How will you vote June 12th?

[The Sicatoka]

Every Sioux tribe other than Spirit Lake has a policy against UND using the Sioux nickname. Should we honor all of their feelings? Or just Spirit Lake since they agree with your position?

Seems they have spoken.

[Sioux-cia]

I think the "kill the nickname" crowd could be better described as the "Save the University of North Dakota" crowd..............................

And this isn't World War II........................this is a cartoonish and abstract figment of somebody's imagination that we are all arguing over.

Your comment, bolded above, is sooooo wrong, I am compelled to respond. The majority of us on this site, the student athletes, the alumni and fans of the Fighting Sioux name and logo have not wanted to retain the name and logo because it is an 'abstract, cartoon'. We who love the name and logo know it represents soooo much more. I'm not going to take the time to write it all down, it would take to long and, I think, would make me cry. The save the name crowd is doing more than fighting to keep the name and logo, they are defying the NC$$'s actions in an attempt to preserve the right to free speech, to govern ourselves and to demand they adhere to their Mission statement to 'Respect institutional autonomy and philosophical differences'. It is not the NC$$'s role to become it's memberships' social conscience, to demand that we goose step to the beat of their drum, or to force us to conform to what they determine is right or wrong. The NC$$'s role is to protect student athletes from explotation, enforce academic standards, ensure safety on the field/ice, etc. It was never the intent of the 'founding fathers' that the NC$$ was to evolve into the social consciences of its' membership. I abhore the control they have over college athletic programs. BUT, until something is done to 'put them back in their place', the NC$$ has us by the short ones and I'm voting yes

[82SiouxGuy]

You really shouldn't correct things, because you never get them right.

[geaux_sioux]

Is there a dislike button anywhere? If not it should be invented.

[JohnboyND7]

DaveK is nuts.

[Goon]

Is there a dislike button anywhere? If not it should be invented.

I suggest doing this...

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by DaveK. View it anyway?

[82SiouxGuy]

The statement from the Committee is completely out of touch with reality. It is insulting, contains many lies, shows a complete lack of understanding of collegiate sports, and a lack of understanding of collegiate life. Any respect that the Committee may have deserved in the past is now lost. The fact that they are trying to force a state University to keep a sports nickname that the school does not want is beyond belief. It is now time to end this charade. Vote YES on Measure 4 for the good of the University of North Dakota.

[UNDBIZ]

Tim O'Keefe and some of his followers are putting out this propaganda...there statements and our committee's response.

Vote ‘Yes’ on Measure 4 Campaign

Opposition...statement

Few people are happy that we have to retire the UND Fighting Sioux nickname, but the cost of keeping it is just too great.

Committee's response...

How do you put a price on honor, what is 80 years of proud and honorable traditions valued at! What is your personal dignity worth? We say the price of capitulating is way too high! You do not have to retire your honor.

Oppositions...statement

NCAA will enforce sanctions that will severely damage the athletic and academic programs at UND.

Committee's response;

This is another distortion and fabrication; we have been living under the NCAA sanctions since Nov 30, 2010. The NCAA sanctions ARE exactly what the NCAA says they are, and was testified to in Federal court VERY MINIMAL, uniforms and logos in NCAA playoffs, home field in NCAA playoffs, that does not affect conference playoffs as witnessed by WCHA playoffs men’s and women’s 2012 and 2011 playoffs. UND football has played all scheduled games for the last two years and will continue to play the scheduled games through into the 2016 season, these are just simple facts.

Oppositions....statement

Several top regional universities, including Minnesota, Wisconsin and Iowa, have institutional policies prohibiting their teams from competing against schools under NCAA sanctions for American Indian imagery. This has already cost our football, basketball, track and volleyball teams several competitive opportunities, and it will soon impact hockey as well.

