North Dakota Roughriders?

[homer]

Yes, because it is still an option to choose for a nickname from the people in the 'know'!

 

Are you talking about the state legislature that forced UND to have this name or the commitee?  Do they know for certain or do they not want to be the bad person and get rid of the name?  I have yet to see a quote that says for certain that this meets all requirements in the agreement with the NCAA. 

[mksioux]

We're talking about a committee that is so paranoid about running afoul with the NCAA that they dropped harmless names like "Arrows" and "Nokota" because of the slightest possibility they might cause problems with the NCAA.  Yet, not one of them has cited the NCAA as a reason not to go with "North Dakota" despite the fact that many committee members really dislike that option.  And President Kelley has publicly stated that no-nickname is an option.  

 

But I guess the committee members and President Kelley are just slow to understand.  We, the geniuses on siouxsports, clearly know more about the issue than they do.  After all, we read a sentence in the settlement agreement! 

[bigskyvikes]

We're talking about a committee that is so paranoid about running afoul with the NCAA that they dropped harmless names like "Arrows" and "Nokota" because of the slightest possibility they might cause problems with the NCAA. Yet, not one of them has cited the NCAA as a reason not to go with "North Dakota" despite the fact that many committee members really dislike that option. And President Kelley has publicly stated that no-nickname is an option.

But I guess the committee members and President Kelley are just slow to understand. We, the geniuses on siouxsports, clearly know more about the issue than they do. After all, we read a sentence in the settlement agreement!

Thank you mksioux, well said!

[Hambone]

Does KG respond to emails from the common folk regarding this issue (never sent one but assume that maybe someone has)?  If someone emailed him and asked him if he knew for sure the no nickname was okay, would he respond?

[UND1983]

We're talking about a committee that is so paranoid about running afoul with the NCAA that they dropped harmless names like "Arrows" and "Nokota" because of the slightest possibility they might cause problems with the NCAA.  Yet, not one of them has cited the NCAA as a reason not to go with "North Dakota" despite the fact that many committee members really dislike that option.  And President Kelley has publicly stated that no-nickname is an option.  

 

But I guess the committee members and President Kelley are just slow to understand.  We, the geniuses on siouxsports, clearly know more about the issue than they do.  After all, we read a sentence in the settlement agreement! 

 

Why do you want to stay "North Dakota"?

[mksioux]

Why do you want to stay "North Dakota"?

I don't.  I just think you all are wrong on this issue.

 

"North Dakota" should rise or fall on its own merits, not on misinformation about it running afoul with the NCAA.

[jdub27]

Why do you want to stay "North Dakota"?

 

I'd rephrase it to "Why don't you want a nickname?".  UND always has been and always will be North Dakota regardless of what nickname is chosen.

[UND1983]

I don't.  I just think you all are wrong on this issue.

 

"North Dakota" should rise or fall on its own merits, not on misinformation about it running afoul with the NCAA.

 

Exactly.  What are the merits for not having a nickname?   UND is already "North Dakota" on all their marketing stuff - they can go by that for the next 200 years, just as they did before.  Sioux sometimes, North Dakota sometimes, UND sometimes.  

[Siouxperfan7]

I don't.  I just think you all are wrong on this issue.

 

"North Dakota" should rise or fall on its own merits, not on misinformation about it running afoul with the NCAA.

 

The problem is that no one can give a definitive answer whether it is misinformation or not.  KG said that "North Dakota" is still an option yet he has never said that the NCAA is OK with it.  If the NCAA was fine with it, you would thinkhe would say so.  Can anyone say that the NCAA is ok with it?  I guess only the boys in Indy can answer that question.  One would think that this commitee would run that by them before the "North Dakota" option gets too far down the narrowing down process.  Maybe they are just hoping that it happens naturally.  But the committee could have answered this very easy question by just making a phone call to the NCAA. 

[homer]

People are looking for quotes and examples of how not having a nickname hurts UND.  I really expect a quote from the anyone at UND and the commitee stating they have spoken with the NCAA and they are fine with not having a nickname.  I have yet to see that and highly doubt anyone in the "know" is willing to stick their neck out there since we are playing by the NCAA's rules and they have proven time and time again that they are anything but black and white. 

 

If there is another "Siouxper drunk" incedent after UND decides not to pick an official nickname and it hits the news, can it be determined by the NCAA that UND made an effort to truely move away from the Sioux nickname?

