Benny Baker Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I would not characterize the quoted section as giving UND a "choice". I believe it's merely describing what would happen if UND breached the Agreement, which of course is what Carlson's statute caused UND to do. Which brings us back to Art. I, Sec. 18 again... Fair enough. But given the long-standing principal that courts will adopt every presumption in favor of law's constitutionality, I see the Supreme Court reading the settlement agreement as a choice and, therefore, the legislation was not in breach thereof. Moreover, I'm still not convinced that this even falls under the contracts clause, because the Court in Davidson said that the settlement merged into the final jugment so that the settlement will be interpreted and enforced as a final judgment and not as a separate contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySioux Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I would not characterize the quoted section as giving UND a "choice". I believe it's merely describing what would happen if UND breached the Agreement, which of course is what Carlson's statute caused UND to do. Which brings us back to Art. I, Sec. 18 again... IMO this is right, UND "Will adopt a new nickname" if they do not get namesake approval. The presence of a remedy in the contract should have no bearing. UND's obligations under the agreement were most certainly impaired by a new statute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS4127 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Fair enough. But given the long-standing principal that courts will adopt every presumption in favor of law's constitutionality, I see the Supreme Court reading the settlement agreement as a choice and, therefore, the legislation was not in breach thereof. Moreover, I'm still not convinced that this even falls under the contracts clause, because the Court in Davidson said that the settlement merged into the final jugment so that the settlement will be interpreted and enforced as a final judgment and not as a separate contract. The ND Supreme Court will be addressing Carlson's law relative to the ND Constitution, not the settlement agreement. IMO this is right, UND "Will adopt a new nickname" if they do not get namesake approval. The presence of a remedy in the contract should have no bearing. UND's obligations under the agreement were most certainly impaired by a new statute. That's arguable. Pursuant to the terms of the agreement, UND was to have obtained tribal approval by November 30, 2010-->that didn't happen. The name was to be retired by August 15, 2011 if approval was not obtained. In short, I think it was "game over" as of November 30, 2010 as far as the NCAA was or is concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 That's arguable. Pursuant to the terms of the agreement, UND was to have obtained tribal approval by November 30, 2010-->that didn't happen. The name was to be retired by August 15, 2011 if approval was not obtained. In short, I think it was "game over" as of November 30, 2010 as far as the NCAA was or is concerned. Tell that to this guy... I know, I know, FSU got the OK from the Seminole Tribe in Florida. But UND has twice gotten the blessing of the Standing Rock to use the ‘Fighting Sioux’ name in perpetuity. Couple that with a 67 percent affirmative vote from the Spirit Lake in 2009 and UND clearly has the permission and blessing of both Sioux Tribes to use the nickname. Why won’t the NCAA recognize this? Other questions also need answers. Why has the NCAA ignored the Spirit Lake Sioux to the point where a lawsuit had to be filed to get their attention? Would the NCAA treat UND differently if it had a big-time basketball or football program? Has this now become a battle of wills between the NCAA and the good people of North Dakota? If so, how much harm is the NCAA willing to inflict on our student athletes to prove it won’t back down? How much pressure is the NCAA putting on other schools not to schedule UND? It seems odd that schools who’ve played us for decades are now suddenly all worked up about a nickname. This issue has gone on so long that I find it hard to believe that people don't understand the settlement. No written approval from both tribes by November 30, 2010 ----> "Game over" is about as concise as it gets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 It's kind of curious that if this issue was such a sore point for so many people in the past, that they are now willing to handicap UND athletics, why are the politicos like Conrad, Hoeven, et al. continually re-elected? And the AG Stenjhem has been in office since 2001 and has been re-elected a few times. Odd ... Is this issue on the agenda for the congressional elections? Since the feds have the only real power to bring the NC$$ to heel, you have to wonder about the true motivations of Carlson, Hennen, Soderstrom, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 It's kind of curious that if this issue was such a sore point for so many people in the past, that they are now willing to handicap UND athletics, why are the politicos like Conrad, Hoeven, et al. continually re-elected? And the AG Stenjhem has been in office since 2001 and has been re-elected a few times. Odd ... Is this issue on the agenda for the congressional elections? Since the feds have the only real power to bring the NC$$ to heel, you have to wonder about the true motivations of Carlson, Hennen, Soderstrom, etc. I was told by an aid to Congressman Berg that you won't see Berg get involved in this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I was told by an aid to Congressman Berg that you won't see Berg get involved in this... This is Clueless Al's great moment to seize greater political power, feed his bloated ego, eviscerate the NC$$ on C-SPAN and "save" the Sioux moniker for UND or SL, or something! *cue "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchmaker49 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I was told by an aid to Congressman Berg that you won't see Berg get involved in