Alumni Association begins campaign against nickname

[Goon]

Actually, I respect Hakstol a great deal...as a hockey coach. But, his divisive behavior on this issue has been unacceptable, and he hasn't been held accountable.

I am not sure what you're suggesting?

When it comes to this issue, he's the pink elephant in the living room that nobody has the guts to talk about. Hakstol has said nothing at this point publicly to make anyone think he has changed his position in the slightest way. If anything, his silence is evidence of his still not backing the overall interests of UND and all of UND athletics as a whole.

I am not sure he is required to make a stance on the issue. I also wonder if the coaches might have been told to remain quite on the issue and not say anything at all.

[petey23]

Actually, I respect Hakstol a great deal...as a hockey coach. But, his divisive behavior on this issue has been unacceptable, and he hasn't been held accountable. Last time I checked, he doesn't let his players get away with a lack of accoutability, and neither should he. I'm just telling it like it is. When it comes to this issue, he's the pink elephant in the living room that nobody has the guts to talk about. Hakstol has said nothing at this point publicly to make anyone think he has changed his position in the slightest way. If anything, his silence is evidence of his still not backing the overall interests of UND and all of UND athletics as a whole.

I would take his silence on this issue as a strong sign that he is absolutely backing the overall interests of UND Athletics vs. speaking up and voicing his true opinion of this matter.

[iramurphy]

Very astute points and couldn't agree more. All that the bungling by the SBoHE did was create a very credible basis for concluding that the "stakeholders" never had any intention to participate in and effectuate the terms of the surrender agreement in good faith. There was some solid support at SR and there were a few Tribal Council members sitting on the fence who could have been persuaded in favor of the nickname and logo. Archie and Steve Fool Bear and Antoine American Horse could tell you that. If you remember, (I can't locate it online and I am, therefore, paraphrasing here) SR basically asked the SBoHE and UND what their intentions were concerning the nickname and I believe that this was even after the May, 2009 fiasco following the SL vote. The UND Admininstration has wanted the name gone from day one of the surrender agreement and the surrender agreement itself was nothing more than a festooned 3 year "cooling off period" or buffer where half-assed attempts would be made and then everyone would just throw up their hands and would assume, by that time, that people would have just gotten used to the idea that the name would be gone. I can't believe that educated people could not make all of this less transparent, at least, and it's pretty difficult to believe that they really even tried to get approval or even that it was all just good faith bungling.

One might argue that UND didn't do enough but it is a fact that UND and SBoHE officials were stonewalled by His Horse is Thunder and other Tribal Officials when the SBoHE was still trying to keep the name. I can't tell you if they attempted to speak with individuals or just the Triabl Chair but there were efforts made. Easy to say now all it would have taken was UND to find these people "sitting on the fence" and convince them They had every opportunity to call for a meeting of the Tribal Council with UND and every opportunity to speak out publically in favor of gathering more information. I would guess there is more that people at UND and other name supporters could have done but to say if only UND sould have ......... doesn't cut it. There are a lot of things supporters at SR and SL could have done to move the process ahead on their end too. Bottome line, we are where we are. The SR people can still step up to the plate and be counted. It is their reservation and their tribal council. Should they be inclined I still believe if they join with SL they could make a difference with the NCAA. The legislature and UND don't seem to be able to and this new attempt at legislation doesn't hold any promise with respects to moving the NCAA off of their position..

[Benny Baker]

I am not sure what you're suggesting?

I am not sure he is required to make a stance on the issue. I also wonder if the coaches might have been told to remain quite on the issue and not say anything at all.

Or maybe he hasn't bought into the sky is falling mentality yet. From a hockey standpoint, let's he honest. UND is secure in their conference. UND will never host home NCAA playoff games. The decision to discontinue the rivalry with Minnesota and Wisconsin are Minnesota and Wisconsin's alone. UND wants to continue the rivalry; the Big Ten schools apparently do not. Please spare me from the "but it is UND's decision! Only if the bowed down to the demands of the NCAA then the games would be back one" comments.

[GeauxSioux]

Or maybe he hasn't bought into the sky is falling mentality yet. From a hockey standpoint, let's he honest. UND is secure in their conference. UND will never host home NCAA playoff games. The decision to discontinue the rivalry with Minnesota and Wisconsin are Minnesota and Wisconsin's alone. UND wants to continue the rivalry; the Big Ten schools apparently do not. Please spare me from the "but it is UND's decision! Only if the bowed down to the demands of the NCAA then the games would be back one" comments.

