The Sicatoka Posted March 24, 2012 Posted March 24, 2012 As I watched games yesterday, played by Spartans, and Dutchmen, and a team with a tribe's name on their shirt (Miami), I harkened back to this .... The NCAA's original policy targeted "race, ethnicity, or national origin" based monikers. They're going after the Native American monikers first. And they added words to the Settlement Agreement (same link as above) with UND about removing the "tribal approval" clause. That tells that they'll be coming for more later. How much more? Well, read the original Aug 5, 2005, words ("race, ethnicity, national origin"). The rest of the schools out there should be taking note. I'm pretty sure the like-minded elitists at the NCAA would love it if we all were Harvard (a color, no mascot, a letter mark logo) or Stanford (a color, and a tree, a letter mark logo) or Syracuse (a color, a fruit mascot). If feels like they're targeting UND. But we're the first big rock they have to crack to get to where they really want to be. And given that they make the rules ... Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 24, 2012 Posted March 24, 2012 Here is a partial timeline of efforts to remove Native American nicknames and imagery from the sports world through 2001. I found it at http://www.nativevillage.org/Messages%20from%20the%20People/timeline%20for%20Indian%20Mascots.htm and tried to edit out the high schools, community colleges and pro team references as well as most of the civil rights orginizations and other type groups unless I thought they were interesting. You will notice the first official NCAA position on the list comes in 1998. I don't know if they had a position before that. ESPN has done stories on the issue going back to the 1990's. The US Census Bureau took a position in 1999. Most of the larger colleges removed all NA nicknames or imagery during this time. If you go through the list on the web site you will see a lot of state education associations taking positions and a lot of high schools removing names, including Grand Forks Central and Dickinson. You may also notice that the late 1990's was a very active time for this issue not just at UND. 1968National Congress of American Indians (NCAI) launches campaign to address stereotypes found in print and in other media1969NA activists at Dartmouth College continue to promote changes in that school'sIndians nickname. replaced soon by Big Green1970University of Oklahoma retires its Little Red mascot that had been traditional since 1940's1971Marquette University (MI) abandons its Willie Wampum mascot. Prior to the 1994 season, the MU changed Warriors to Golden Eagles.1972A petition by AI students at Stanford University results in the school dropping Indian sports team nickname and logos.Increasing efforts begun in the 1960's, First Nations students at the University of North Dakota (UND) take steps to retire the school's Fighting Sioux nickname.1979Syracuse University (NY) did away with Saltine Warrior mascot.1980Southern Oregon University ends a tradition begun in 1950 when its Red Raiders sports teams cease using several depictions ofIndian chiefs as mascots and symbolic logos for sporting events1988Siena College in NY dropsIndians - are now Saints.Saint Mary's college (MN) changes from Red Men to the Cardinals.1989Charlene Teters, NA graduate student attending University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, initiates efforts to eliminate that school's Chief Illiniwek.1991The National Education Associate (NEA) the largest educational organization of its kind in the world, passes resolutions in 2 consecutive years (91/92) denouncing the use of ethnic related sports team mascots, symbols, and nicknames.Eastern Michigan University changes its Huron nickname to Eagles.1992Simpson college, drops its Redmen and Lady Reds to Storm. 1993 [*] National Congress of American Indians issues a resolution which "denounces the use of any American Indian name or artifice associated with team mascots." 1994 [*] Hartwick College in Oneonta, New York, exchanged it's "Warriors" nickname for "Hawks." [*] Prior to the 1994-95 season Marquette University retired its "Warriors" nickname in favor of "Golden Eagles." 1995 [*] St. John's, the largest Catholic university in America, drops its "Redmen" nickname in favor of "Redstorm." 1996 [*] University of Tennessee at Chattanooga discontinues the use of its"Chief Moccanooga" mascot. The following year the team's "Moccasins" nickname was shortened to "Mocs" in reference to Tennessee's state bird, the Mockingbird. [*] Miami University of Ohio (Oxford, OH) drops its "Redskins" nickname. [*] The United Methodist Church takes an official stance Concerning Demeaning Names to Native Americans as well as on other related topics. 1997 [*] Jay Rosenstein's documentary "In Whose Honor" is aired nationally on the Public Broadcasting System TV show "Point of View." Mr. Rosenstein's film highlights Charlene Teters' efforts to eliminate the "Chief Illiniwek" mascot used by the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. 