Petitions

[ScottM]

Ron His Horse Is Thunder thanks you for supporting his side of the argument.

Where was Ron a few years ago when it actually mattered?

[Chewey]

Um, yeah. UND did fight in 2007 and eventually agreed to the settlement surrender agreement. And it fought probably more aggressively than most schools would have. Where was Spirit Lake, and Clueless Al and Reed Soderstrom then? When the fight was most important all of these newfound fans of the Sioux name were nowhere to be found. Their self-indulgent opportunism does nothing for the school, as oppposed to their own bloated egos. F**k them.

I'm sure some of them donated to the law suit, as I did. I'm sure some of them, as I did, actually believed that the SBoHE and the school administration would act in good faith vis-a-vis the surrender agreement instead of seeing it as a 3 year buffer period to get people used to the idea that the name would be gone. Instead, we get the duplicity and outright equivocation tactics of Goetz, Shaft, Kelley, Faison and the SBoHE. When it became apparent that this is exactly what was happening, there was the vote on SL and then we saw this duplicity further accentuated by the SBoHE in speeding up the retirement process. Irrespective of the funny speak of Goetz, Brand and Harrison about how Native Americans should have a say on usage of the nickname and logo, none of tribes were signatories to the surrender agreement and none were deposed during the litigation. Now, the parties to the litigation who should have brought the tribes in and made them parties to any final surrender agreement but never did are blaming the tribes and are asking "where were the tribes?" I would not view what has been happening as "self-indulgent opportunism." Rather, particularly with respect to the Native Americans, it's more akin to witnessing bad faith and duplicity and doing something about it. What Kelley, Shaft and the SBoHE should do is state publicly that there will be no nickname during the cooling off period, that the teams will not be referred to as the "Fighting Sioux" during that period but other than that it will be status quo, and that the nickname and logo will be assumed if any litigation is successful. The litigation is why there was a 3 year cooling off period. The 3 year cooling off period was essential in getting the legislation passed. From what I understand, this was suggested by some higher ups in the Alumni Association so that the legislation would pass. The petition process is not contradictory, especially if many of those signatures come from SR and SL. If Kelley, SBoHE and the NCAA and a two-councilperson majority on the SR Tribal Council preventing a vote on SR will not accept the fact that a majority of NA's support the nickname and logo, one avenue is the petition process.

[watchmaker49]

Um, yeah. UND did fight in 2007 and eventually agreed to the settlement surrender agreement. And it fought probably more aggressively than most schools would have. Where was Spirit Lake, and Clueless Al and Reed Soderstrom then? When the fight was most important all of these newfound fans of the Sioux name were nowhere to be found. Their self-indulgent opportunism does nothing for the school, as oppposed to their own bloated egos. F**k them.

Your continual histrionics about the isolationism, the Vichy French and selected media stories are better suited to Say Anything than any reasonable legal argument. Neither the Board nor UND will never make any additional arguments to keep the Sioux moniker. Soderstrom is playing both sides of the fence with his litigation on behalf of SL and his position behind the petitions since those "rights" to the Sioux moniker are in opposition to each other. Hopefully, the NC$$'s lawyers use that "conflict" in their defense, as if they really need any more ammunition.

This shows why you work in corporate law and he works in a little town doing trusts and wills.

[watchmaker49]

Now is the time to fight the NCAA. The stars are aligned correctly - bad press from several corners, public references to the NCAA by families of athletes, coaches, U.S. Representatives as the Gestapo and the Mafia, a tribe who is supposedly a beneficiary of an asinine policy suing the NCAA over that policy and over anti-trust claims, etc. If you're so interested in taking down the monster and helping UND and retaining the nickname and logo, then go circulate some petitions. It is not the time for pusillanimity. WTF you guys? So, the NCAA could "retaliate", even in the middle of an anti-trust lawsuit? Really? It's either right or it's not, as the below article illustrates. It's either abusive or it's not, as the below article indicates. You either have backbone to oppose this crap or you don't and you live with a bully's ongoing destructive antics. Many of you would have fit quite nicely in 1930's isolationist America. So, the coin of the realm is that it's ok for a tribe to be disrespected as long as that same bully - for now - does not assault us? It's ok for someone else to get beaten up and I can watch and do nothing and feel ok about it just as long as that bully does not touch me? Indeed, if it did who would be there to help you. Certainly, some other person abiding by the same reasoning would be of no help. It really does not take a lot to see how craven and insipid this position is.

http://www.nytimes.c...d.html?emc=eta1

"So long as schools continue to cower in the face of N.C.A.A. abuses, those abuses will continue.