The NCAA is now using off-campus venues for men's hockey. Do we know what they will be doing 5 years from now? To say that UND will never host home NCAA mens hockey playoff games is questionable.

The women might be in a position to host NCAA playoff hockey this year.

UND will likely host NCAA playoff games in football. That is, if UND is removed from sanctions.

[Benny Baker]

The NCAA is now using off-campus venues for men's hockey. Do we know what they will be doing 5 years from now? To say that UND will never host home NCAA mens hockey playoff games is questionable.

The women might be in a position to host NCAA playoff hockey this year.

UND will likely host NCAA playoff games in football. That is, if UND is removed from sanctions.

I agree with everything you say. But as it stands now, Hak doesn't coach the women's team, he doesn't coach the football team, not does the NCAA allow for home playoff games hockey.

[GeauxSioux]

I agree with everything you say. But as it stands now, Hak doesn't coach the women's team, he doesn't coach the football team, not does the NCAA allow for home playoff games hockey.

But he is a part of the athletic department, which has to think of the big picture and not just men's hockey.

[The Sicatoka]

... see Fiason, Okeef, Kelly, Dahl speak of weapons of Mass Destruction.

I think you mean Faison, O'Keefe, Kelley, but who the heck is Dahl?

[GeauxSioux]

I think you mean Faison, O'Keefe, Kelley, but who the heck is Dahl?

Dahl is choosing not to run for re-election in her UND district. Just guessing, as to he is talking about.

[Benny Baker]

But he is a part of the athletic department, which has to think of the big picture and not just men's hockey.

Agreed that this is the more pragmatic approach to take, but like I suggested, perhaps Hakstol doesn't care. He knows that hockey is king at UND. If so, I would be inclined to agree with him that as it stands now, NCAA sanctions will have very little effect on the hockey program.

[ScottM]

I think you mean Faison, O'Keefe, Kelley, but who the heck is Dahl?

Craig Dahl. You know he's always had it in for UND ... especially since his teams generally sucked.

[UNDColorado]

Agreed that this is the more pragmatic approach to take, but like I suggested, perhaps Hakstol doesn't care. He knows that hockey is king at UND. If so, I would be inclined to agree with him that as it stands now, NCAA sanctions will have very little effect on the hockey program.

You don't seem to understand that this is about athletics as a whole. You also don't seem to understand collegiate scheduling in that schedules aren't done by the ncaa; they are done by individual institutions using their connections and ties. UND Hockey will be negatively affected by these sanctions even if ncaa hockey playoffs are at off-site locations. Recruiting will suffer in the long run as well. You need to think about the long run here and not be so short-sighted.

[ScottM]

Agreed that this is the more pragmatic approach to take, but like I suggested, perhaps Hakstol doesn't care. He knows that hockey is king at UND. If so, I would be inclined to agree with him that as it stands now, NCAA sanctions will have very little effect on the hockey program.

How much money does UND make when Wisconsin or Minnesota play at REA? "King" or not, Hakstol is probably very cognizant of the potential impacts sanctions could have on his program.

[RD17]

Sorry Friend, athletic martyrdom is NOT paramount to "all costs".

To gets past the rhetoric of comparing the two one must first define "athletic martyrdom"

and I'm guessing you and I would have a hard time agreeing there.

Second, even your Big-Sky-is-falling extremist take on the result of athletic martyrdom does not justify "at ALL costs" claims.

It is simply a Divisive hyperbolic suggestion used to manipulate emotions and to give a pejorative impression of those whole you oppose.

It is really quite pathetic watching people succumb to fear and reduce themselves to this mentality.

It reminds me of the way people were 10 years ago when we invaded Iraq. To suggest that we should not be doing that was paramount to not being a patriot and/or not supporting the troops. It is truly an insanity that arises from a state of fear. A mental state where one suspends reasonabilty due to the anxiety associated with a challenging situation and further perpetuated when our leadership exhibit the same behavior, see Fiason, Okeef, Kelly, Dahl speak of weapons of Mass Destruction.

Do you live in some sort of alternative reality? This was your exact statement in regard to "athletic martyrdom":

Martyrdom is a better place that cowardice. Even in the unlikely event the schools athletics all go up in burning flames and NDSU (who gives a crap school) gets to be the predominant division one football force in North Dakota, we can all go USC for the Rose Bowl and watch the Bison beat Oklahoma and tell our grandkids about the history of the fighting Sioux and the fascists that stole it from us.

