they end up doing it but that is a pretty bold statement. There are a lot of ways to get close to the door for those cold nights, but demanding the athletic department to subsidize something that less than 5% of fans use on a given night isn't something that I would consider a necessity.

Good points. Now let's work on authorizing the destruction of about 2,000 seats, put in some more suites, add another bar or two, and set up free limo service to and from the rink for anyone who donates $5,000 or more to Sioux athletics yearly. These small-peanuts folks who come to watch Sioux hockey are killing the program - we need to wine and dine more fatcats - MORE REVENUE MUST BE GENERATED!

[jdub27]

Good points. Now let's work on authorizing the destruction of about 2,000 seats, put in some more suites, add another bar or two, and set up free limo service to and from the rink for anyone who donates $5,000 or more to Sioux athletics yearly. These small-peanuts folks who come to watch Sioux hockey are killing the program - we need to wine and dine more fatcats - MORE REVENUE MUST BE GENERATED!

That is one way to open up more parking closer to the arena....

[Redneksioux]

Good points. Now let's work on authorizing the destruction of about 2,000 seats, put in some more suites, add another bar or two, and set up free limo service to and from the rink for anyone who donates $5,000 or more to Sioux athletics yearly. These small-peanuts folks who come to watch Sioux hockey are killing the program - we need to wine and dine more fatcats - MORE REVENUE MUST BE GENERATED!

Simple theory supply and demand. Demand may have hit an all time high but I wouldn't be shocked to see it dwindle some. No minny or wisco on the schedule, no gwoz, less exposure with current tv deal, new no re-entry smoking rule, less parking options, ticket prices as high as ever.....am I missing something?

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

There is enough parking within 4 or 5 blocks for any event held in the REA. As I posted earlier, almost all of that parking is within the same walking distance as the end of the Alerus Center parking lot is to the Alerus Center doors.

Try again, Sport. I ain't saying this is scientific, but on Google Maps, at zoom 1" = 500', from the Southeast entrance of Alerus to farthest point of paved lots south of arena, it is 3". From the main entrance at REA, that barely gets you to the southern end of the Med School building, not the south lot at the med school. The parking ramp and A-lot north of Memorial Stadium are equidistant at approximately 4.5" (as the crow files). The Memorial Stadium lot is at least 5.5". The only lots I can find within 3" of REA are the REA lots (all reserved for games), the lot at 6th & Princeton (student housing), and the Wellness Center.

I am mildly amused that until this year, UND used to promote ramp usage on game nights by flashing on the electronic sign along Columbia "NO PUBLIC PARKING AT REA". So the truth was apparently okay when it was used as a means of generating parking revenue (or, GASP, serving the public!), but I haven't seen that message up there this season, and I'm pretty sure nothing has changed in the way of parking at REA.

Can we please avoid the useless comparisons to other venues without some meaningful qualifications? Alerus = football = mostly afternoon games during summer and fall. Totally worthless. Besides, I know I'm going to pay $5 there and if I get there early enough, I'm literally a few feet away from the big-time donors. No such option at REA. The mall is open during the day, every day, is served by mass transit, and is ringed with free parking all within short walking distance (and I have NEVER seen those lots full).

Whatever the arrangement between the University and the state regarding the operation of the buses, those aren't "North Dakota Dept. of Transp." markings on the sides, and I'm fairly sure that President Kelley chose the "unlimited local miles" and "loss damage waiver" options when he checked them out. Ownership/possession of the buses is a FIXED COST. Anybody care to speculate how the daily (all-day) operation of free campuswide shuttles does from a strictly dollars and cents standpoint?

Every opinion on this thread should start with your hockey parking arrangements (i.e., whether you have a permit) and the number and ages of young and/or elderly people you take to games. If you're already parking on-site, or if you are one of the childless tough guys who don't seem to mind the brisk walk in -20 wind chills on a regular basis, I'll be happy to disregard you. Frankly, I have more respect for the anti-hockey red-stater railing against government-subsidized anything than for the coddled donor who frankly has no dog in this fight.