The Temi Fagbenle case was a perfect opportunity for Harvard to stand up for what’s right. Maybe next time."

Many could learn from this and much good and timely corrective action would be obtained, if people listened to and followed this sage advice. You never stop fighting against this. Otherwise, go join the ranks of the Vichy French. Standing by and doing nothing is tantamount to collaboration, in my opinion. It's collaboration by inaction.

I don't see you using your law degree to help out any. You keep saying stand up and fight but you do not seem to be fighting yourself though, typical GOP style. As the saying goes, "put up or shut up".

[fightingsioux4life]

Ron His Horse Is Thunder thanks you for supporting his side of the argument.

[ScottM]

The petition process is not contradictory, especially if many of those signatures come from SR and SL. If Kelley, SBoHE and the NCAA and a two-councilperson majority on the SR Tribal Council preventing a vote on SR will not accept the fact that a majority of NA's support the nickname and logo, one avenue is the petition process.

Sure it is. SL needs to establish a right, such as a property right, that is in danger in order attain standing under Lujan. The petitions, if they were fully enacted as law would effectively strip that right, if it exists now or in the future from SL and give it to the state. If the stars fully aligned, and by some miracle SL actually won its case or got the NC$$ to back off its H&A nonsense, they would then have to fight the state to fully own it.

And let's not engage in the level of hypocrisy of the NC$$, nobody really gives damn about "respect" for NAs in this fight. This so-called "respect" is effectively making NAs pawns, again, to powers they cannot control. Many of those who trot out "respect" and "rights" for NAs are probably the same people who refer to them as "prairie niggers" or "wagon burners" in private conversations and jokes with their drinking buddies.

[watchmaker49]

Sure it is. SL needs to establish a right, such as a property right, that is in danger in order attain standing under Lujan. The petitions, if they were fully enacted as law would effectively strip that right, if it exists now or in the future from SL and give it to the state. If the stars fully aligned, and by some miracle SL actually won its case or got the NC$$ to back off its H&A nonsense, they would then have to fight the state to fully own it.

And let's not engage in the level of hypocrisy of the NC$$, nobody really gives damn about "respect" for NAs in this fight. This so-called "respect" is effectively making NAs pawns, again, to powers they cannot control. Many of those who trot out "respect" and "rights" for NAs are probably the same people who refer to them as "prairie niggers" or "wagon burners" in private conversations and jokes with their drinking buddies.

What I have been saying for years. If Eunice or any of them went the other way they would be the bad NAs and would get attacked just like Longie gets attacked. The only good indian is a logo supporter.

[Chewey]

This shows why you work in corporate law and he works in a little town doing trusts and wills.

Of c

I don't see you using your law degree to help out any. You keep saying stand up and fight but you do not seem to be fighting yourself though, typical GOP style. As the saying goes, "put up or shut up".

Ah, and "vapid" personified joins the conversation. The last thing I'd be is a member of the GOP and I haven't dealt with a trust or will since Al Bott's class so there's another swing and a miss.

[Chewey]

Sure it is. SL needs to establish a right, such as a property right, that is in danger in order attain standing under Lujan. The petitions, if they were fully enacted as law would effectively strip that right, if it exists now or in the future from SL and give it to the state. If the stars fully aligned, and by some miracle SL actually won its case or got the NC$$ to back off its H&A nonsense, they would then have to fight the state to fully own it.

And let's not engage in the level of hypocrisy of the NC$$, nobody really gives damn about "respect" for NAs in this fight. This so-called "respect" is effectively making NAs pawns, again, to powers they cannot control. Many of those who trot out "respect" and "rights" for NAs are probably the same people who refer to them as "prairie niggers" or "wagon burners" in private conversations and jokes with their drinking buddies.

