redwing77 Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 I think the Crosby-Gretzky comparison is similar to LeBron-Jordan. Each played in different eras and essentially in a different league. Would Wayne put up those same stats today as he did back in his time? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think anyone would complain about having Crosby on their team. It's unfair for players who just go out and play the game to get comparisons of the game's legends. Look at QB's of the 70s and 80s in the NFL compared to QB's today. There were great QB's then, but the game was so different that the stats are no comparison. Am I a Crosby fan? No. I just take him for what he's worth, and he's someone you have to pay attention to every shift he's on the ice. I think it's fair to say that Crosby has done considerably well for someone of his age and with the amounts of pressure put on him. He's already taken his team to a Stanley Cup final, and is putting his team in position for another appearance. Winning is what matters, and Sidney, the leader of his team, has done that so far, despite not having his name engraved on that coveted trophy yet. I agree with this. Crosby has done well. And he is not a player you can ignore when he's not on the ice. He is also VERY important to the Pens as a whole. But I wish that's where it ended. I love the LeBron-Jordan reference. I think that's exactly what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stickboy1956 Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Sid is indeed good. However, Toews (whom I think you are referring to), is better in front of a microphone. I was referring to Parise, not Toews. Like it or not, pro/major college sports is entertainment (we don't get in the door for free) - hype is part of the business. It's easier to sell players than teams - thus the hype for Sid, AO, etc. It's not new - fans came to watch Hull, Orr, Gretzky, Mario, etc. in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing77 Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 I was referring to Parise, not Toews. Like it or not, pro/major college sports is entertainment (we don't get in the door for free) - hype is part of the business. It's easier to sell players than teams - thus the hype for Sid, AO, etc. It's not new - fans came to watch Hull, Orr, Gretzky, Mario, etc. in the past. I must have been somewhere else when Parise committed because I didn't hear all the hype... or maybe I was less of a curmudgeon back then. I do recall the hype on Toews. Oh well. It is entertainment, but I like the entertainment to come from the action on the ice, not the hot air from the media types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing77 Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 DaveK- I will not say Sid is the best in the NHL. He's not the "best" in any single category or he'd be up for a lot more awards than he is. I WILL, however, say that he is in the top 4 players in the NHL this year along with AO and perhaps Malkin and Datsyuk. I also think players like Thomas, Lidstrom, Kane, Malkin, Getzlaf, Phaneuf, Green, Brodeur, Nash, Richards, Backstrom (MIN), and I'm sure I'm missing quite a few others are great players too this year. I only label a player as "best" in retrospect. Like I said, Sidney, at this rate, is a surefire hall of famer. He is definitely the heart and soul of the Penguins. However, I don't think he's the best in anything right now. And, historically speaking, he's not Gretzky. Hell, he's not even the best player to wear a Penguins jersey. To me, Lemieux will always be the best player ever to wear a Penguin jersey. Sidney could very well end up runner up by the end of his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 DaveK- I will not say Sid is the best in the NHL. He's not the "best" in any single category or he'd be up for a lot more awards than he is. I WILL, however, say that he is in the top 4 players in the NHL this year along with AO and perhaps Malkin and Datsyuk. I also think players like Thomas, Lidstrom, Kane, Malkin, Getzlaf, Phaneuf, Green, Brodeur, Nash, Richards, Backstrom (MIN), and I'm sure I'm missing quite a few others are great players too this year. I only label a player as "best" in retrospect. Like I said, Sidney, at this rate, is a surefire hall of famer. He is definitely the heart and soul of the Penguins. However, I don't think he's the best in anything right now. And, historically speaking, he's not Gretzky. Hell, he's not even the best player to wear a Penguins jersey. To me, Lemieux will always be the best player ever to wear a Penguin jersey. Sidney could very well end up runner up by the end of his career. I think personally I like Malkin and Ovechkin better than Crosby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbutcher Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Sid is indeed good. However, Toews (whom I think you are referring to), is better in front of a microphone. Sid is a good hockey player, but he's not as good as the media thinks he is. Offensively, he is ROUTINELY outplayed over the course of a season and even the playoffs by Ovechkin. Defensively among forwards he's not among the top three in that category. If Crosby is "that good," then AO is even better offensivly and Datsyuk makes Crosby look puny defensively and in all around game. So where does that put Crosby? A-HA! Enter the media-fed hype machine. Crosby has the makings to be a great hockey player over the course of a career at this pace. However, is he the best in the game in any given season? No. Is he among the