1998 [*] Yakima College (Washington State) respects concerns expressed by its American Indian community and elects to retire the institution's race-related mascot. [*] The Kansas Association for Native American Education (KANAE) issues a resolution that "...calls for the elimination of use of American Indian mascots and logos in all public and private schools in the State of Kansas..." [*] The American Jewish Committee approves a statement on team names which notes it "deplores and opposes the use of racial or ethnic stereotypes in the names or titles of business, professional, sport or their public entitles when the affected group has not chosen the name itself." [*] Approximately 200 anti-"Indian" mascot activists from around the country converge at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana for the first national Conference on the Elimination of Racist Mascots. [*] Southern Nazarene University, a small Christian school in Bethany, Oklahoma, retires its "Redskins" nickname in favor of "Crimson Storm." [*] National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Minority Opportunities and Interests Committee concludes that "Indian mascots that promote Indian caricatures and mimic ceremonial rites do not comply with the NCAA's commitment to ethnic student welfare." [*] Oklahoma City University, a college affiliated with the United Methodist Church, decides to replace its "Chiefs" nickname dating back to 1944. [*] Morningside College of Sioux City, Iowa, changes its nickname from the "Maroon Chiefs" to the Mustangs. 1999 [*] Following the lead of its Champaign-Urbana branch, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) unanimously approves a second mascot resolution. [*] Appalled by the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana's use of a stereotypic "Indian" mascot the prestigious Society for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of the Americas offers a formal position onIlliniwek. [*] The U.S. Census Bureau adopts a policy on non-use of Athletic Teams with American Indian or Alaska Native Names in Promoting Census 2000 [*] Oklahoma City University finalizes plans to change its "Chiefs" nickname to "Stars." [*] ESPN airs a special program on Native Americans in sports and which contains a segment on the mascot issue. Follow-up coverage included an insightful online chat session with leading advocate, Suzan Shown Harjo. [*] The Society of Indian Psychologists of the Americans issues a position statement that receives recognition in a publication of the prestigious American Psychological Association. [*] The Hutchinson Human Relations Commission, Hutchinson Kansas, issues a resolution 2000 [*] Hendrix College in Arkansas retires its stereotypic "Indian-head" logo while retaining its "Warriors" nickname. [*] Seattle University, a Jesuit school in Washington State, completes its transition from the "Chieftains" to the "Redhawks." 2001 [*] In an action that removes all doubt about the seriousness of concerns surrounding the use of"Indian" sports team tokens, The United States Commission on Civil Rights issues a position statement calling for educational institutions to avoid use of such ethnic nicknames and mascots. [*] Following its President's recommendation, along with support from coaches and student government leaders, Southwestern College in Chula Vista, California, wisely elects to change its "Apaches" mascot to "Jaguars." [*] Advocates from across the country convene at the Northern Plains Conference on American Indian Team Names and Logos held at the University of North Dakota, Grand Forks. [*] The Minnesota Indian Education Association adopts a resolution in opposition to the University of North Dakota's use of the "Fighting Sioux" name and logo. [*] The Quinnipiac University Board of Trustees Votes To Discontinue Use of'The Braves' Nickname [*] Cumberland College in Williamsburg, Kentucky, changes it's "Indian" themed mascot to "Patriots." Quote
Teeder11 Posted March 24, 2012 Posted March 24, 2012 Wow!!! Now that is a leap. That might be a world record for the long jump. If you know anything about the US government you would know that they work on things for a long time before they issue statements like that. They were probably working on the issue for years before issuing a statement, not just 3 months. If you truly believe that Ralph's letter was the catalyst for the United States Commission on Civil Rights report, as well as the NCAA policy on Native American imagery you are really delusional. UND and Ralph Engelstad are not the center of the universe. Native American nicknames and imagery being used for sports teams have been an issue for many years. UND was just part of that issue because they had an active opposing group. The NCAA targeted 33 schools, not just UND. And this was just the first wave of their efforts to remove ethic or culturally sensitive nicknames. They will come back and try again to remove the rest of the Native