And as for the government subsidy BS, give me a break. EVERYTHING the University does is subsidized by the State. If you want to take the short bus to Utopiaville, where that isn't the case, send me a postcard and let me know how things are. If the University cannot negotiate a fair share of athletics/gate/concession revenue to cover modest shortfalls on things such as parking and shuttles, the problem is squarely on the University. Killing the shuttle to mask fiscal incompetence is shameful.

[82SiouxGuy]

Try again, Sport. I ain't saying this is scientific, but on Google Maps, at zoom 1" = 500', from the Southeast entrance of Alerus to farthest point of paved lots south of arena, it is 3". From the main entrance at REA, that barely gets you to the southern end of the Med School building, not the south lot at the med school. The parking ramp and A-lot north of Memorial Stadium are equidistant at approximately 4.5" (as the crow files). The Memorial Stadium lot is at least 5.5". The only lots I can find within 3" of REA are the REA lots (all reserved for games), the lot at 6th & Princeton (student housing), and the Wellness Center.

I am mildly amused that until this year, UND used to promote ramp usage on game nights by flashing on the electronic sign along Columbia "NO PUBLIC PARKING AT REA". So the truth was apparently okay when it was used as a means of generating parking revenue (or, GASP, serving the public!), but I haven't seen that message up there this season, and I'm pretty sure nothing has changed in the way of parking at REA.

Can we please avoid the useless comparisons to other venues without some meaningful qualifications? Alerus = football = mostly afternoon games during summer and fall. Totally worthless. Besides, I know I'm going to pay $5 there and if I get there early enough, I'm literally a few feet away from the big-time donors. No such option at REA. The mall is open during the day, every day, is served by mass transit, and is ringed with free parking all within short walking distance (and I have NEVER seen those lots full).

Whatever the arrangement between the University and the state regarding the operation of the buses, those aren't "North Dakota Dept. of Transp." markings on the sides, and I'm fairly sure that President Kelley chose the "unlimited local miles" and "loss damage waiver" options when he checked them out. Ownership/possession of the buses is a FIXED COST. Anybody care to speculate how the daily (all-day) operation of free campuswide shuttles does from a strictly dollars and cents standpoint?

Every opinion on this thread should start with your hockey parking arrangements (i.e., whether you have a permit) and the number and ages of young and/or elderly people you take to games. If you're already parking on-site, or if you are one of the childless tough guys who don't seem to mind the brisk walk in -20 wind chills on a regular basis, I'll be happy to disregard you. Frankly, I have more respect for the anti-hockey red-stater railing against government-subsidized anything than for the coddled donor who frankly has no dog in this fight.

And as for the government subsidy BS, give me a break. EVERYTHING the University does is subsidized by the State. If you want to take the short bus to Utopiaville, where that isn't the case, send me a postcard and let me know how things are. If the University cannot negotiate a fair share of athletics/gate/concession revenue to cover modest shortfalls on things such as parking and shuttles, the problem is squarely on the University. Killing the shuttle to mask fiscal incompetence is shameful.

You seem to have missed the large parking lot behind Tabula/Christus Rex. From the southern point of that lot to the student entrance (you don't have to use the main entrance at REA) is approximately the same distance as from the south end of the Alerus Center lot to the doors at the Alerus Center. That parking is $5. For some games they have opened the small parking lot behind the Nursing School. That was $5 and a block or so closer than Tabula. You missed the parking at Albatross, north of Albatross, and at Bank Forward. Parking at all of those spots are $10 and most if not all of that is a shorter walk than walking to the Medical School (not the lots south of the Med School). You missed the on street parking south of REA and east of REA. That's free. I didn't include the Med School parking lot within my parameters because it did not fit into the distance I was talking about. But even the southern most point of the Med School parking lot is within approximately 6 blocks (and in the post I said 4-5 blocks). Very few people still park at Memorial, and not a lot of people parked at the ramp (that's why it didn't work financially). I stand by my assertion that if you add up all of the spots I listed above plus the onsite parking at REA and shuttles run from various establishments you should be able to find enough parking within 4-5 blocks (and certainly within 6 blocks) for just about any event at REA. How's that Sport?