[Siouxperfan7]

People are looking for quotes and examples of how not having a nickname hurts UND.  I really expect a quote from the anyone at UND and the commitee stating they have spoken with the NCAA and they are fine with not having a nickname.  I have yet to see that and highly doubt anyone in the "know" is willing to stick their neck out there since we are playing by the NCAA's rules and they have proven time and time again that they are anything but black and white. 

 

If there is another "Siouxper drunk" incedent after UND decides not to pick an official nickname and it hits the news, can it be determined by the NCAA that UND made an effort to truely move away from the Sioux nickname?

 

Like I have said, name suggestions have been thrown out for way less than this!!  And where are these mareketing and branding consultants that seem to have an opinion on every other nickname except this one?!  I would like to hear their opinion on the branding possibilities of having no nickname!!  Seems like more of an issue than what they are making with these other names they are taking exception to!

[mksioux]

Exactly.  What are the merits for not having a nickname?   UND is already "North Dakota" on all their marketing stuff - they can go by that for the next 200 years, just as they did before.  Sioux sometimes, North Dakota sometimes, UND sometimes.  

I don't generally comment when there is a discussion about whether or not you can market "no-nickname."  Your point is well taken.  Not having a nickname is not ideal.  As flawed as Roughriders is, I prefer it to no nickname.  My only point on the merits is that while a good nickname is better than no nickname, no nickname is better than some of the awful nicknames on the list.  For me, "no-nickname" is not a yes or no question.  It all depends on what your'e comparing it to.  

 

 

The problem is that no one can give a definitive answer whether it is misinformation or not.  KG said that "North Dakota" is still an option yet he has never said that the NCAA is OK with it.  If the NCAA was fine with it, you would thinkhe would say so.  Can anyone say that the NCAA is ok with it?  I guess only the boys in Indy can answer that question.  One would think that this commitee would run that by them before the "North Dakota" option gets too far down the narrowing down process.  Maybe they are just hoping that it happens naturally.  But the committee could have answered this very easy question by just making a phone call to the NCAA. 

When "Arrows" and "Nokota" were removed from the list, the committee cited the fact that they might run afoul with the NCAA policy.  They didn't ask the NCAA for a ruling.   All it took was a suggestion that they might violate the policy and the committee removed them.  Yet they kept "North Dakota" on the list and haven't said anything with respect to the NCAA.  If anyone on the committee believes there may be an NCAA problem with "North Dakota," they are doing an incredible disservice by keeping quiet about it.

[Blackheart]

The problem is that no one can give a definitive answer whether it is misinformation or not.  KG said that "North Dakota" is still an option yet he has never said that the NCAA is OK with it.  If the NCAA was fine with it, you would thinkhe would say so.  Can anyone say that the NCAA is ok with it?  I guess only the boys in Indy can answer that question.  One would think that this commitee would run that by them before the "North Dakota" option gets too far down the narrowing down process.  Maybe they are just hoping that it happens naturally.  But the committee could have answered this very easy question by just making a phone call to the NCAA.

I guess we will find out one way or another soon enough. Would be nice if the committee got this info straight from the horses as...I mean mouth.

[homer]

Like I have said, name suggestions have been thrown out for way less than this!!  And where are these mareketing and branding consultants that seem to have an opinion on every other nickname except this one?!  I would like to hear their opinion on the branding possibilities of having no nickname!!  Seems like more of an issue than what they are making with these other names they are taking exception to!

 

I have my favorites of the 7, it may not be selected and I will be fine either way.  I will offer what I would like to have seen from this process- I would have liked there to be a logo or logo idea was offered by the time this goes to vote. 

 

My personal stance on the UND name and logo was always the logo was the best part and the hardest to let go.  Having a feel for potential replacements may help in the voting process.  I know this would add a little more time but this has drawn on long enough already. 

[mksioux]

I guess we will find out one way or another soon enough. Would be nice if the committee got this info straight from the horses as...I mean mouth.

I think as we approach the final-cut, opposition to "North Dakota" will intensify and we might start seeing a committee member or two bring up the NCAA question.  Maybe that will force someone on the committee to seek a straight answer from the NCAA and hopefully end this debate once and for all.  If I'm wrong and the NCAA says no-nickname is not okay, I'd be fine with it.  At least we'd have clarity.