Statements like this one are just patent foolishness. Anyone that would rather have the athletic department go up in burning flames (again your words) to prove a point to the "fascists" is someone that is so clueless on this issue that it is laughable.

And you trying to paint me as a Big Sky is falling extremist is laughable as well. Care to point out where I have stated that I am concerned about UND being kicked out of the Big Sky? You won't find it. When I post I like to debate the actual real words someone has written here, not something I dreamed up.

[Benny Baker]

You don't seem to understand that this is about athletics as a whole. You also don't seem to understand collegiate scheduling in that schedules aren't done by the ncaa; they are done by individual institutions using their connections and ties. UND Hockey will be negatively affected by these sanctions even if ncaa hockey playoffs are at off-site locations. Recruiting will suffer in the long run as well. You need to think about the long run here and not be so short-sighted.

You don't seem to understand that I was simply responding to questions about why Hakstol hasn't finally come out and said that retirement is necessary.

When the nickname was retired, Minnesota wouldn't committ to playing UND. So yes, Wisconsin is a loss for sure. But beyond that, I haven't seen any significant detriments to the hockey program.

Now on a personal note. I don't believe North Dakota hockey recruiting will suffer AT ALL. Hockey recruits will come to UND because it's the University of North Dakota hockey, not because of a nickname. The great Gopher himself, Herb Brooks, told Zach Parise to go to UND because it was the best program to prepare him for the NHL, not because of a nickname.

Yes, other programs will be hurt far more than hockey. But, I was once told by UND's administration that the nickname law will encourage the NCAA to change their position. I'm not going to take them at their word that hockey recruiting will be harmed, no one will play us, etc. until there is more proof beyond their own words. Thus far, the evidence that hockey recruiting will be harmed is based upon statements that hockey recruiting will be harmed.

[CAS4127]

You don't seem to understand that I was simply responding to questions about why Hakstol hasn't finally come out and said that retirement is necessary.

When the nickname was retired, Minnesota wouldn't committ to playing UND. So yes, Wisconsin is a loss for sure. But beyond that, I haven't seen any significant detriments to the hockey program.

Now on a personal note. I don't believe North Dakota hockey recruiting will suffer AT ALL. Hockey recruits will come to UND because it's the University of North Dakota hockey, not because of a nickname. The great Gopher himself, Herb Brooks, told Zach Parise to go to UND because it was the best program to prepare him for the NHL, not because of a nickname.

Yes, other programs will be hurt far more than hockey. But, I was once told by UND's administration that the nickname law will encourage the NCAA to change their position. I'm not going to take them at their word that hockey recruiting will be harmed, no one will play us, etc. until there is more proof beyond their own words. Thus far, the evidence that hockey recruiting will be harmed is based upon statements that hockey recruiting will be harmed.

Have you bothered to consider that Brooks likely said that in large part because of the level of competition UND plays coupled with facilities and coaching??!!! Now, if neither UofM or Wisky is on the schedule, and possibly other teams, what does that do to the level of UND's competition year in and year out??!!! Maybe results in UND not being the best place to prepare for the NHL ya think??!!!!

Just my non-hockey .02.

[Benny Baker]

Have you bothered to consider that Brooks likely said that in large part because of the level of competition UND plays coupled with facilities and coaching??!!! Now, if neither UofM or Wisky is on the schedule, and possibly other teams, what does that do to the level of UND's competition year in and year out??!!! Maybe results in UND not being the best place to prepare for the NHL ya think??!!!!

Just my non-hockey .02.

Oh come one, have you bothered to consider that what you said was entirely speculation and, therefore, not grounded in truth nor fact?

So recruits won't come to UND because of the lack of games against Minnesota and Wisconsin? Seems to be more of a conference realignment issue than a nickname one.

Like I said, Minnesota wouldn't even committ to playing UND, whether the team's name was "Fighting Sioux" or not. I can't believe you're suggesting that no longer having Minnesota and Wisconsin on UND's schedules for 4-6 games a year would destroy UND's competition to such a degree despite games against Denver, Colorado College, Miami, last year's national champion and all those other teams they've been playing every year in college hockey's premiere conference. Besides, competition ebbs and flows. Wisconsin is second to last in the WCHA right now. Go see how many of the UofM hockey players have enjoyed playing and winning in the national tournament like UND. You may have to wait until the end of March though, because the tough competition down there in the cities hasn't made the national tournament since 2008.