The Alerus Center is open for more than just football. They have large events held all winter and most of those are held in the evening, that's why I used that comparison. I also mentioned downtown because over the years there have been plenty of complaints about parking. The fact is that people have the perception that they are walking long distances to a point downtown if they park in the ramp or a couple of blocks away, when in fact they are often closer than if they were parked at the Alerus Center for an event. I used the mall as an example because it shows that you are not required by law to provide parking needed to serve peak crowds. They clear snow from grass fields to add parking spots during the Christmas season, and those are often full during busy Christmas shopping days whether you've seen it or not.

You want to know where I park? Depending on the year, I used the parking ramp 1/4 to 1/2 the time the last couple of years. I have taken shuttles from establishments in the past, but very rarely. Sometimes I get access to a parking pass on site. The rest of the time I park either by Tabula or by the Nursing School and walk the rest of the way.

I believe that buying tickets and going to hockey games is discretionary spending or a "luxury" item in my budget. The ticket price does not include my getting to the game. I am responsible for getting to the game, and the cost of my getting to the game. UND is not responsible for paying any part of my getting to the game and the Parking Office should not run a deficit on a program hauling people to the game. There are options for me to park for free on the street within a short walking distance to the arena. I just have to get there early. There are other options for me to pay $10 to park within a short distance at the Wellness Center or near Albatross. Or I can pay $5 and walk further or come later. I don't expect to have someone else pay any part of my transportation costs to the hockey game

Running shuttles for students to get around campus during school hours is a completely different discussion. UND is in the business of education and the campus has become more spread out. It can be very difficult to get from a class on one end of campus to a class on the other end of campus within the 10 minutes alloted between classes. Providing a bus to help the student get from class to class on time is a reasonable cost of providing an education. And that cost is built into the cost of the education in some way.

But I'm pretty sure there was no "unlimited miles" clause in the bus lease contract. Have you ever leased a vehicle (not a short term rental car)? My guess is that you haven't. It isn't the same as purchasing. Leases are built based on miles that you expect to drive and the depreciation expected on that vehicle. Most car leases are written at either 12,000 miles per year or 15,000 miles per year for the length of the lease. If you know that you are going to use more or less you can negotiate those terms. However, if you go over the number of miles stated in your lease you will pay a penalty of so much per mile. That penalty can get quite expensive. You pay a penalty because the vehicle is more used than expected and worth less than was expected. I don't know what the terms of the bus lease are, but I am positive that there is no unlimited anything written into the lease.

[Redneksioux]

Most companies that lease vehicles (that I'm familiar with at least) go for an unlimited mileage lease. Never leased a bus but they may track them with an hour meter since they probably put on as many hours as miles?

[82SiouxGuy]

Most companies that lease vehicles (that I'm familiar with at least) go for an unlimited mileage lease. Never leased a bus but they may track them with an hour meter since they probably put on as many hours as miles?

Cars and other passenger vehicles are leased based on miles. Equipment can be leased based on hours. The buses could be based on hours, or some combination of miles and hours. All leases are based on what the vehicle is projected to be worth at the end of the lease. The lease payments need to cover the depreciation and any other costs, plus usually factor in a profit for the owner. If you have an unlimited mile lease, the projected worth at the end of the lease would probably be scrap value. It would be similar to purchasing the vehicle. The only reason to do an unlimited mile lease is if there were some tax incentives to lease versus owning. I could see that being a possibility for a business. There are no tax incentives for a government department.

[puck]

The rates for State Fleet rental is right here. https://www.dot.nd.g.../statefleet.htm Rental rate for a shuttle bus is 28/mile (budget guidlines say 40/mile), so that plus driver pay could easily be $800/bus. They were running at least 3 busses = $2400/night or $4800/weekend.

[smokey the cat]

The rates for State Fleet rental is right here. https://www.dot.nd.g.../statefleet.htm Rental rate for a shuttle bus is 28/mile (budget guidlines say 40/mile), so that plus driver pay could easily be $800/bus. They were running at least 3 busses = $2400/night or $4800/weekend.

I know when we rented UND vans for departmental things we paid by the mile for usage. I remember filling out the paperwork when I would drop them off.