[jdub27]

I think as we approach the final-cut, opposition to "North Dakota" will intensify and we might start seeing a committee member or two bring up the NCAA question.  Maybe that will force someone on the committee to seek a straight answer from the NCAA and hopefully end this debate once and for all.  If I'm wrong and the NCAA says no-nickname is not okay, I'd be fine with it.  At least we'd have clarity.

 

"No nickname" was 2 votes out of 11 from being completely removed from consideration, it is possible that there is hope it just goes away naturally and there is no need to get the NCAA involved in the situation at all. And honestly, if the NCAA has spoken on the matter and given their blessing for "no nickname" (and I personally don't think they have), what's the best case answer they could actually give - "Sure, its fine today but we continue to reserve the right to change our mind and policies at any point". 

[bigskyvikes]

People are looking for quotes and examples of how not having a nickname hurts UND. I really expect a quote from the anyone at UND and the commitee stating they have spoken with the NCAA and they are fine with not having a nickname. I have yet to see that and highly doubt anyone in the "know" is willing to stick their neck out there since we are playing by the NCAA's rules and they have proven time and time again that they are anything but black and white.

If there is another "Siouxper drunk" incedent after UND decides not to pick an official nickname and it hits the news, can it be determined by the NCAA that UND made an effort to truely move away from the Sioux nickname?

Lol...yep that happened because of the nickname or lack thereof!

[homer]

Lol...yep that happened because of the nickname or lack thereof!

 

But it did bring attention to UND and the nickname.  UND has no control over others actions but they are the one's continually coming out of these situations looking bad and having to do damage control.  Thats not going to change but even you can see how those situations can be handled differently with a new nickname in place instead of being known as North Dakota.

[zonadub]

Personally, I do not care whether the NCAA will allow 'no nickname' or just "North Dakota" or not. In my opinion, that/those option(s) are not in the best interest of UND and the athletic program formerly known as the Fighting Sioux.

Whether you like it or not, it is the program formerly known as the Fighting Sioux. The NCAA and the PC crowd has seen to that and in this era of the bleeding heart white man apologist, it will not change.

I will admit I do not care for almost all the names still under consideration, but to think going forward with no name is settling the matter is, again in my opinion, shortsighted.

Whether UND become the Roughriders, ________ Hawks or even Nodaks, it is still the UND team that I will root for for the rest of my mortal life.

[Chewey]

The NCAA is the only one that knows for certain what will be acceptable and what will not.  They have made the rules and moved the goalposts where ever they have for the last 5+ years. 

 

Do you know for certain that not officially choosing a new nickname will be accepted by the NCAA?

The NCAA could come in and say "Fighting Sioux" is ok again, at some point.  The NCAA could come in and say that "Roughriders" is not acceptable because of the indecencies perpetrated on the Latino fighters at that time and that the present day Latino community is offended.  The unpredictability argument is another arrow in the quiver as to why things should just stay "North Dakota".  Logic justifying the selection of a nickname becomes a bit contorted when one says that we must have a nickname so as to appease the NCAA who may right now be ok with "North Dakota" but, at some future point, may change its tune and not be ok with just "North Dakota" or with "Roughriders" etc.  That argument is circular.  The school should seize the day and explicitly say that it's not choosing a nickname and state why (the Fighting Sioux nickname was the best, respect for the people who gave it to the school, etc.).  Some lame nickname replacement may not be as marketable or as appealing to future recruits are some on here surmise.  Ideas, passion, success, respect for tradition, deference to historical significance sell.  

[jdub27]

The NCAA could come in and say "Fighting Sioux" is ok again, at some point.  The NCAA could come in and say that "Roughriders" is not acceptable because of the indecencies perpetrated on the Latino fighters at that time and that the present day Latino community is offended.  The unpredictability argument is another arrow in the quiver as to why things should just stay "North Dakota".  Logic justifying the selection of a nickname becomes a bit contorted when one says that we must have a nickname so as to appease the NCAA who may right now be ok with "North Dakota" but, at some future point, may change its tune and not be ok with just "North Dakota" or with "Roughriders" etc.  That argument is circular.  The school should seize the day and explicitly say that it's not choosing a nickname and state why (the Fighting Sioux nickname was the best, respect for the people who gave it to the school, etc.).  Some lame nickname replacement may not be as marketable or as appealing to future recruits are some on here surmise.  Ideas, passion, success, respect for tradition, deference to historical significance sell.  

