Goon Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 Watching Dave "spin" his way through this issue is a pretty amusing way to start the day. Then again, my coffee is just starting to kick in ... After reading Dave's posts, I felt like drinking something other than coffee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchmaker49 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 After reading Dave's posts, I felt like drinking something other than coffee. After seeing all the hypocricy here being posted I just shake my head. Does picking on DaveK and Fetch make all of you feel better about your major flip-flop? All of you were die-hard never let the moniker go crowd at one time, and even used some of DaveK and Fetch's arguements yourself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 After seeing all the hypocricy here being posted I just shake my head. Does picking on DaveK and Fetch make all of you feel better about your major flip-flop? All of you were die-hard never let the moniker go crowd at one time, and even used some of DaveK and Fetch's arguements yourself. People might had similar feelings as those two, but the difference came when there started to be actual evidence of harm. This is what seemed to change most people's mind. The two you cite have openly said that they would rather lose the athletic department than the nickname and most people realize that is a very extreme position that a rational person would not support. Knowing when to cut your losses is not a hypocritical stance. When actual evidence of harm comes forward rather than vague possible actions, a change in opinion is defendable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 After seeing all the hypocricy here being posted I just shake my head. Does picking on DaveK and Fetch make all of you feel better about your major flip-flop? All of you were die-hard never let the moniker go crowd at one time, and even used some of DaveK and Fetch's arguements yourself. Nice, broad statements since you don't know who most of the people here are or what positions they have had over time. And it doesn't take into account the fact that the issue has evolved some over time. Dave and Fletch have made some outrageous statements on the issue that very few other people have even come close to duplicating, and they don't accept actual facts that are presented. Continually saying that it would be better to let the athletic department be shut down rather than change the nickname deserves some opposition. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 After seeing all the hypocricy here being posted I just shake my head. Does picking on DaveK and Fetch make all of you feel better about your major flip-flop? All of you were die-hard never let the moniker go crowd at one time, and even used some of DaveK and Fetch's arguements yourself. How is it a flip flop, the state reps had the vote in the legislature Al Carlson and the ND Delegation went to the NCAA said they're not budging, time to move on? Are you going to say that Hakstol et al also flip flopped on the nickname as well? Many of us support the nickname but have seen information that leads us to believe that this nickname is going to drag the university down… Unlike some that are putting out fallacious information, saying that the NCAA and the Big Sky is bluffing, I don’t think they’re bluffing at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 People might had similar feelings as those two, but the difference came when there started to be actual evidence of harm. Bingo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VMeister Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 No, because the Flickertails name was never as heavily marketed as the Fighting Sioux name. The Fighting Sioux name has become the identity and the soul of UND sports in ways that the Flickertails name never came close to. Granted, that happened way before my time but I would be willing to bet if we were to go back and look at old GF Herald microfilms from that era we would not find anything to suggest that people had a sentimental attachment to that name the way we now have to the Fighting Sioux name. Did your Mother change her name when she married your Father? How can you even look her in the eyes? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchmaker49 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 How is it a flip flop, the state reps had the vote in the legislature Al Carlson and the ND Delegation went to the NCAA said they're not budging, time to move on? Are you going to say that Hakstol et al also flip flopped on the nickname as well? Many of us support the nickname but have seen information that leads us to believe that this nickname is going to drag the university down… Unlike some that are putting out fallacious information, saying that the NCAA and the Big Sky is bluffing, I don’t think they’re bluffing at all. Spin around all you want but all of you were DaveKs and Fetchs not that long ago. Yes I would say Hak et al flip-flopped like a fish that jumped out of the tank. It is not going to drag the unversity down, just the sports. Would that really be such a major loss? Look at Minnesota and their lousy sport teams, and scandals, and the university lives on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Are watchmaker49's true colors showing? UND is all of UND ... including athletics as part of the mission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxperfan7 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Spin around all you want but all of you were DaveKs and Fetchs not that long ago. Yes I would say Hak et al flip-flopped like a fish that jumped out of the tank. It is not going to drag the unversity down, just the sports. Would that really be such a major loss? Look at Minnesota and their lousy sport teams, and scandals, and the university lives on. Circumstances change which allow people to change their opinions on certain subjects. Yes, many of us were for keeping the name. But after finding out information about the consequesnces of doing so NOW, we have changed our opinion on the issue based on what is the right thing to do for the athletic department and University. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homer Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Spin around all you want but all of you were DaveKs and Fetchs not that long ago. Yes I would say Hak et al flip-flopped like a fish that jumped out of the tank. It is not going to drag the unversity down, just the sports. Would that really be such a major loss? Look at Minnesota and their lousy sport teams, and scandals, and the university lives on. When the nickname represents the sports teams and the only thing that will be drug down by keeping the nickname is the sports teams than I would say that its a major loss. They kind of go together. Some were DaveKs and Fletchs not long ago but as the whole situation around the nickname has changed, opinions are allowed to change as well. Just like Hakstol, I don't think any of us want the name to go, but the costs of keeping it now outweigh the benefits. If the Big Sky drops UND, Minnesota and Wisconsin along with others stop scheduling, and top recruits stop signing, DaveK and Fletch get to go about their everyday business and lose nothing. Hakstol, Mussman and others will have to deal with it head on and will be the ones who get questioned on why their programs are suffering. I'll take the opinion of those with some skin in the game over those posting under false screen names and nothing to lose everytime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 It is not going to drag the unversity down, just the sports. Wrong. You are the company you keep. Do you want to keep being associated with Minnesota, Wisconsin, Montana, and Denver, ...or would you rather UND Athletics forced into the NAIA and being associated with schools of that academic