[Cratter]

The rates for State Fleet rental is right here. https://www.dot.nd.g.../statefleet.htm Rental rate for a shuttle bus is 28/mile (budget guidlines say 40/mile), so that plus driver pay could easily be $800/bus. They were running at least 3 busses = $2400/night or $4800/weekend.

I hope the universities get a discount when it's "educational" use.

[Sioux-cia]

The rates for State Fleet rental is right here. https://www.dot.nd.g.../statefleet.htm Rental rate for a shuttle bus is 28/mile (budget guidlines say 40/mile), so that plus driver pay could easily be $800/bus. They were running at least 3 busses = $2400/night or $4800/weekend.

So, if the reason to stop the shuttle is lack of use and costs, cut it down to one bus and run the shuttle on a strict schedule.

[dunder15]

The rates for State Fleet rental is right here. https://www.dot.nd.g.../statefleet.htm Rental rate for a shuttle bus is 28/mile (budget guidlines say 40/mile), so that plus driver pay could easily be $800/bus. They were running at least 3 busses = $2400/night or $4800/weekend.

The rental rate for the shuttle buses is by the hour not by miles. The rental rate also includes the cost of the diesel fuel to run them.

So if they ran 4 buses for 5 hours each night at 28.00 an hour is only about $560.00. Just think what it cost UND to run them all day long. It would seem 20+ home games would be a very small amount of there total bill.

[MafiaMan]

From Ms Lucke: Here's a statement I’m sending in response to a number of emails I received. The hockey shuttle has been subsidized by the parking enterprise between $3000 and $6800 in recent years.

The parking ramp/hockey shuttle service has not been generating sufficient revenue to cover the cost of the service.

Peggy Lucke

Associate Vice President for Finance and Operations

University of North Dakota

Twamley Hall 116B

264 Centennial Drive, Stop 8364

Grand Forks, ND 58202-8364

So the parking/shuttle service has not generated enough revenue to cover the cost of the service, eh? Using that logic, shouldn't women's hockey, men's swimming, and perhaps softball, baseball, and football all be eliminated at UND?

[82SiouxGuy]

So the parking/shuttle service has not generated enough revenue to cover the cost of the service, eh? Using that logic, shouldn't women's hockey, men's swimming, and perhaps softball, baseball, and football all be eliminated at UND?

Why didn't you include all of the other sports other than hockey and maybe basketball? Providing athletic opportunities to students is part of the college experience even if those opportunities lose money. It is up to the school to determine how much they can afford to spend on those operations.. Other factors to consider in discussing non-revenue producing sports are things like Title IX and conference requirements. Providing parking or shuttle service at a loss to non-students is not normally associated with the proper operation of an institution of higher learning.

[Irish]

Why didn't you include all of the other sports other than hockey and maybe basketball? Providing athletic opportunities to students is part of the college experience even if those opportunities lose money. It is up to the school to determine how much they can afford to spend on those operations.. Other factors to consider in discussing non-revenue producing sports are things like Title IX and conference requirements. Providing parking or shuttle service at a loss to non-students is not normally associated with the proper operation of an institution of higher learning.

Wow - 82 Sioux guy sure is a company man - When I got my tickets and an additional donation to the Captains Club, I assumed that along with my ticket I got reasonable parking or the ability to get to the arena without a big hassle. Guess not. I feel that is an implied obligation on behalf of whoever is selling me the ticket. It an operation this big has to subsidize this a little, well so be it. I can't believe that those who do have parking are so callous to those who don't and don't want to walk 5-6 blocks in the winter with kids.

[smokey the cat]

Wow - 82 Sioux guy sure is a company man - When I got my tickets and an additional donation to the Captains Club, I assumed that along with my ticket I got reasonable parking or the ability to get to the arena without a big hassle. Guess not. I feel that is an implied obligation on behalf of whoever is selling me the ticket. It an operation this big has to subsidize this a little, well so be it. I can't believe that those who do have parking are so callous to those who don't and don't want to walk 5-6 blocks in the winter with kids.

Ironic but when I was kid everyone walked to school any many lived more than 5-6 blocks away. Didn't matter how cold it was. We also went outside at recess no matter how cold it was. Now your kid can not take a little cold? Or is it you that can not take a little cold?

