Standing Rock/Spirit Lake

[Teeder11]

That's why I listen to left wing talk shows sometime, a good way to get your heart rate up.

Good point, Goon. Sometimes I wonder if the lefties and the righties actually believe the stuff they spew, or if they are in it for the shock value. But it does get me tuning in, that is for sure.

[GeauxSioux]

UND CONTROVERSY: Chancellor to schedule tribal visit

In what may have been a signal to the tribes that he is willing to be flexible, Goetz pitched his tribal visit to the state board, in part by listing the long-controversial nickname's deleterious effects. Those included: "negative impacts on student enrollment and student perception," "a divisive environment perpetuated by positions taken on the issue," and "impact on alumni-foundation relations."

[ScottM]

Goetz pitched his tribal visit to the state board, in part by listing the long-controversial nickname's deleterious effects. Those included: "negative impacts on student enrollment and student perception,"

Is he serious? Way to lead with your chin.

[LB#11]

Is he serious? Way to lead with your chin.

I know when I decided to go to school at UND, the Fighting Sioux nickname was one of the reasons I chose to go there.

[Fetch]

Chancellor to schedule tribal visit

I thought there was going to be a high power delegation

[Oxbow6]

Is he serious? Way to lead with your chin.

[Melvin]

I know when I decided to go to school at UND, the Fighting Sioux nickname was one of the reasons I chose to go there.

ME TOO, that was the first thing that I checked out.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

A quote from the newspaper:

In what may have been a signal to the tribes that he is willing to be flexible, Goetz pitched his tribal visit to the state board, in part by listing the long-controversial nickname's deleterious effects. Those included: "negative impacts on student enrollment and student perception," "a divisive environment perpetuated by positions taken on the issue," and "impact on alumni-foundation relations."

• Negative impact on student enrollement: Can you prove this? Can you quantify this? And IMHO if this was in any way true, the nickname would have been dropped long ago.
  
• Negative impact on student perception: Student perception of WHAT?
  
• Divisive environment perpetuated... : And either eliminating or keeping the nickname will do what? Are "devisive environments" automatically bad? This smacks of groupthink to me.
  
• Impact on Alumni-Foundation relations: I'm going to go way out on a limb here and translate this as really saying that "the alums are sitting on their hands and not kicking in enough". So eliminating the nickname is the preferred solution here?
  

IMHO, a lot of hot air to say what everyone already knew. You have empowered idiots, the vast majority of people don't like it and you're trying to please a tiny number of academic PC zealots and "activists" without actually losing dollars contributed by the overwhelming majority of people who realize this "insult" is a non-issue. That's not going to happen. Either you accept the lower income or you actually tell some of your friends to get a life.

[ScottM]

I think Goetz is going through the motions to live up to the sprit of the surrender settlement, as well as give the SL and SR folks some political cover when the name finally goes away.

[Goon]

I think Goetz is going through the motions to live up to the sprit of the surrender settlement, as well as give the SL and SR folks some political cover when the name finally goes away.

I think your right...

[Chewey]

I think your right...

What's PCM's take on this? Perhaps I'm naive but it may not be as dire as ScottM indicates. But, the tribal PC zealots are about as reasonable as the white professor PC zealots so I should probably not be too sanguine. As someone once told me about SAC when the GF Air Force Base lost its missles in 1995 or so and as that same person repeated to me when GFAFB lost its planes, people have long memories. In the case of the GFAFB, SAC had a long memory about UND professors and others protesting the military during the Vietnam War and the brass remembered how some people took pot shots at the planes with .22 rifles. In the case of the nickname, is anyone really stupid enough think that the nickname proponents and alumni are just going to forget and that there will just be so much good will in the air now when the nickname is gone?

[Chewey]

BTW, there are sub-zero temperatures in Mankato. I read on a blog that the protestors would be out. I wonder if it will be too cold for them to express their heartfelt convictions. It's too bad that people actually think that those bus-ins really are residents of the cities they assault.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I think Goetz is going through the motions to live up to the sprit of the surrender settlement, as well as give the SL and SR folks some political cover when the name finally goes away.

That's pretty accurate IMHO. Has anyone else besides Goetz ever seen/mentioned/heard of the enrollment issue? Or the "student perceptions" issue? I think those are simply the wishes of one side of the debate. When you elevate these harebrained "its doing this" assertions that are unsupported in the real world into a statement of fact, your objectivity is questionable.

BTW, there are sub-zero temperatures in Mankato. I read on a blog that the protestors would be out. I wonder if it will be too cold for them to express their heartfelt convictions. It's too bad that people actually think that those bus-ins really are residents of the cities they assault.

If its true that protesters are being bused from city to city, that's very sad.

But I wonder what the posters who talk about the money "wasted" on the lawsuit and how it could be better spent would say to this use of money.