this... Because Berg is more interested in collecting pet deposits from people, who by law, do not need to pay them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Cue Clueless AL this summer running for Dog Catcher for the City of Fargo. He is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Ponder the following: Al Carlson vows to fight to keep a law that the Legislature itself decided needed to be repealed and did repeal overwhelmingly. How does that even make sense? It only makes sense from the standpoint that it triggered the constitutional crisis that Al wanted all along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Can the voters "recall" Clueless Al? Maybe that's a worthwhile petition ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 This is Clueless Al's great moment to seize greater political power, feed his bloated ego, eviscerate the NC$$ on C-SPAN and "save" the Sioux moniker for UND or SL, or something! *cue "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" I guess that is one way to look at it, I think Al has looked like a buffoon during this mess... I think this is why you don't see Hoeven, Berg and Conrad chiming in on this... They don't want to be associated with this folly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Can the voters "recall" Clueless Al? Maybe that's a worthwhile petition ... Where do I sign!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonadub Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 It's kind of curious that if this issue was such a sore point for so many people in the past, that they are now willing to handicap UND athletics, why are the politicos like Conrad, Hoeven, et al. continually re-elected? And the AG Stenjhem has been in office since 2001 and has been re-elected a few times. Odd ... Is this issue on the agenda for the congressional elections? Since the feds have the only real power to bring the NC$$ to heel, you have to wonder about the true motivations of Carlson, Hennen, Soderstrom, etc. and yet, some on this forum continually point out that Standing Rock has elected tribal council members that do not vote 'for' the nickname. sorry to point this out, but the nickname is not the most pressing issue for any elected official, whether federal, state or tribal. as such, UND is just going to have to live with the consequences. unfortunately, ira, sica, scott and others are probably correct that even with Standing Rock tribal approval, at this point it is too late. so, the only recourse left is Spirit Lake's pending suit. and that will be a long, expensive process that may result in nothing changing either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 and yet, some on this forum continually point out that Standing Rock has elected tribal council members that do not vote 'for' the nickname. sorry to point this out, but the nickname is not the most pressing issue for any elected official, whether federal, state or tribal. as such, UND is just going to have to live with the consequences. unfortunately, ira, sica, scott and others are probably correct that even with Standing Rock tribal approval, at this point it is too late. so, the only recourse left is Spirit Lake's pending suit. and that will be a long, expensive process that may result in nothing changing either. I think Carlson will find a way to muck that up too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 and yet, some on this forum continually point out that Standing Rock has elected tribal council members that do not vote 'for' the nickname. sorry to point this out, but the nickname is not the most pressing issue for any elected official, whether federal, state or tribal. as such, UND is just going to have to live with the consequences. unfortunately, I don't really care what SR or SL do. If this issue is so important that 17,000 souls are willing to sign petitions that will endanger UND's viability at D1, why aren't they willing to make this an election issue for The Three Stooges, or those who want to be part of that triad? It would be pretty easy to "run against the NC$$", and you may actually find allies in Congress with their own grievances against the NC$$ to make an impact. Said it before, and I'll say it again:If anybody signs those petitions they should not vote for any incumbent this fall. Put your money and votes where your mouth is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benny Baker Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I don't really care what SR or SL do. If this issue is so important that 17,000 souls are willing to sign petitions that will endanger UND's viability at D1, why aren't they willing to make this an election issue for The Three Stooges, or those who want to be part of that triad? It would be pretty easy to "run against the NC$$", and you may actually find allies in Congress with their own grievances against the NC$$ to make an impact. Said it before, and I'll say it again:If anybody signs those petitions they should not vote for any incumbent this fall. Put your money and votes where your mouth is. Agreed, but for all pratical purposes the NCAA spends a helluva lot more money lobbying Congress than those 17,000 people have in their bank accounts. I hate to sound like I'm spewing the OWS 1% stuff, but if someone like Rick Berg was really looking out for North Dakota and its institutions of higher education, then he should at least put some skin in this game. Whether he chooses to confront the NCAA or takes the position to retire the name is up to him. But if he truly has taken the position that he doesn't want to be involved, as some people suggest, well that's just kind of sad to hear from one of North Dakota's congressmen. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Agreed, but for all pratical purposes the NCAA spends a helluva lot more money lobbying Congress than those 17,000 people have in their bank accounts. I hate to sound like I'm spewing the OWS 1% stuff, but if someone like Rick Berg was really looking out for North Dakota and its institutions of higher education, then he should at least put some skin in this game. Whether he chooses to confront the NCAA or takes the position to retire the name is up to him. But if he truly has taken the position that he doesn't want to be involved, as some people suggest, well that's just kind of sad to hear from one of North Dakota's congressmen. Just my opinion. Money certainly talks in DC, but it doesn't vote in North Dakota or anywhere else. If Berg or any of the others wants to keep their job, perhaps the petitioners should see fit to put their feet to the fire. If any of The Three Stooges doesn't pick up this issue and press the NC$$ over its business practices, then either fire the politicians or keep this issue out of the political process entirely and let the NC$$ and Board go on their merry ways. Votes and voter should matter, but they have to get off their asses to do so. "Change" at the NC$$ won't happen in Bismarck, Fargo, Minot, Jamestown, Fort Totten, etc., but it may happen in DC if somebody is willing to push these guys for once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Ponder the following: Al Carlson vows to fight to keep a law that the Legislature itself decided needed to be repealed and did repeal overwhelmingly. How does that even make sense? It only makes sense from the standpoint that it triggered the constitutional crisis that Al wanted all along. It makes even less sense when you factor in that the statute is, in the opinions of PhillySioux, Scott M., myself and probably others on this board, unconstitutional without even getting into the issue of the relative powers of the board of higher ed. and the legislature. Frankly, I hope the Supreme Court's holding is based upon a finding that the statute was an unconstitutional attempt to alter the state's obligations pursuant to the settlement agreement. Let Al find some other excuse to have the battle he so desperately wants. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejm Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Money certainly talks in DC, but it doesn't vote in North Dakota or anywhere else. If Berg or any of the others wants to keep their job, perhaps the petitioners should see fit to put their feet to the fire. If any of The Three Stooges doesn't pick up this issue and press the NC$$ over its business practices, then either fire the politicians or keep this issue out of the political process entirely and let the NC$$ and Board go on their merry ways. Votes and voter should matter, but they have to get off their asses to do so. "Change" at the NC$$ won't happen in Bismarck, Fargo, Minot, Jamestown, Fort Totten, etc., but it may happen in DC if somebody is willing to push these guys for once. I understand your position, and agree that the NC$$ will not be swayed by a bunch of flatlanders here on the Plains. I would, however, like to believe Congress has a lot more important things to do than take the NC$$ to the woodshed, regardless of the fact that it is a deserved trip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 yeah like fight with each other & do nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I understand your position, and agree that the NC$$ will not be swayed by a bunch of flatlanders here on the Plains. I would, however, like to believe Congress has a lot more important things to do than take the NC$$ to the woodshed, regardless of the fact that it is a deserved trip. Oh come on, think of the bipartisian potential that would help banish their do-nothing, dysfunctional image that makes the Italian parliament look positively effective. The GOP could attack the NC$$ as an "elitist" organization seeking to "impose its agenda" on schools across the land. The Dems could attack the NC$$'s rules as discriminating against poor minority student-athletes. The C-SPAN potential is huge. Seriously, I think that if any member of NoDak's congressional delegation had summoned up the fortitude to challenge the NC$$ in 2005, we may not be in the current mess. Maybe it's too late, or maybe not ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagies Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 *cue "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" Great this whole thing feels bad enough, now it feels like we lost to the gophers..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackheart Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 If only North Dakota's congressional Delegation had a conversation like this regarding the nickname...the names have been changed to protect the lame-asses representing our state... Bluto: Hey! What's all this laying around stuff? Why are you all still laying around here for? Stork: What the hell are we supposed to do, ya moron? We're all expelled. There's nothing to fight for anymore. D-Day: [to Bluto] Let it go. War's over, man. NCAA dropped the big one. Bluto: What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no! Otter: [to Boon] Germans? Boon: Forget it, he's rolling. Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough... [thinks hard of something to say] Bluto: The tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go! [Bluto runs out, alone; then returns] Bluto: What the f*ck happened to the North Dakota I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This could be the greatest night of our lives, but you're gonna let it be the worst. "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Bluto, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer... Otter: Dead! Bluto's right. Psychotic... but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons, but that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part! Bluto: We're just the guys to do it. D-Day: [stands up] Yeah, I agree. Let's go get 'em. Boon: Let's do it. Bluto: [shouting] "Let's do it"! [all of the Deltas stand up and run out with Bluto] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gfhockey Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 rep berg has pissed off a lot of people and prolly wont be getting re elected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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