Committee response;

As for Minn., Wis., and Iowa there policy on Native American names and logo’s were adopted in 2005, how many games did they cancel….NONE! The only reason they won’t play us now they’re in a different league and conferences…for money. Iowa are called the “Hawkeyes” named after an Indian and how ironic is this they won’t play UND because it’s an Indian name!

Whose fault is this? Eight other states had only one tribe give permission to keep their Native name and imagery. We believe had the State board of higher ed, Attorney General, and University officials stood with the Sioux supporters in ND and the one tribe who gave perpetual use of their name would the NCAA have seen this differently. Why did they not stand with the supporters?

Oppositions....statement

Our membership in the Big Sky conference is also at risk, as is our ability to recruit top athletes and coaches. Athletes and coaches don’t want to be a university that is barred from competing with top tier schools.

Committee response;

This statement is full of holes and lies, the university finally signed the hockey coach long after they should have. When UND was so adamant about joining the Summit league and one day before they were to join, they dropped the Summit league and joined the Big Sky Conference, (BTW, when the Big Sky conference made the announcement it was splashed all over their website “the Sioux are coming”, and the day we were to testify at the legislatures, President Douple from the Summit league comes out and makes his statement that “he was pressured by Kelley”). You make up your own mind on the Big Sky conference? Is Fullerton a mouth piece for Kelley? Why would President Douple come out with his statement? What did he have to gain? And a legal contract has been signed w/big sky.

Opposition...statement

Sports play a critical role in the national reputation of universities and donors are less likely to invest in schools under NCAA sanctions. As our athletic program suffers, it will also affect our academic programs by reducing the amount of donations and grants the university receives on an annual basis.

Committee response;

Education plays a critical role in the national respect of a university, sports builds pride in that university not the other way around. When you lose your pride in your university you are less likely to get contributions. Athletes are recruited by a winning tradition, unless Kelley forces the team to play third stringers we will continue that winning tradition and recruiting will be just fine.

Opposition...statement

The Fighting Sioux nickname has been a source of pride, honor and excellence, but that isn’t enough anymore, and for the first time in history the leadership at UND is in full agreement on this issue. The UND Student Senate, University Senate, Staff Senate, Administration, Athletics (including all head coaches), Alumni Association and Foundation are all in support of retiring the nickname.

let UND retire the Fighting Sioux nickname.

Committee response;

With all the lies, distortions, and bull coming from the statements out of the university that lacks credibility, our committee is in touch everyday with alumni who believe this is wrong on so many levels. Let the ones who brought this on the university figure out how to deal with the sanctions they have helped bring on!

Committee's statement;

Think about this, had there been any effort by those so called supporters who are screaming the loudest in opposition to the name, if only they would of tried to work with the Native American supporters the last 5 years especially Spirit Lake do you really think we’d be here today fighting to keep the name and logo? Do you remember how the same group has worked through the courts to deny the citizens of North Dakota a voice just as they denied the Sioux a seat at the table in Indianapolis, Don’t you find it ridiculous that the Real Sioux of North Dakota brought a lawsuit against the NCAA who tells the Sioux that they are the police and protecting them against our own name that is hostile and abusive? If this entity (NCAA) is allowed to keep getting away with their corrupt practices what or who will be next?

WE ASK YOU TO STAND WITH US ON TRUTH AND PRINCIPLE AND VOTE “NO” TO KEEP THE NAME IN JUNE….80 years of tradition that has yet to harm anyone.

PLEASE SHARE THIS INFORMATION SOCIAL MEDIA IS ALL WE CAN AFFORD TO DO AT THIS TIME...IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO DONATE TO HELP OUR COMMITTEE GET THE TRUTH OUT GO TO OUR WEBSITE....savethefightingsioux.com Thank you!

Spirit Lake

Committee for Understanding and Respect

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

[The Sicatoka]

I abhore the control they have over college athletic programs. BUT, until something is done to 'put them back in their place', the NC$$ has us by the short ones and I'm voting yes

Sioux-cia wins the thread.