In the case of the nickname, is anyone really stupid enough think that the nickname proponents and alumni are just going to forget and that there will just be so much good will in the air now when the nickname is gone?

I'll resist the urge to comment on other people's stupidity.

But I will say that this sort of Pollyannaish "oh if you just eliminate the nickname then the controversy will go away" attitude is common among those who want the nickname to go away. They never mention FSU or Utah.

Aside from the above, I have a question on the so-called "nation to nation" negotiations: who gets to vote in the tribal elections, and is that the only "nation" those people can vote in?

I certainly can't vote in a British election, or a Mexican election. One nation and one nation only as far as voting for a US citizen AFAIK. Seems to me that if you can vote for people who are on both sides of a negotiating table it becomes a moot point.

[Old Time Hockey]

"After the November Standing Rock vote and His Horse Is Thunder's UND presentation, though, Goetz and board President John Paulsen both floated the idea of abandoning the delegation and simply giving up the nickname."

We are doomed!

[GeauxSioux]

VIEWPOINT : Tribal members: Why we're honored by nickname

The important question is this: What will our children and students gain by UND dropping its nickname and logo? The answer, quite simply, is nothing.

We strongly believe that dropping the nickname will result only in destroying years of progress in race relations with the people of North Dakota. We also believe it will eventually result in isolation and a loss of opportunities for the Sioux to inform and bring better understanding of our history, heritage and tradition.

This subject has caused a lot controversy in recent years. We would like to sit down with tribal members at a forum and discuss this in an objective manner.

Thank you for this opportunity to express our views.

Great points.

[ScottM]

VIEWPOINT : Tribal members: Why we're honored by nickname Great points.

It's really sad these people don't understand they're being oppressed.

[Diggler]

It's really sad these people don't understand they're being oppressed.

Well, you could say 'Dennis'.

Well, I didn't know you were called 'Dennis'.

Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you?

[Oxbow6]

Well, you could say 'Dennis'.

Well, I didn't know you were called 'Dennis'.

Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you?

"Dennis, there is some lovely filth down here."

[The Sicatoka]

VIEWPOINT : Tribal members: Why we're honored by nickname Great points.

Thank you to Rick Red Eagle, Antoine American Horse Jr., Mr. and Mrs. Robert Gates, Rita Loon, Neal Two Bears, Bill Mutcher, John Luke Flying Horse Sr., Richard Fiddler, and Archie D. Fool Bear for stepping up and expressing their point of view on this matter. Well done.

[dagies]

Thank you to Rick Red Eagle, Antoine American Horse Jr., Mr. and Mrs. Robert Gates, Rita Loon, Neal Two Bears, Bill Mutcher, John Luke Flying Horse Sr., Richard Fiddler, and Archie D. Fool Bear for stepping up and expressing their point of view on this matter. Well done.

Exactly what I was going to say.

Thank you.

[GeauxSioux]

Spirit Lake may hold referendum

The Spirit Lake Sioux Reservation likely will hold a referendum vote on whether to allow UND to continue using its Fighting Sioux nickname, a member of the tribal council said Friday.

Leben said she does not know when the referendum vote will be held.

[darell1976]

Spirit Lake may hold referendum

So if the nickname passes with this kind of a vote would that a$$hole Ron His Horse Is Thunder do the same thing at the Standing Rock? Or would he be too scared about the outcome.

[sioux7>5]

So if the nickname passes with this kind of a vote would that a$$hole Ron His Horse Is Thunder do the same thing at the Standing Rock? Or would he be too scared about the outcome.

He would be too scared to find out the results. Mr. McNeil needs to shut his pie hole.

[UND83]

Thank you to Rick Red Eagle, Antoine American Horse Jr., Mr. and Mrs. Robert Gates, Rita Loon, Neal Two Bears, Bill Mutcher, John Luke Flying Horse Sr., Richard Fiddler, and Archie D. Fool Bear for stepping up and expressing their point of view on this matter. Well done.

Does anyone have the full article? I go to the link and have to pay $3 since it is archived.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

(emphasis mine)

I'm glad this is happening-an important first step IMHO. However, I'm not too happy with the couched, unknown-time-frame tone of the tribal council member.

I have to wonder if a referendum would be binding according to the tribe's constitution? IIRC, that was part of your NCAA settlement.

So if the nickname passes with this kind of a vote would that a$$hole Ron His Horse Is Thunder do the same thing at the Standing Rock?

I would think that if the referendum is held, no matter what the outcome it would pressure the other tribe towards holding a similar referendum. However, if it doesn't pass you can expect the "how much should we spend to hold an election that will be meaningless" argument to be raised.

Also, the "we want to hold an election, we just don't know when" language of the original article makes me curious as to whether the two tribes are trying to get together on a decision on holding the referendum-and if so, will it be held on the same day. Perhaps I'm reading too much into that.