American names. They will move on to others until all human-related nicknames are removed from college sports. This wasn't a vendetta against UND. You really do like conspiracy theories, don't you. ^^^^^^^This is key. I have written before about how active and vocal the Northern Plains' tribes were/have been in relative comparision to other N.A. tribes, bands and clans across the nation. This opposition was adopted very early on by a number of pointy headed PC faculty at UND as a cause célèbre, or more aptly, a feel-good pet cause, long before the term "political correctness" was coined. These groups' protests, resolutions, formation of opposition groups (i.e. BRIDGES), and outspoken promotion of their message through the media definitely attracted a spotlight toward UND and the Northern Plains tribes, but the NCAA's actions were, at least initially, an across-the-board move and not borne of some organizational vendetta against one institution. Later on, the NCAA did itself a disservice by muddying the waters with allowances and exeptions for other schools as a result of political pressures. However, it should be repeated that UND was given the same opportunity for an exemption, but at the time, Standing Rock's Tribal Council was opposed and SL was apathetic at best. In fact, back in my journalism days, I remember making repeated attempts for comment from Myra Pearson, SL Tribal Chairwoman, to nail down her (and the tribe's) position on the issue. Without fail, she either didn't take my call, was conveniently out of the office or out of town, never ever returned my calls, e-mails or snail mail attempts to reach her. The only thing that I didn't do was go to her house and knock on her door. I always frowned on this practice by reporters, as it comes off as stalking. I had similar experiences with other members of the council. When I did pin someone down to make a comment ... the response was always that the issue was "not high on the tribes priority list" or that the "tribe had more important matters to deal with." One time, when I showed up in Fort Totten, when the matter actually did come up before the Tribal Council as a matter of discussion (not a vote) I was politely asked to leave the "Blue Building," the administrative/tribal headquarters, because tribal leaders contended that a reporters' presence would hinder free discussion within the group. I did get plenty of comments from pro-nickname tribal members over the years and I published what they told me. The reason the Tribal Council's opinions mattered to me most was because these were the voices that the NCAA would listen to -- the only ones that would make a difference in the fight, and all I got from them was the sound of crickets. Quote
southpaw Posted March 24, 2012 Posted March 24, 2012 Let's be the Apaches and have Boeing provide us with a helicopter with UND all over it. Quote
Teeder11 Posted March 24, 2012 Posted March 24, 2012 Let's be the Apaches and have Boeing provide us with a helicopter with UND all over it. I'd rather be "Fighting Sioux" or something else. But I get your bigger point. Quote
yababy8 Posted March 24, 2012 Posted March 24, 2012 that's a good link you posted 82Siouxguy. I did notice on there though that the time line ended in 2003. that makes me wonder if the activity about getting rid of native american mascots has diminished send then? and if I wanted to stick to my theory I had expressed earlier I could ask a question like, "hey. if all of these organizations were concerned about native american names in general then why did they unilaterally stop there activity in 2003? all of the other names are still around redskins, chiefs, not to mention the NCAA teams? it's kind of weird that there was all that passion from all of those institutions, and then all the sudden there's nothing except the lingering effects of what they did to us in 2005? I kown there has been some activity but how much I wonder compared to when they were working out screwing us? I'M just say'n... ...Fred, am I to understand that you were both winning national championships and doing journalism back in the day. ... anyway time to focus on hockey, defense wins championships! dell rocks! He is mr. position' Simpson and Forbort have both come alive at the end of the season to make our defense very impressive! Quote