And, just how do you know. It certainly seems as if you're engaging in the very hypocrisy you seem to criticize by presuming that the NA's are just "pawns." The SL Tribal Council are not pawns and neither are the members of the Committee for Understanding and Respect. The plug could be pulled by them at any time. Like it or not and believe it or not, they are the ones moving this. :You presume much and are inclined to cynicism about people you know nothing about and that's unfortunate. You're entitled to that cynicism, of course, and I certainly understand your points. Regardless of your conclusions as to the petition process, lawsuit, etc, you're dead wrong as to your other conclusions. I would expect usage of the terms "prairie niggers" and "wagon burners" some someone as opaque and cognitively benumbed as Watchmaker or his cynical compatriots at BRIDGES who have trotted those terms (and worse) out and claimed "racism" only to have self-serving claims not supported by one shred of documentation but it is a bit of a surprise to see someone as yourself engage them.

The Native Americans in this process have not been "pawns." They've been people who have not been engaged at all in the process and they've been people who have spoken but have not been listened to. Isn't it a cynicism on your part to conclude and presume that the NA's could be nothing but pawns in this process? I acknowledge your insights as the the various legal merits but you're dead wrong on the others.

[Hayduke]

Of c

Ah, and "vapid" personified joins the conversation. The last thing I'd be is a member of the GOP and I haven't dealt with a trust or will since Al Bott's class so there's another swing and a miss.

Bingo.

As a card carrying member of the ACLU and a nickname supporter (although, I only see the issue resolved through the courts with the SL tribe) I don't understand why those on the extreme left and right feel this is an entirely political issue. Granted, I would say most of the opponents lean left and many supporters lean right, it's not a straight left wing/right wing issue.

Also, Chewey, have you changed your mind and decided now that we have to strike while the iron is hot against the NCAA? Or has that been your opinion for awhile? Just wondering.

[Chewey]

Bingo.

As a card carrying member of the ACLU and a nickname supporter (although, I only see the issue resolved through the courts with the SL tribe) I don't understand why those on the extreme left and right feel this is an entirely political issue. Granted, I would say most of the opponents lean left and many supporters lean right, it's not a straight left wing/right wing issue.

Also, Chewey, have you changed your mind and decided now that we have to strike while the iron is hot against the NCAA? Or has that been your opinion for awhile? Just wondering.

I've always thought that the NCAA should be in the crosshairs (for those so inclined -- see Watchmaker -- I don't mean that literally. It's entirely metaphorical and people do use things like metaphors when writing or even speaking) legally, ethically, etc since the start but I don't believe that is the only villain in this process. And, for those who think I'm stupid enough to be a card carrying GOP supporter (I guess who would be bored enough to really care in the first place), I'm a longtime member of PETA and ASPCA (although I really like Ted Nugent). Maybe Watchmaker will now go check the roles of those groups to scour for attorneys who are also members.

[Hayduke]

I've always thought that the NCAA should be in the crosshairs (for those so inclined -- see Watchmaker -- I don't mean that literally. It's entirely metaphorical and people do use things like metaphors when writing or even speaking) legally, ethically, etc since the start but I don't believe that is the only villain in this process. And, for those who think I'm stupid enough to be a card carrying GOP supporter (I guess who would be bored enough to really care in the first place), I'm a longtime member of PETA and ASPCA (although I really like Ted Nugent). Maybe Watchmaker will now go check the roles of those groups to scour for attorneys who are also members.

I think whatever embarrasses the NCAA is good enough for me. Although I am an ACLU member, I also am a member of the NRA. I'm a Bill of Rights kinda guy.

[Goon]

I think whatever embarrasses the NCAA is good enough for me. Although I am an ACLU member, I also am a member of the NRA. I'm a Bill of Rights kinda guy.

I was a NRA member until they went and supported a bunch of poltical candidates that I didn't care for and I decided to not renew my number, I joined GOA instead.

[watchmaker49]

I've always thought that the NCAA should be in the crosshairs (for those so inclined -- see Watchmaker -- I don't mean that literally. It's entirely metaphorical and people do use things like metaphors when writing or even speaking) legally, ethically, etc since the start but I don't believe that is the only villain in this process. And, for those who think I'm stupid enough to be a card carrying GOP supporter (I guess who would be bored enough to really care in the first place), I'm a longtime member of PETA and ASPCA (although I really like Ted Nugent). Maybe Watchmaker will now go check the roles of those groups to scour for attorneys who are also members.