[The Sicatoka]

You're focused on hockey. Ask Coach Mussman and his staff what recruits ask about. It's conference and playoffs.

[CAS4127]

@BBaker: You said:

"Oh come one, have you bothered to consider that what you said was entirely speculation and, therefore, not grounded in truth nor fact?"

in response to me saying this:

"Have you bothered to consider that Brooks likely said that in large part because of the level of competition UND plays coupled with facilities and coaching??!!!"

Well, then, then give me some truth and fact as to the basis of Brooks' statement?Mine seems pretty plausible-->your's gave me nothing. And I am talking about the reason or reasons Brooks would have said that. Let's hear the truth and fact, as I am sure you heard it right from his mouth prior to him passing away!!!

[UNDColorado]

You don't seem to understand that I was simply responding to questions about why Hakstol hasn't finally come out and said that retirement is necessary.

When the nickname was retired, Minnesota wouldn't committ to playing UND. So yes, Wisconsin is a loss for sure. But beyond that, I haven't seen any significant detriments to the hockey program.

Now on a personal note. I don't believe North Dakota hockey recruiting will suffer AT ALL. Hockey recruits will come to UND because it's the University of North Dakota hockey, not because of a nickname. The great Gopher himself, Herb Brooks, told Zach Parise to go to UND because it was the best program to prepare him for the NHL, not because of a nickname.

Yes, other programs will be hurt far more than hockey. But, I was once told by UND's administration that the nickname law will encourage the NCAA to change their position. I'm not going to take them at their word that hockey recruiting will be harmed, no one will play us, etc. until there is more proof beyond their own words. Thus far, the evidence that hockey recruiting will be harmed is based upon statements that hockey recruiting will be harmed.

Do you honestly think they will back down to a little school in North Dakota? To my point- Minnesota will not schedule us either if we are still on sanctions; that is a cold hard fact. If we can't play them in non-conference that will hurt us in the long run. Also, prior to us going back to Fighting Sioux Faison or Hak was on record saying they were working with Minnesota to get them on future schedules. That has since stopped.

[UND1983]

You're focused on hockey. Ask Coach Mussman and his staff what recruits ask about. It's conference and playoffs.

BINGO!

[The Sicatoka]

But, I was once told by UND's administration that the nickname law will encourage the NCAA to change their position.

Seriously? Who?

[Benny Baker]

Do you honestly think they will back down to a little school in North Dakota? To my point- Minnesota will not schedule us either if we are still on sanctions; that is a cold hard fact. If we can't play them in non-conference that will hurt us in the long run. Also, prior to us going back to Fighting Sioux Faison or Hak was on record saying they were working with Minnesota to get them on future schedules. That has since stopped.

You're barking up the wrong tree. It was the state and university administration, who said the NCAA would change their tune if the law was passed. Hakstol said he's left the schedule open for Minnesota games. When pressed about it, Lucia was noncommital. Remember, they've aleady signed up for nonconference games against Notre Dame and the Minnesota tournament they're doing. Beyond that, we know Minnesota hardly ever travels outside of Mariucci for nonconference games.

The schedule is still open. It's Minnesota's choice whether they play UND or not.

Indeed, I am focusing on hockey. You're observations are correct.

[Benny Baker]

Seriously? Who?

Grant Shaft. My bad, he's not an UND administrator. Possible that Kelley and Faison echoed his sentiments, but don't know.

[Bison Dan]

You're barking up the wrong tree. It was the state and university administration, who said the NCAA would change their tune if the law was passed. Hakstol said he's left the schedule open for Minnesota games. When pressed about it, Lucia was noncommital. Remember, they've aleady signed up for nonconference games against Notre Dame and the Minnesota tournament they're doing. Beyond that, we know Minnesota hardly ever travels outside of Mariucci for nonconference games.

The schedule is still open. It's Minnesota's choice whether they play UND or not.

Indeed, I am focusing on hockey. You're observations are correct.

If you actually think that not playing MN and Wiskey in hockey doesn't hurt your program you're living under a tree. It has already hurt your football program as it's the only school in both Dakota's that hasn't played a couple of B10 teams during the transition. NDSU has sent over 80,000 fans to the Twin Cities for the Gopher games and most everyone thought it was a hoot and a big plus for the program. Playing all those D2 and D3 schools in hockey are not what the UND fans that pay the high price tickets are looking for. Without MN and WI a couple of bad years and you'll see.