[82SiouxGuy]

Wow - 82 Sioux guy sure is a company man - When I got my tickets and an additional donation to the Captains Club, I assumed that along with my ticket I got reasonable parking or the ability to get to the arena without a big hassle. Guess not. I feel that is an implied obligation on behalf of whoever is selling me the ticket. It an operation this big has to subsidize this a little, well so be it. I can't believe that those who do have parking are so callous to those who don't and don't want to walk 5-6 blocks in the winter with kids.

That may have been your assumption, but it has never been part of the ticket package unless you are at a high enough level of the Champions Club. It was never implied to me and I have been a season ticket holder since the building opened. Do you feel that any other venue has that obligation to provide you close parking at a reasonable rate? If you went to the Final Five at Xcel, did you feel that Xcel had an obligation to provide "reasonable parking", or did you pay whatever the prices? The closest lots were often $20 or $30. Have you gone to events at the Metrodome? Do you believe that they had an obligation to provide "reasonable parking"? There has never been a lot of parking real close to the Metrodome and the parking has never been reasonable. Or is REA the only venue that you believe has this obligation to provide "reasonable parking"?

I continue to be surprised at the level of outrage considering how few people actually used the ramp and shuttle. And I don't understand why you expect other people to pay so you can have this service to attend a college sporting event. It sounds like welfare for a very limited number of ticket holders except that welfare isn't supposed to be for luxury items. I am going to miss the ride to the arena, but I understand the decision. What ever happened to common sense, or has the sense of entitlement reached this level now?

[Redneksioux]

I see what you are saying and don't disagree with you on the subject 82, but it's tough to compare grand forks to Minneapolis or St. Paul for sporting event parking. This is grand forks! Very few places in town or in our area is space limited and parking space scarce. Go into a big city and it's a different story. That's expected. But in grand forks?

[bigskyvikes]

This is turning into the same arguments that are in politics. The people who have it all (or are more fortunate than others, ie.money, health, no children, young, etc...)have no compasion for the people who don't. Me me me, screw you world.

[gfhockey]

trust fund babies suck!

[fightingsioux4life]

Try again, Sport. I ain't saying this is scientific, but on Google Maps, at zoom 1" = 500', from the Southeast entrance of Alerus to farthest point of paved lots south of arena, it is 3". From the main entrance at REA, that barely gets you to the southern end of the Med School building, not the south lot at the med school. The parking ramp and A-lot north of Memorial Stadium are equidistant at approximately 4.5" (as the crow files). The Memorial Stadium lot is at least 5.5". The only lots I can find within 3" of REA are the REA lots (all reserved for games), the lot at 6th & Princeton (student housing), and the Wellness Center.

I am mildly amused that until this year, UND used to promote ramp usage on game nights by flashing on the electronic sign along Columbia "NO PUBLIC PARKING AT REA". So the truth was apparently okay when it was used as a means of generating parking revenue (or, GASP, serving the public!), but I haven't seen that message up there this season, and I'm pretty sure nothing has changed in the way of parking at REA.

Can we please avoid the useless comparisons to other venues without some meaningful qualifications? Alerus = football = mostly afternoon games during summer and fall. Totally worthless. Besides, I know I'm going to pay $5 there and if I get there early enough, I'm literally a few feet away from the big-time donors. No such option at REA. The mall is open during the day, every day, is served by mass transit, and is ringed with free parking all within short walking distance (and I have NEVER seen those lots full).

Whatever the arrangement between the University and the state regarding the operation of the buses, those aren't "North Dakota Dept. of Transp." markings on the sides, and I'm fairly sure that President Kelley chose the "unlimited local miles" and "loss damage waiver" options when he checked them out. Ownership/possession of the buses is a FIXED COST. Anybody care to speculate how the daily (all-day) operation of free campuswide shuttles does from a strictly dollars and cents standpoint?