 

Just want to make sure I understand your stance: You are basically saying the only nickname that should ever be acceptable to be used at the University of North Dakota is Fighting Sioux and if that isn't possible there should never be another one chosen? 

[homer]

The NCAA could come in and say "Fighting Sioux" is ok again, at some point. The NCAA could come in and say that "Roughriders" is not acceptable because of the indecencies perpetrated on the Latino fighters at that time and that the present day Latino community is offended. The unpredictability argument is another arrow in the quiver as to why things should just stay "North Dakota". Logic justifying the selection of a nickname becomes a bit contorted when one says that we must have a nickname so as to appease the NCAA who may right now be ok with "North Dakota" but, at some future point, may change its tune and not be ok with just "North Dakota" or with "Roughriders" etc. That argument is circular. The school should seize the day and explicitly say that it's not choosing a nickname and state why (the Fighting Sioux nickname was the best, respect for the people who gave it to the school, etc.). Some lame nickname replacement may not be as marketable or as appealing to future recruits are some on here surmise. Ideas, passion, success, respect for tradition, deference to historical significance sell.

if it meets the agreement UND has in place with the NCAA, than allow it to be an option. The question needs to be asked and clarification needs to be given to voters prior to it making a ballet.

It would suck if UND couldn't host a hockey regional or playoff game in the future based on not asking a question and trying to stick it to the NCAA.

[Fetch]

He'll we have to go to Fargo now for regionals & even our conference tournament sucks at the current location......love the progress

[Chewey]

Just want to make sure I understand your stance: You are basically saying the only nickname that should ever be acceptable to be used at the University of North Dakota is Fighting Sioux and if that isn't possible there should never be another one chosen? 

That's the option I would prefer.  However, the broader point for which I'm advocating is to allow the people to freely do what they want to do.  Don't obfuscate things with paying $300k to a group to gather list of names that a drunkard stumbling out of Whitey's could generate, engage in scare tactics, engage in puerile invective, offer public statements that show a lack of an ability to appreciate nuances and complexities (see inane statments by 2 of the committee members that staying North Dakota will mean staying Fighting Sioux), offer misinformation about marketing, offer misinformation about how other schools/fans will identify UND, offer self-serving statements about NCAA unpredictability, etc.  In support of retaining "North Dakota, the same rhetoric regarding the loss of the "Fighting Sioux" nickname could be employed.  A few of the widely circulated platitudes proffered when the debate to retire the nickname/logo was raging were: 1.) players/recruits don't play for a nickname/logo; 2.) players choose successful programs and another nickname and logo will catch on eventually; 3.) nicknames and logos really are distant or at least highly secondary considerations; 4.) Recruits/other schools will brand or define UND as "racist" and use that against UND in recruiting if it's retained.   Now, we hear rhetoric that UND must choose a nickname.  The fact that various parties in favor of selecting a new nickname and logo have resorted to all of this really shows both the weakness of the idea and the lack of overall support for it.  It shows desperation.  Ideas should stand or fall on their own merits; the merits pro or con may change over time.  

 

At St. John's University, they have the Johnnies.  People have identified St. Johns teams as "the J's", "the Rats", "the cloistered monks", etc.  The "Rat Pack" that shows up in ridiculous attire to football and basketball games and performs ridiculous stunts/cheers has been an important part of the school's tradition and history.  The St. Thomas "Tommies" have "Ol' Tom" or "Zany Tom" the Tomcat as a mascot.  The Augsburg "Auggies" have a bald eagle as a mascot.  The St. Olaf "Oles" have a dragon that looks like a lion as a mascot.  The Gusties of Gustavus have a lion as a mascot.  The fact that there has not been any true nicknames has not resulted in any of these schools being defined by other parties.   Recruits trying to choose between Bethel, St. Thomas or St. John's don't choose Bethel and reject the other two because Bethel's teams are known as "The Royals".  

[Chewey]

If Kelley and the Committee want closure, healing, transparency, involve all of the stakeholders, etc., then they should truly allow the people to make the choice.  This is the only way that any licity, legitimacy, credibility can be ascribed to a process that, to-date, has been largely viewed as a cluster#@#.