[82SiouxGuy]

You have now officially lost your marbles. It is O'Keefe's group that is completely out of touch with reality, they're seriously just as bad as the nazis at the NCAA. The Committee for Understanding and Respect are the only people involved in this debate with a rational thought in their heads. A YES vote is a vote to exterminate UND Fighting Sioux sports. You've been brainwashed by the PC zealots to take their side. The fact that your reason for taking that side is different than their reason makes no difference to them, they're just happy to have you on their side.

Let's see, another Nazi insult. Another PC zealot insult. You call the entire Alumni Association out of touch with reality, and compare them to Nazis. Good to know that you are consistent in your delusion and your insults.

[The Sicatoka]

You've been brainwashed by the PC zealots to take their side.

Brainwashed. No.

Coerced? Extorted? Held by the "shorties" (as Sioux-cia quaintly put it)? Yes.

A lot can happen between now and 2015. I've given the key to defeating the NCAA (get the NCAA declared a "state actor"), but until that happens UND must protect its enterprise.

[yababy8]

The statement from the Committee is completely out of touch with reality. It is insulting, contains many lies, shows a complete lack of understanding of collegiate sports, and a lack of understanding of collegiate life. Any respect that the Committee may have deserved in the past is now lost. The fact that they are trying to force a state University to keep a sports nickname that the school does not want is beyond belief. It is now time to end this charade. Vote YES on Measure 4 for the good of the University of North Dakota.

Seems like the big reality they are faced with is that the University most associated to their tribe is being coherced into killing their name as its nickname. And this is being done under the guise of protecting they themselves from being disrespected. Protected by the very people (NCAA) who will not listen to them, respect them, or honor them. Sounds like it is pretty important for them to have everyone get the fact that they have a great deal of pride in the Sioux name and it offends them to no end that this in not being respected by certain groups like the NCAA and others?!

The Spirit Lake Sioux have as big a horse in this race as anyone. So don't try to hard to assert that they are out of touch. and if your insulted, I wonder how they feel about right now?

ONE TIME, Let it be about the name!! VOTE NO!!!

[JohnboyND7]

Seems like the big reality they are faced with is that the University most associated to their tribe is being coherced into killing their name as its nickname. And this is being done under the guise of protecting they themselves from being disrespected. Protected by the very people (NCAA) who will not listen to them, respect them, or honor them. Sounds like it is pretty important for them to have everyone get the fact that they have a great deal of pride in the Sioux name and it offends them to no end that this in not being respected by certain groups like the NCAA and others?!

The Spirit Lake Sioux have as big a horse in this race as anyone. So don't try to hard to assert that they are out of touch. and if your insulted, I wonder how they feel about right now?

ONE TIME, Let it be about the name!! VOTE NO!!!

I don't think they let you enter a horse in the Kentucky derby after the race is already done. Sorry but no, Spirit Lake doesn't have a horse in it, and the courts are the ones who said it. It isn't hard to figure out.

Why would they feel insulted? Because a school has been told keep the name or face sanctions and they said, "Well, this name isn't worth keeping." Sorry to the Sioux people that you aren't worth being named after if it means UND will probably suffer greatly as a result?

When NDSU changed the name from Aggies to the Bison, did the farmers in North Dakota have a right to sue NDSU for no longer being named after them or to attempt to force them to keep the name? No. That is really childish, unnecessary, and uncalled for. Some people really just care about some nickname wayy too much and are willing to cling to any little reason to justify why keeping the name is a good idea. And as long as their are people out there like this who keep making this wayy too fun to watch...I will vote NO.

[82SiouxGuy]

Seems like the big reality they are faced with is that the University most associated to their tribe is being coherced into killing their name as its nickname. And this is being done under the guise of protecting they themselves from being disrespected. Protected by the very people (NCAA) who will not listen to them, respect them, or honor them. Sounds like it is pretty important for them to have everyone get the fact that they have a great deal of pride in the Sioux name and it offends them to no end that this in not being respected by certain groups like the NCAA and others?!