Teeder11 Posted March 24, 2012 Posted March 24, 2012 that's a good link you posted 82Siouxguy. I did notice on there though that the time line ended in 2003. that makes me wonder if the activity about getting rid of native american mascots has diminished send then? and if I wanted to stick to my theory I had expressed earlier I could ask a question like, "hey. if all of these organizations were concerned about native american names in general then why did they unilaterally stop there activity in 2003? all of the other names are still around redskins, chiefs, not to mention the NCAA teams? it's kind of weird that there was all that passion from all of those institutions, and then all the sudden there's nothing except the lingering effects of what they did to us in 2005? I kown there has been some activity but how much I wonder compared to when they were working out screwing us? I'M just say'n... ...Fred, am I to understand that you were both winning national championships and doing journalism back in the day. ... anyway time to focus on hockey, defense wins championships! dell rocks! He is mr. position' Simpson and Forbort have both come alive at the end of the season to make our defense very impressive! that's a good link you posted 82Siouxguy. I did notice on there though that the time line ended in 2003. that makes me wonder if the activity about getting rid of native american mascots has diminished send then? and if I wanted to stick to my theory I had expressed earlier I could ask a question like, "hey. if all of these organizations were concerned about native american names in general then why did they unilaterally stop there activity in 2003? all of the other names are still around redskins, chiefs, not to mention the NCAA teams? it's kind of weird that there was all that passion from all of those institutions, and then all the sudden there's nothing except the lingering effects of what they did to us in 2005? I kown there has been some activity but how much I wonder compared to when they were working out screwing us? I'M just say'n... ...Fred, am I to understand that you were both winning national championships and doing journalism back in the day. ... anyway time to focus on hockey, defense wins championships! dell rocks! He is mr. position' Simpson and Forbort have both come alive at the end of the season to make our defense very impressive! No. Never won a national championship. Or a Pulitzer! I sucked. Freddy Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 24, 2012 Posted March 24, 2012 that's a good link you posted 82Siouxguy. I did notice on there though that the time line ended in 2003. that makes me wonder if the activity about getting rid of native american mascots has diminished send then? and if I wanted to stick to my theory I had expressed earlier I could ask a question like, "hey. if all of these organizations were concerned about native american names in general then why did they unilaterally stop there activity in 2003? all of the other names are still around redskins, chiefs, not to mention the NCAA teams? it's kind of weird that there was all that passion from all of those institutions, and then all the sudden there's nothing except the lingering effects of what they did to us in 2005? I kown there has been some activity but how much I wonder compared to when they were working out screwing us? I'M just say'n... ...Fred, am I to understand that you were both winning national championships and doing journalism back in the day. ... anyway time to focus on hockey, defense wins championships! dell rocks! He is mr. position' Simpson and Forbort have both come alive at the end of the season to make our defense very impressive! There has been plenty of activity since then. The telling fact is that the list stops in 2003, and the NCAA made their policy in 2005. It seems pretty obvious that whomever was creating the list stopped doing it in 2003 for whatever reason. Otherwise they would have listed all of the schools that changed their name from 2003-2007 as a result of the NCAA policy. The internet is full of abandoned web sites that live on for years and that list is just one example. You can find more information on efforts to end the use of NA nicknames at http://www.aistm.org/1indexpage.htm. Look at the recent news articles list and you will see stories from Colorado, North Carolina, Ohio, DC and many other locations in recent years. Quote
MplsBison Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 As I watched games yesterday, played by Spartans, and Dutchmen, and a team with a tribe's name on their shirt (Miami), I harkened back to this .... The NCAA's original policy targeted "race, ethnicity, or national origin" based monikers. They're going after the Native American monikers first. And they added words to the Settlement Agreement (same link as above) with UND about removing the "tribal approval" clause. That tells that they'll be coming for more later. How much more? Well, read the original Aug 5, 2005, words ("race, ethnicity, national origin"). The rest of the schools out there should be taking note. I'm pretty sure the like-minded elitists at the NCAA would love it if we all were Harvard (a color, no mascot, a letter mark logo) or Stanford (a color, and a tree, a letter mark logo) or Syracuse (a color, a fruit mascot). If feels like they're targeting UND. But we're the first big rock they have to crack to get to where they really want to be. And given that they make the rules ... I'm probably biased, but I tend to think of liberal policy has being pragmatic rather than ideological. Therefore, I think of the hostile and absuive policy being based in lawsuit mitigation. I don't foresee any Spartans or Dutchmen suing the NCAA over athletic team nicknames or mascots. Quote