calibre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightingsioux4life Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Spin around all you want but all of you were DaveKs and Fetchs not that long ago. Yes I would say Hak et al flip-flopped like a fish that jumped out of the tank. It is not going to drag the unversity down, just the sports. Would that really be such a major loss? Look at Minnesota and their lousy sport teams, and scandals, and the university lives on. You are 100% dead wrong about that. A strong, successful and vibrant athletic program is a tremendous marketing tool for colleges and universities. Want proof? How many people would know where Gonzaga is if their basketball team hadn't knocked off some big-time programs in March in the late 1990's? How many people now know where NDSU is after they won the FCS Football title in January of 2012? How many people know about UND because of the success of our hockey program at a national level? This isn't Europe, where you don't have organized college sports. And it isn't Canada, where college sports is really for participation and nothing more. College athletics are an important part of the college experience in the United States. Sometimes it's for the better, sometimes it's for the worse, but it's an undeniable fact. And destroying the athletic department at UND would have a negative impact on everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 You are 100% dead wrong about that. A strong, successful and vibrant athletic program is a tremendous marketing tool for colleges and universities. Want proof? How many people would know where Gonzaga is if their basketball team hadn't knocked off some big-time programs in March in the late 1990's? How many people now know where NDSU is after they won the FCS Football title in January of 2012? How many people know about UND because of the success of our hockey program at a national level? This isn't Europe, where you don't have organized college sports. And it isn't Canada, where college sports is really for participation and nothing more. College athletics are an important part of the college experience in the United States. Sometimes it's for the better, sometimes it's for the worse, but it's an undeniable fact. And destroying the athletic department at UND would have a negative impact on everything else. I think its sad to say we are more known for our nickname contraversey than our sports teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightingsioux4life Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I think its sad to say we are more known for our nickname contraversey than our sports teams. Before August 5th, 2005, we had developed a reputation for success in NCAA Division I Men's Hockey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchmaker49 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Before August 5th, 2005, we had developed a reputation for success in NCAA Division I Men's Hockey. A sport that plays backseat to lacrosse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Time will tell I hope you know it all's are wrong All I know it would have ended long ago it & many other things in life would be different if everyone was so quick & afraid to fight & stand up to a Bully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchmaker49 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 You are 100% dead wrong about that. A strong, successful and vibrant athletic program is a tremendous marketing tool for colleges and universities. Want proof? How many people would know where Gonzaga is if their basketball team hadn't knocked off some big-time programs in March in the late 1990's? How many people now know where NDSU is after they won the FCS Football title in January of 2012? How many people know about UND because of the success of our hockey program at a national level? This isn't Europe, where you don't have organized college sports. And it isn't Canada, where college sports is really for participation and nothing more. College athletics are an important part of the college experience in the United States. Sometimes it's for the better, sometimes it's for the worse, but it's an undeniable fact. And destroying the athletic department at UND would have a negative impact on everything else. And what has it done for Gonzaga or NDSU? Explain how destroying the athletic department would hurt UND? Not random statements but empirical evidence. Will the university lose grant funding? Will the university lose students or potential students? Will profesors not be published? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 A sport that plays backseat to lacrosse. And yet it's one of the few sports that is profitable for the NCAA and for many of the schools that play it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchmaker49 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 And yet it's one of the few sports that is profitable for the NCAA and for many of the schools that play it. List the schools where it is profitable please. Then you can list all the profitable football programs next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 And yet it's one of the few sports that is profitable for the NCAA and for many of the schools that play it. I read a few years ago on the NC$$'s website that the men's hockey tourney is only second to men's bouncyball in profitability for them. Not sure where lacrosse or women's bouncyball fall into the mix. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 And what has it done for Gonzaga or NDSU? Explain how destroying the athletic department would hurt UND? Not random statements but empirical evidence. Will the university lose grant funding? Will the university lose students or potential students? Will profesors not be published? The school uses sports to market the University, especially in the Twin Cities. So yes, they would probably lose students. I don't work for UND so I don't have specific data. However, I have had friends that live in the Twin Cities whose children became interested in UND because of watching Sioux-Gopher hockey games. Without that they would have had little or no interest or awareness. Usually the parents are originally from this area, but not always alumni. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 the sheep analogy still stands (only Ira ran off with pinky) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchmaker49 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 The school uses sports to market the University, especially in the Twin Cities. So yes, they would probably lose students. I don't work for UND so I don't have specific data. However, I have had friends that live in the Twin Cities whose children became interested in UND because of watching Sioux-Gopher hockey games. Without that they would have had little or no interest or awareness. Usually the parents are originally from this area, but not always alumni. That is not empirical evidence. Please try citing a source with fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 List the schools where it is profitable please. Then you can list all the profitable football programs next. Do your own research, I don't have time to go find all of the numbers. I can tell you from looking in the past that most of the top hockey programs are profitable. That includes the obvious schools like UND, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Denver, Boston College, Boston University, Maine, etc. Nebraska-Omaha dropped football to move up to Division I because they were losing money in football and saw the opportunity to make more money in hockey (they didn't get to share in Division I proceeds as long as they were Division II). More than half of Division I football programs lose money, including most FCS programs. Only the top programs like the top half of the Big 10 and the top half of the SEC make large amounts of money on football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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