best? I'd have to say yes. Does he stand out if you take away the media? I'm not sure. I guess I'd have to watch every Penguin game over the course of a season with and without Crosby to know that. Will he be remembered as a great hockey player? At this rate, yes. Will he be a Hall of Famer? Again, at this rate, yes. Is he what the hype machine makes of him ("the next Gretzky")? No. Let's do a direct statistical comparison and assume the following conditions: WHA stats don't count The "state of hockey" is the same (this presents a flaw in the analysis, but otherwise analysis isn't possible regardless and the media is blowing a lot of smoke without need of comparison) The teammate effect doesn't matter Sidney Crosby has played 4 years in the NHL. He has played 290 regular season games and 38 playoff games. Total offensive numbers are: Regular season: 132g 165a Playoffs: 21g 32a Total: 153g 198a Wayne Gretzky's first 4 years he played 319 regular season games and 33 playoff games. Regular season offensive totals: 261g 440a Playoffs: 26g 48a Total: 287g 488a Sid the Kid has 3 NHL awards to his name after 4 seasons (could be more after this season). The Great One had 10. Great comparison, no? In summation, calling Crosby the next "great one" is fine, but anyone who does so is pretty much saying that they are mentally incapable of rational thought. And, before you all jump on me asking "When was Sid ever compared to Gretzky?" just listen to the media during Sid's first few NHL seasons. His name and Gretzky's come up ALL THE F---ING TIME. He is not. He will never be. AO has a better shot at reaching Gretzky's season goal scoring mark than Crosby ever will. I DOUBT Sid the Kid ever touches the 50 goal mark. AO has done it now what... let's put it this way. AO has played 4 seasons in the NHL. He's only failed to score 50 or more goals in a season ONE SEASON. Seriously, if we want to make that comparison, I think we should be talking more of AO than Crosby. And I don't even like AO. He's a showboater. I feel he can be rather reckless on the ice at times too. Kinda vitriolic considering that I still respect both of them for what they do. I just resent the media (DUH!) for not allowing their play to speak for themselves. I hate hype. I can honestly say that and mean it. Wasn't it Gretzky who said if anyone was going to break his records it would be Crosby? Media hype, blame Wayne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing77 Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 I don't like Malkin as much as many do. I think Sid's better than Malkin and I believe Malkin has been the biggest beneficiary of Sid's talent. However, AO is only partially a cherry picker. Vanek was a cherry picker while in college. He was worthless defensively. AO actually hits people. He attempts (how successfully he does it is your opinion) to play both ends of the ice. AO has also come a long ways since juniors where he was a Earl-esque diving pansy. So, AO has the tendency to cherry-pick, true, one of the reasons why I don't like him either (but it is a balancing act as Cherry disliking him too makes me like AO a bit more now), however, he doesn't do it nearly as much as he used to. And no one cherry picked more at any level than Vanek did in Minnesota. Not even Kessel while with Minnesota. Not even any other Gopher player in hockey history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejm Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Who are these people you all are prattling on about? I don't recall seeing any of them play for UND. Start a new thread or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petey23 Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 I don't like Malkin as much as many do. I think Sid's better than Malkin and I believe Malkin has been the biggest beneficiary of Sid's talent. However, AO is only partially a cherry picker. Vanek was a cherry picker while in college. He was worthless defensively. AO actually hits people. He attempts (how successfully he does it is your opinion) to play both ends of the ice. AO has also come a long ways since juniors where he was a Earl-esque diving pansy. So, AO has the tendency to cherry-pick, true, one of the reasons why I don't like him either (but it is a balancing act as Cherry disliking him too makes me like AO a bit more now), however, he doesn't do it nearly as much as he used to. And no one cherry picked more at any level than Vanek did in Minnesota. Not even Kessel while with Minnesota. Not even any other Gopher player in hockey history. Spehar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbutcher Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Who are these people you all are prattling on about? I don't recall seeing any of them play for UND. Start a new thread or something. Guess I am not the only one thinking that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux_Hab-it Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Who are these people you all are prattling on about? I don't recall seeing any of them play for UND. Start a new thread or something. Be careful, or you may get a caution from the site. The one who only knows football is extremely sensitive and must have complained when I mentioned that this thread had been taken off track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Ovechkin is a cherry-picker. How anybody who claims to know the game of hockey can say he's a better all-around player than Crosby is a mystery to me. ...and to those who still don't buy into the Crosby hype, I recommend you educate yourselves by clicking on