The Spirit Lake Sioux have as big a horse in this race as anyone. So don't try to hard to assert that they are out of touch. and if your insulted, I wonder how they feel about right now?

ONE TIME, Let it be about the name!! VOTE NO!!!

Your vote is an empty gesture that will make you feel good, harm the University, and in the end won't help anyone. You have been asked many times now what else could be done so that UND could keep the name without getting hurt. Your answer is this empty gesture to vote to keep the name. There are no more cards to play that would allow UND to keep the name without suffering sanctions.

Spirit Lake had an opportunity to keep the nickname. They didn't act in time. They waited until the rules changed and UND then needed 2 tribes to approve. Spirit Lake was late to the party. They can't expect to change the rules of the game after the game is done. This issue isn't important to the majority of the tribe, it is important to a small committee. But they aren't looking out for the best interests of the University, they are looking out for their selfish interests. Don't try and force your self interests on an organization that doesn't want them. It is time to move on. Vote YES on Measure 4.

[Hambone]

Although I've kept pretty quiet on this issue overall, I will say that 82 seems to nail my thoughts / feelings with his posts. Probably puts them into words better than I would as well. Dave, you are entitled to your opinion, and I will respectfully disagree with what your line of thinking is. It's time to move on.

[Siouxperfan7]

I don't think they let you enter a horse in the Kentucky derby after the race is already done. Sorry but no, Spirit Lake doesn't have a horse in it, and the courts are the ones who said it. It isn't hard to figure out.

Why would they feel insulted? Because a school has been told keep the name or face sanctions and they said, "Well, this name isn't worth keeping." Sorry to the Sioux people that you aren't worth being named after if it means UND will probably suffer greatly as a result?

When NDSU changed the name from Aggies to the Bison, did the farmers in North Dakota have a right to sue NDSU for no longer being named after them or to attempt to force them to keep the name? No. That is really childish, unnecessary, and uncalled for. Some people really just care about some nickname wayy too much and are willing to cling to any little reason to justify why keeping the name is a good idea. And as long as their are people out there like this who keep making this wayy too fun to watch...I will vote NO.

I have ZERO respect for any NDSU fan who is going to vote NO just to harm the UND athletic department. I am sure there a re many Bison fans who have just loved seeing this all play out and hope that this vote goes through to keep the name. If you are going to vote NO on measure 4 just to see your rival suffer, that is just awful.

I would compare it to if UND was playing a game (whether against NDSU or not) and an NDSU fan was cheering for our best athelete on the team to get injured. Now you can always cheer against a team to lose...that's find. But when you cheer for that team to suffer injury, then you are just a heartless fan. I would deffinitely say that is what you are doing here Johnyboy. I never had much respect for you before, but now I have absolutely ZERO respect for you. You can cheer against our school all you want. But to cheer for the destruction of its athletic department just for your amusement and entertainment is dispicaple. Shame on you and your other Bison idiot buddies who feel the same way.

[UNDColorado]

I have ZERO respect for any NDSU fan who is going to vote NO just to harm the UND athletic department. I am sure there a re many Bison fans who have just loved seeing this all play out and hope that this vote goes through to keep the name. If you are going to vote NO on measure 4 just to see your rival suffer, that is just awful.

I would compare it to if UND was playing a game (whether against NDSU or not) and an NDSU fan was cheering for our best athelete on the team to get injured. Now you can always cheer against a team to lose...that's find. But when you cheer for that team to suffer injury, then you are just a heartless fan. I would deffinitely say that is what you are doing here Johnyboy. I never had much respect for you before, but now I have absolutely ZERO respect for you. You can cheer against our school all you want. But to cheer for the destruction of its athletic department just for your amusement and entertainment is dispicaple. Shame on you and your other Bison idiot buddies who feel the same way.