The Sicatoka Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Pragmatic? On the one hand, Myles Brand once made the statement that stereotyping is wrong, which seemed to imply that it's wrong in general. So why implement a policy that applies to "race, ethnicity and national origin" if you never intend to apply it equally to all NCAA members that use stereotypical mascots? Some might conclude that it was a case of the NCAA merely pretending to be fair when it really wasn't. On the other hand, you also had Brand once proclaiming that the Fighting Irish nickname and logo were okay because "leprechauns are not people." But wouldn't the same people who look at the Fighting Sioux logo and think "The Sioux people are savages who still live in tipis" also look at Notre Dame's logo and think "The Irish are violent, ornery little green men"? If someone is dumb enough to think one thing, why wouldn't they also be dumb enough to think the other? The NCAA isn't pragmatic. It's the modern version of "Animal Farm" and they're picking who is more equal. Quote
GeauxSioux Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 I'm probably biased, but I tend to think of liberal policy has being pragmatic rather than ideological. Therefore, I think of the hostile and absuive policy being based in lawsuit mitigation. I don't foresee any Spartans or Dutchmen suing the NCAA over athletic team nicknames or mascots. I believe the exact opposite, but then again, I rarely agree with you. Quote
yababy8 Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Pragmatic? The NCAA isn't pragmatic. It's the modern version of "Animal Farm" and they're picking who is more equal. Good one! Quote
MplsBison Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Pragmatic? On the one hand, Myles Brand once made the statement that stereotyping is wrong, which seemed to imply that it's wrong in general. So why implement a policy that applies to "race, ethnicity and national origin" if you never intend to apply it equally to all NCAA members that use stereotypical mascots? Some might conclude that it was a case of the NCAA merely pretending to be fair when it really wasn't. On the other hand, you also had Brand once proclaiming that the Fighting Irish nickname and logo were okay because "leprechauns are not people." But wouldn't the same people who look at the Fighting Sioux logo and think "The Sioux people are savages who still live in tipis" also look at Notre Dame's logo and think "The Irish are violent, ornery little green men"? If someone is dumb enough to think one thing, why wouldn't they also be dumb enough to think the other? The NCAA isn't pragmatic. It's the modern version of "Animal Farm" and they're picking who is more equal. It makes sense to me as a practical measure for avoiding lawsuits from Native Nations. If a school on the list was able to ensure that the NCAA wasn't going to be sued, they got taken off the list. The great irony here is that the NCAA is being sued by a Sioux Nation to keep the nickname! Darned if they did and darned if they didn't. Quote
The Sicatoka Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 seems we survived the no logo ncaa gestapo If you mean they didn't find a word or logo at the West Regional, yes, you are correct. Quote
The Sicatoka Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 It makes sense to me as a practical measure for avoiding lawsuits from Native Nations. If a school on the list was able to ensure that the NCAA wasn't going to be sued, they got taken off the list. The great irony here is that the NCAA is being sued by a Sioux Nation to keep the nickname! Darned if they did and darned if they didn't. if the NCAA was as pragmatic as some believe, it never would have implemented the anti-nickname policy to begin with. That would have been the best way to avoid lawsuits. They could've avoided lawsuits by telling any court that a school's moniker is an issue of local school control, not NCAA control. Nor would it have enforced its allegedly RENO policy in such a one-sided (arbitrary and capricous?) manner. That appears to be an open invitation to lawsuits. It's not pragmatism. It's condescending, arrogant, "we know what's best for you" academic elitism and hypocrisy at its finest. However, the NCAA is getting away with it by living a line from a Mel Brooks movie: "It's good to be the king." Quote
darell1976 Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 If you mean they didn't find a word or logo at the West Regional, yes, you are correct. Except during the ESPN broadcast. They slipped out a bunch of "Sioux" here and there. I hope the NCAA goes easy on ESPN. Quote
petey23 Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 The NCAA selling Fighting Sioux Jerseys at the Xcel last weekend.....that is pragmatic! Quote