Did not say that you supported the GOP once. I said that your actions were of the same sort as the GOP uses.

[UNDBIZ]

Now is the time to fight the NCAA. The stars are aligned correctly - bad press from several corners, public references to the NCAA by families of athletes, coaches, U.S. Representatives as the Gestapo and the Mafia, a tribe who is supposedly a beneficiary of an asinine policy suing the NCAA over that policy and over anti-trust claims, etc. If you're so interested in taking down the monster and helping UND and retaining the nickname and logo, then go circulate some petitions. It is not the time for pusillanimity. WTF you guys? So, the NCAA could "retaliate", even in the middle of an anti-trust lawsuit? Really? It's either right or it's not, as the below article illustrates. It's either abusive or it's not, as the below article indicates. You either have backbone to oppose this crap or you don't and you live with a bully's ongoing destructive antics. Many of you would have fit quite nicely in 1930's isolationist America. So, the coin of the realm is that it's ok for a tribe to be disrespected as long as that same bully - for now - does not assault us? It's ok for someone else to get beaten up and I can watch and do nothing and feel ok about it just as long as that bully does not touch me? Indeed, if it did who would be there to help you. Certainly, some other person abiding by the same reasoning would be of no help. It really does not take a lot to see how craven and insipid this position is.

http://www.nytimes.c...d.html?emc=eta1

"So long as schools continue to cower in the face of N.C.A.A. abuses, those abuses will continue.

The Temi Fagbenle case was a perfect opportunity for Harvard to stand up for what’s right. Maybe next time."

Many could learn from this and much good and timely corrective action would be obtained, if people listened to and followed this sage advice. You never stop fighting against this. Otherwise, go join the ranks of the Vichy French. Standing by and doing nothing is tantamount to collaboration, in my opinion. It's collaboration by inaction.

Handicapping UND with the petitions/laws is not the way to fight the NC$$ because the NC$$ does not care about little North Dakota's laws. Good luck to SL with the lawsuit, as that (or convincing the SR council to approve the name) is the only way anything is going to change with respect to the NC$$.

[darell1976]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/227961/

North Dakota's secretary of state says people who sign ballot measure petitions should make sure the petition carrier sees them do it.

Al Jaeger says he's heard reports of petitions being left unattended for people to sign. Jaeger says that's against the law, and signatures on those petitions may not be counted

Something tells me that even they do get the signatures... the state will do what they can to see this thing not get on the ballot.

[GeauxSioux]

This statement makes me believe even more that the group pushing the petition is completely and utterly clueless....

“There’s been some of that” expressed to petition circulators, Johnson said, but nickname supporters respond that UND has been granted Big Sky membership “and they need UND more than UND needs the Big Sky.”

[Let'sGoHawks!]

This statement makes me believe even more that the group pushing the petition is completely and utterly clueless....

I read it and thought the same thing right away.

[homer]

What sums it up for me is that he is actually suprised they had great success at a Bison football game. You think Bison fans would have any interest in something that was going to help UND?

[ScottM]

What sums it up for me is that he is actually suprised they had great success at a Bison football game. You think Bison fans would have any interest in something that was going to help UND?

Perhaps he attended 'su ...

[UNDBIZ]

The guy running the petition signing table in the state capital building today was wearing the ugliest baby-poo green and piss yellow bison jacket I've ever seen.

[darell1976]

Of course NDSU fans will sign it they want to get rid of UND athletics.

[bincitysioux]

The only reason they had great success at a Bison football game is because Bison fans are dumb enough to believe the myth that this will actually hurt UND.

If it all went through and passed into law, this would hurt UND.............................

[Cratter]

Yeah the fans will get mad cause the teams suck.

[darell1976]

...and, yes, some Sioux fans have fallen for it too. I understand that nothing I tell you now will change your mind, so therefore I will just say "wait and see". When the time comes I'll be first in line to say "I told you so".

And vice versa when Doug Fullerton calls up Faison and says "here's the boot".