I second your position. Johnboy it is absolutely pathetic that you are openly advertising that you will vote against UND just to hurt them. You guys are absolute losers and I hope karma rears its ugly head. Also, I did you a solid by going to vote on that link you posted in another thread, so do us all a solid and refrain from posting anything here for a week. I bet you can't do it. Prove me wrong!

[geaux_sioux]

I don't think they let you enter a horse in the Kentucky derby after the race is already done. Sorry but no, Spirit Lake doesn't have a horse in it, and the courts are the ones who said it. It isn't hard to figure out.

Why would they feel insulted? Because a school has been told keep the name or face sanctions and they said, "Well, this name isn't worth keeping." Sorry to the Sioux people that you aren't worth being named after if it means UND will probably suffer greatly as a result?

When NDSU changed the name from Aggies to the Bison, did the farmers in North Dakota have a right to sue NDSU for no longer being named after them or to attempt to force them to keep the name? No. That is really childish, unnecessary, and uncalled for. Some people really just care about some nickname wayy too much and are willing to cling to any little reason to justify why keeping the name is a good idea. And as long as their are people out there like this who keep making this wayy too fun to watch...I will vote NO.

Spirit Lake tried to be fashionably late for a party and showed up after it got busted by the cops and all the girls left

[watchmaker49]

What I find ironic is that all of you bashing DaveK were saying the same thing for years just a short time ago.

[82SiouxGuy]

What I find ironic is that all of you bashing DaveK were saying the same thing for years just a short time ago.

Few, if any, were willing to allow the University to be harmed by the sanctions. As people figured out that UND had lost, and that the sanctions would in fact go into effect, they changed their position on retiring the nickname. It has just taken different people different lengths of time to figure out that the fight was over. People are allowed to change their minds as they gather more information. Only a few, like Dave and Fetch and yababy, are willing to totally destroy the athletic department just to keep the nickname.

[Siouxperfan7]

What I find ironic is that all of you bashing DaveK were saying the same thing for years just a short time ago.

We all love the Fighting Sioux name and all it has stood for of the University of North Dakota. None of us here want to see the name go. Like 82SiouxGuy said, we have all come to the acceptance that keeping the name would eventually harm the athletic department. Whether it was 2 years ago when the deadline for approval ended, when the law was passed, when the delegation met with the NCAA last summer, whenever: those of us who can see the writing on the wall have accepted the fact that the name must be retired. Is it worth fighting to the end....sure. Dave, Fetch, etc are passionate about their views. I was once there too. I hear ya. But you have to understand that their are penalties and great risks in keeping the name. Not hosting playoff games...thats not a threat. It's reality. If the football team goes undefeated and is the #1 ranked team in the country, they will be playing all their games on the road. Ask NDSU if home field advantage is a big deal!! The Big Sky conference does not absolutely need us. Its not lie we are a longstanding member. We are not even an official member yet. If the Big Sky decides they don;t want us...we are a D1 independent. Then we will have scheduling nightmares. Remember the teams we played in all non hockey sports....that is what our schedules will look like without a conference. These threats are real. If the Big Sky kicks us out because of issues with the name, what conference is going to want to bring that in to their conference. Those are REAL consequences. Recruits are going to be hesitant to play for a school that has the the word SANCTIONS next to it. Recruiting will pay the price. These are real issues that all of us that are voting YES on June 12th have learned and accepted will happen with the continues use of the name. We can always honor the Fighting Sioux name forever. But to do what is good for the University and its athletics, we have to accept that our continued fight is not worth the eventual outcomes.

Voting Yes on June 12th does not mean that I am against the Fighting Sioux name. It means that the teams I cheer and the University they represent are more important than my selfish desires to keep the name I have cheered for my entire life.