ScottM Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 It's not pragmatism. It's condescending, arrogant, "we know what's best for you" academic elitism and hypocrisy at its finest. I respectfully disagree. I see the their approach as very pragmatic, not so much to push their agenda, but to lay the ground work to snuff out the remaining schools' NA imagery in the future. These guys may be "true believers" but they didn't ascend the heights of academia by being stupid. If UND didn't put up a fight, they would have had no incentive to change their original rules to create some legitimacy and bolster them from further attack. They took a hard line with UND this summer to send a message to the other schools, that they do indeed make the rules. Once the SL litigation ends with a defeat for SL, either at the trial court or appellate level, the NC$$ now has sharp stick against future judicial interference. They can revisit their own policies, and decide that tribal "consent" really isn't enough, because it's not the tribe's to give in the first place, or the "oppressed" tribes really aren't capable of giving consent, sort of a duress argument. Then they roll that up with any dissenting tribes' views, and decide the NA names all have to go. So, FSU becomes the Rabid Chipmunks and Utah becomes the Fightin' Iguanas ... Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 The NCAA selling Fighting Sioux Jerseys at the Xcel last weekend.....that is pragmatic! Was it the NCAA selling Fighting Sioux jerseys, or was it the Xcel Energy Center selling Fighting Sioux jerseys? Xcel has sold Fighting Sioux jerseys before, and the NCAA wouldn't be able to control that. Quote
siouxjoy Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 If you mean they didn't find a word or logo at the West Regional, yes, you are correct. I noticed two logos in the locker room during the WDAZ report and player interviews after the WMU game. One was some bag with the Sioux head and Blood's number presumably above his locker on a shelf, and the other was a hard hat with the Sioux head located above I believe Dell's stuff. My heart stopped! Quote
fightingsioux4life Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 I noticed two logos in the locker room during the WDAZ report and player interviews after the WMU game. One was some bag with the Sioux head and Blood's number presumably above his locker on a shelf, and the other was a hard hat with the Sioux head located above I believe Dell's stuff. My heart stopped! Does that mean that Minnesota's 5-2 win gets tossed out and replaced with a forfeit win? After last Sunday, I'll take whatever I can get. Quote
BigGreyAnt41 Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Was it the NCAA selling Fighting Sioux jerseys, or was it the Xcel Energy Center selling Fighting Sioux jerseys? Xcel has sold Fighting Sioux jerseys before, and the NCAA wouldn't be able to control that. If that's the case, then REA certainly shouldn't have to remove a single Sioux head from the entire arena. REA isn't owned by UND anymore than Xcel is owned by UM. The rule is that the "hostile and abusive" logos can't exist at NCAA post-season events. Not simply that the "offending" school can't display, but that it shouldn't be displayed AT ALL. The NCAA shouldn't have awarded the regional to The X if they were going to display Sioux logos. By doing so they are being even more hypocritical. Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 If that's the case, then REA certainly shouldn't have to remove a single Sioux head from the entire arena. REA isn't owned by UND anymore than Xcel is owned by UM. The rule is that the "hostile and abusive" logos can't exist at NCAA post-season events. Not simply that the "offending" school can't display, but that it shouldn't be displayed AT ALL. The NCAA shouldn't have awarded the regional to The X if they were going to display Sioux logos. By doing so they are being even more hypocritical. First, REA doesn't legally have to do anything. But if they don't they wouldn't be able to host NCAA tournament events. The NCAA has said that some of the logos would be able to stay, REA just doesn't want to remove any of them. That is an issue for REA and the NCAA to work out to see if they can come to a compromise. But there is no case where all of the logos have to be removed, even the NCAA hasn't gone that far. Second, you're comparing apples to oranges. A better comparison would be selling Fighting Sioux stuff in the Sioux Shop compared to Xcel selling stuff in a concessions area. Logos on the wall and seats are completely different. But even then it isn't quite a direct comparison because UND would have a regular on-going relationship on a day-to-day basis with REA versus a single event contract with Xcel. Third, the rule is that the school can't use the nickname and logo. And the NCAA won't use the nickname and logo for any of their materials. But there is no rule that states the nicknames and logos can't be on display any place in the arena. If there were such a rule than fans couldn't wear the logo. Quote
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