the following link: Sidney Crosby's playoff surge How can you say that with a straight face? Are you kidding me. That Cherry Picker had the most points in the NHL last season. Please don't lecture us on what player we should like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I think the fact it is the off season we can prattle about what ever we want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I like Ulf Samuelsson more than Denis Potvin, but I wouldn't say Ulf was better than Denis. Get a grip!!! I am not sure that is far comparison one is a hack and the other is a hall of famer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsh Hall Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Yeah, cherry-pickers tend to score a ton of points. Glad you're paying attention. I'm not telling anybody who they should like, I'm saying it's ridiculous to suggest that an offensive specialist is a better all-around hockey player than somebody who excels in all areas of the game. I like Ulf Samuelsson more than Denis Potvin, but I wouldn't say Ulf was better than Denis. Get a grip!!! Ovechkin is a more dynamic goal scorer than Crosby, and nobody in their right mind would argue otherwise. Crosby is a better hockey player than Ovechkin, and nobody in their right mind would argue otherwise. By that definition Gretzky was not a great player because he was not a strong defensive player. AO is a hard nosed player and demands 2 or 3 guys accounting for him at all times. His career stats are nearly identical to Crosby's, and he hasn't had the talent around him like Crosby. If you take Crosby out of the Pitt lineup they are still a competitive team. Without AO the Caps are awful. They are both elite players. To say that an argument can't be made that AO is better is crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodak hockey fanatic Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 none of these are former sioux... although former hockey players i guess have this discussion in the playoffs thread, or start a new one. but since it's already here, i'll add to the chaos... davek likes to stir the pot, that is obvious. whether or not he actually believes all the things he so stoutly defends here isn't even the point, he just wants a reaction, which is fine i guess, it gives us all something to discuss. crosby and ao are both phenomenal, and an argument can be made for either, to say that only one argument could be made is either severe lack of hockey sense or severely closeminded. to take it further, i believe an argument can be made between gretzky and lemieux. we'll never know if he would have stayed healthy, as with so many great athletes (bobby orr would fit this category also). gretzky was sick of course, but i think lemieux rivaled his talent with a much bigger frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissSioux85 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Back on topic... Toews with a power-play goal for Chicago. Game tied 1-1 after 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big A HG Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Back on topic... Toews with a power-play goal for Chicago. Game tied 1-1 after 1. Wings scored on a hard-to-swallow penalty on Toews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big A HG Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Each to their own I guess... one man's hack is another man's key member of not one but two Stanley Cup championship teams. I haven't followed your guys' argument much, but Walski can be considered a key member of our Frozen Four teams, despite him not being that great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 By that definition Gretzky was not a great player because he was not a strong defensive player. AO is a hard nosed player and demands 2 or 3 guys accounting for him at all times. His career stats are nearly identical to Crosby's, and he hasn't had the talent around him like Crosby. If you take Crosby out of the Pitt lineup they are still a competitive team. Without AO the Caps are awful. They are both elite players. To say that an argument can't be made that AO is better is crazy. Looked like dave got pwnd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodak hockey fanatic Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 toews with a beauty of a tip to tie it up 2 all over halfway through the third... dude is a gamer!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big A HG Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 How can somebody be a key member of a team without seeing any ice time? By providing a game-like work ethic every single practice, making his teammates better that way. (see 2008-09 team awards) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 By providing a game-like work ethic every single practice, making his teammates better that way. (see 2008-09 team awards) You know I was going to say that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison Pride Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Thought you guys might enjoy this. I'm not sure if it's posted anyplace else here yet. Tony Hrkac http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_12406513 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray77 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Thought you guys might enjoy this. I'm not sure if it's posted anyplace else here yet. Tony Hrkac http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_12406513 Great article...thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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