Every opinion on this thread should start with your hockey parking arrangements (i.e., whether you have a permit) and the number and ages of young and/or elderly people you take to games. If you're already parking on-site, or if you are one of the childless tough guys who don't seem to mind the brisk walk in -20 wind chills on a regular basis, I'll be happy to disregard you. Frankly, I have more respect for the anti-hockey red-stater railing against government-subsidized anything than for the coddled donor who frankly has no dog in this fight.

And as for the government subsidy BS, give me a break. EVERYTHING the University does is subsidized by the State. If you want to take the short bus to Utopiaville, where that isn't the case, send me a postcard and let me know how things are. If the University cannot negotiate a fair share of athletics/gate/concession revenue to cover modest shortfalls on things such as parking and shuttles, the problem is squarely on the University. Killing the shuttle to mask fiscal incompetence is shameful.

I have been thinking about this myself. If UND is so cash-strapped, why don't they get rid of the campus-wide shuttles that run 9 months out of the year, 5 days a week (minus Christmas Break, Spring Break and Holidays) because they don't make money and thus are 100% "in the red"? If they can't afford to run shuttles for home hockey games (while charging for ramp parking), how can they afford those weekday shuttles for students? This is yet another 2+2=5 moment that doesn't pass the smell test. But according to some people on this forum, we should just accept whatever explanation is dished out by the suits in Twamley Hall and never, ever question authority.

As for me, I will continue asking the questions that should be asked. After all, we are all stakeholders here. Right?

[82SiouxGuy]

I see what you are saying and don't disagree with you on the subject 82, but it's tough to compare grand forks to Minneapolis or St. Paul for sporting event parking. This is grand forks! Very few places in town or in our area is space limited and parking space scarce. Go into a big city and it's a different story. That's expected. But in grand forks?

Parking lots take money to build and maintain. It's expensive to move snow all winter. It costs money to paint lines, clean the lots, repair, etc. Retail businesses build that into their overhead. Using the UND parking lots for sporting events wasn't part of the original budget for those lots. And the extra traffic causes issues that need to be paid for. Places like Grand Forks are just late to the party, more and more of them charge for parking. The difference is the amount. Like I said, I've paid $20 or $30 for parking at the Final Five.

[smokey the cat]

I have been thinking about this myself. If UND is so cash-strapped, why don't they get rid of the campus-wide shuttles that run 9 months out of the year, 5 days a week (minus Christmas Break, Spring Break and Holidays) because they don't make money and thus are 100% "in the red"? If they can't afford to run shuttles for home hockey games (while charging for ramp parking), how can they afford those weekday shuttles for students? This is yet another 2+2=5 moment that doesn't pass the smell test. But according to some people on this forum, we should just accept whatever explanation is dished out by the suits in Twamley Hall and never, ever question authority.

As for me, I will continue asking the questions that should be asked. After all, we are all stakeholders here. Right?

I think student fees cover a lot of the cost. Just like the amount of student fees goes to covering the losses of the athletic department. Which also means a lot of students pay a lot of money to them for things they never use. Whereas you guys are making a choice on how you spend your money. And what you get in return for your money.

[fightingsioux4life]

I believe that buying tickets and going to hockey games is discretionary spending or a "luxury" item in my budget. The ticket price does not include my getting to the game. I am responsible for getting to the game, and the cost of my getting to the game. UND is not responsible for paying any part of my getting to the game and the Parking Office should not run a deficit on a program hauling people to the game.

Based on this logic, Wal-Mart could get rid of their on-site parking and replace it with paid RV parking because "we are responsible for getting ourselves there" (taxi, city bus....whatever). And you would probably plunk down the cash for taxi fare or bus ticket and still shop at Wal-Mart. Well, at least you would have the store to yourself because 99% of the people would not stand for that nonsense. So why should UND hockey fans put up with it?

Also, how do you think it would work if the Xcel Energy Center in St. Paul had very limited on-site parking and people "were responsible for getting themselves there"? Without that big parking ramp connected to the arena, it would be a disaster. But when it comes to UND hockey, it's "just the way it is".

This small-time, local-yokel mentality will simply not work in the long-term. We wanted Division I athletics, we got Division I athletics. But unless we want to settle for being "Division I in name only", we had better start solving (or at least start planning to solve) some of these issues.