[bincitysioux]

You have now officially lost your marbles. It is O'Keefe's group that is completely out of touch with reality, they're seriously just as bad as the nazis at the NCAA. The Committee for Understanding and Respect are the only people involved in this debate with a rational thought in their heads. A YES vote is a vote to exterminate UND Fighting Sioux sports. You've been brainwashed by the PC zealots to take their side. The fact that your reason for taking that side is different than their reason makes no difference to them, they're just happy to have you on their side.

So now DaveK is calling Tim O'Keefe a nazi........................

[bincitysioux]

Your comment, bolded above, is sooooo wrong, I am compelled to respond. The majority of us on this site, the student athletes, the alumni and fans of the Fighting Sioux name and logo have not wanted to retain the name and logo because it is an 'abstract, cartoon'. We who love the name and logo know it represents soooo much more. I'm not going to take the time to write it all down, it would take to long and, I think, would make me cry. The save the name crowd is doing more than fighting to keep the name and logo, they are defying the NC$$'s actions in an attempt to preserve the right to free speech, to govern ourselves and to demand they adhere to their Mission statement to 'Respect institutional autonomy and philosophical differences'. It is not the NC$$'s role to become it's memberships' social conscience, to demand that we goose step to the beat of their drum, or to force us to conform to what they determine is right or wrong. The NC$$'s role is to protect student athletes from explotation, enforce academic standards, ensure safety on the field/ice, etc. It was never the intent of the 'founding fathers' that the NC$$ was to evolve into the social consciences of its' membership. I abhore the control they have over college athletic programs. BUT, until something is done to 'put them back in their place', the NC$$ has us by the short ones and I'm voting yes

I've been "called out" on numerous occaisons by my willingness to characterize the logo as "cartoonish" figure.

Let me be clear: I feel that that the Fighting Sioux name and logo are one of the most beautiful depictions of a symbol in all of sports, both collegiately and professionally. I love the tradition of the Fighting Sioux. I never played sports at the University, but having lived in North Dakota all my life, attended the University and graduated from the University, I consider my self a Fighting Sioux. I think the NCAA's position on this subject is completely wrong and offensive.

However, at the end of the day, the current logo that adorns my numerous hats and shirts and walls in my home is nothing more than an artist's rendering of what that one artist alone believes that a Sioux Indian looks like. The current logo is the seventh variation of the Sioux logo to be used in some form by the University. There is only one University of North Dakota, and that is where my allegiance lies.

I call it a cartoon to make a point. Cartoons are changed, modified, updated, and evolve over time. Although the name and physical appearance of the drawings may change; the history, traditions, and legacy remain...............

[UNDColorado]

Great editorial in the Forum today: http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/361031/group/Opinion/

I have faith that common sense will prevail in this vote and it is encouraging to see an article like this come from Fargo.

[82SiouxGuy]

Great editorial in the Forum today: http://www.inforum.c.../group/Opinion/

I have faith that common sense will prevail in this vote and it is encouraging to see an article like this come from Fargo.

Two very important paragraphs from that editorial. I think they cover the opinions of most on this forum. I hope that the actual vote goes this way.

The finding that the “hostile and abusive” description is not shared by most North Dakotans suggests that, if it were possible, they would rather not scrap the logo. But North Dakotans are smart and pragmatic. They understand the NCAA will not bend. Since the NCAA is a private membership organization (not a government agency), UND’s choices are to adhere to the rules of the organization or quit and join another athletic association. But without NCAA membership, UND would drift into a backwater of collegiate athletics at a time when the school’s sports teams are demonstrating they are fit to compete at the NCAA’s D-I level. UND hockey, of course, has been competing at the highest level for years.

But it’s not only about collegiate sports, although anyone who dismisses the sports factor is living in never-never land. UND’s reputation as a first-rate academic, research and sports school has been battered by the nickname circus. Whether a small but noisy cabal of parochial North Dakotans like it or not, UND plays on a national stage. The protracted logo drama has detracted from the university’s hard-earned status as a school of national prominence.