Is History Repeating Itself?

[Goon]

Back in 2010, @redwing wrote this blog post on Goons World and it kind of seems like we've been here before. Some of the same themes have reappeared. 

Quote

It’s hard to take. It’s unimaginable that this team… MY team… OUR team… could falter like they are right now. There are no stats or records that can be put forth to change the reality that this part of our game isn’t working, that part of our game isn’t doing well, and so on. 

Brad Schlossman’s blog covers the fact that I’m portraying here. We pine for Blais. We think he’s the savior and Hakstol is the mule. One commenter on his blog states that “before our very eyes, UND is turning into St. Cloud State.” Well, let me tell ya folks, unless the NCAA is going to take away 7 National Championships and all of our NCAA tourney victories, that’s patently untrue. Also, they talk about Hakstol as a recruiter being a problem. Funny how he recruited such guys as Matt Greene, Matt Smaby, had a hand in snatching Johnny Toews, Zach Parise, and all those players we covet so much. Blais didn’t recruit everyone on his teams. Hakstol got the job based upon his ability to recruit, not just coaching ability. If you want to know how important that ability is, ask Scott Sandelin. It’s arguably why he’s still in Duluth after a few down seasons. We talk about how Hakstol should at least show some emotion on the bench yet, when other coaches do so, we berate that coach for being such a fool (see Gwozdecky, George). (Link)

 

[crb1]

I believe that our program's performance is very cyclical, experiencing natural highs and lows over time. Historically, it seems that about every 10 years, we reach a pinnacle, followed by a period of decline. While it's disheartening to be in one of these low spots right now, if history has taught us anything, it's that we will bounce back. We just need to stay patient and supportive as we wait for the upswing.

[burd]

Hak's time at HC could not be fairly described as a period of decline.   His record was exceptional, even compared to Gino and Dean.  He didn't win a banner, and that is the only metric some fans apply, but he was one the best program coaches UND has had.  

[crb1]

9 minutes ago, burd said:

Hak's time at HC could not be fairly described as a period of decline.   His record was exceptional, even compared to Gino and Dean.  He didn't win a banner, and that is the only metric some fans apply, but he was one the best program coaches UND has had.  

Yes, I agree with that if you are removing the NC drought from the conversation.

[fightingsioux4life]

5 minutes ago, burd said:

He didn't win a banner, and that is the only metric some fans apply, but he was one the best program coaches UND has had.  

Green banners are what people remember in the long run. Whether or not that is healthy or positive is debatable. What is not debatable is that a program's national reputation and profile is closely linked to winning NCAA titles. When Denver wins 3 titles and we cannot even make the national semifinals during the same time period, that is detrimental to our program.

Bemidji State was thrilled winning the McNaughton Cup. Michigan Tech was thrilled winning the CCHA autobid. UND's ambitions and expectations are and should be much higher.

[cowboys5xsbs]

The history being we need a new coach to get over the hump?

[Benny Baker]

Back in 2011, @redwing wrote this blog post on Goons World and it kind of seems like we've been here before. Some of the same themes have reappeared. 

It’s hard to take. It’s unimaginable that this team… MY team… OUR team… could falter like they are right now. There are no stats or records that can be put forth to change the reality that this part of our game isn’t working, that part of our game isn’t doing well, and so on. 

Brad Schlossman’s blog covers the fact that I’m portraying here. We pine for Blais. We think he’s the savior and Hakstol is the mule. One commenter on his blog states that “before our very eyes, UND is turning into St. Cloud State.” Well, let me tell ya folks, unless the NCAA is going to take away 7 National Championships and all of our NCAA tourney victories, that’s patently untrue. Also, they talk about Hakstol as a recruiter being a problem. Funny how he recruited such guys as Matt Greene, Matt Smaby, had a hand in snatching Johnny Toews, Zach Parise, and all those players we covet so much. Blais didn’t recruit everyone on his teams. Hakstol got the job based upon his ability to recruit, not just coaching ability. If you want to know how important that ability is, ask Scott Sandelin. It’s arguably why he’s still in Duluth after a few down seasons. We talk about how Hakstol should at least show some emotion on the bench yet, when other coaches do so, we berate that coach for being such a fool (see Gwozdecky, George). (Link)

Well this theme sure hasn't reappeared around UND the last 8 years.

[Fighting Sioux 23]

30 minutes ago, fightingsioux4life said:

Green banners are what people remember in the long run. Whether or not that is healthy or positive is debatable. What is not debatable is that a program's national reputation and profile is closely linked to winning NCAA titles. When Denver wins 3 titles and we cannot even make the national semifinals during the same time period, that is detrimental to our program.

Bemidji State was thrilled winning the McNaughton Cup. Michigan Tech was thrilled winning the CCHA autobid. UND's ambitions and expectations are and should be much higher.

While green banners are obviously the "most" memorable seasons, they are certainly not the only seasons that we remember.  I fondly remember the 1997-1998, 1998-1999, 2000-2001, 2003-2004, 2004-2005, 2007-2008, 2010-2011, 2014-2015, 2019-2020, and 2020-2021 runs.  They didn't end with national titles, but they were great seasons.  

 

Also, people are constantly bringing up Denver.  No doubt the Pios are on a run.  But they are quick to forget the Pios "awful" stretch between 2005 and 2016.  10 seasons.  0 National Titles.  0 Frozen Fours.  2 Regional Finals in 8 NCAA Tournaments (2-8 overall record).  2 missed NCAA Tournaments. 

 

As others have said, these things are cyclical.  Michigan had a historical run in the late '40s / early '50s  (6 titles in 9 seasons).  DU had a historical run in the late '50's / '60s. (5 titles in 12 seasons).  Wisconsin had a historical run in the '70s / early 80's (4 titles in 11 seasons).  BC had a historical run in the '00s / early '10s (4 titles in 12 seasons).  DU may currently be in the midst of another historical run (which, I guess I'm defining as 4 titles in 12 or fewer seasons).

 

One of the unique things about North Dakota's history, is that we have not had such a historical run, but we have been the most consistent program in college hockey history.  Our time atop the mountain will come again.  And if history repeats itself, that time will likely be sooner than some of us believe.

[Brett0909]

2 hours ago, Fighting Sioux 23 said:

While green banners are obviously the "most" memorable seasons, they are certainly not the only seasons that we remember.  I fondly remember the 1997-1998, 1998-1999, 2000-2001, 2003-2004, 2004-2005, 2007-2008, 2010-2011, 2014-2015, 2019-2020, and 2020-2021 runs.  They didn't end with national titles, but they were great seasons.  

 

Also, people are constantly bringing up Denver.  No doubt the Pios are on a run.  But they are quick to forget the Pios "awful" stretch between 2005 and 2016.  10 seasons.  0 National Titles.  0 Frozen Fours.  2 Regional Finals in 8 NCAA Tournaments (2-8 overall record).  2 missed NCAA Tournaments. 

 

As others have said, these things are cyclical.  Michigan had a historical run in the late '40s / early '50s  (6 titles in 9 seasons).  DU had a historical run in the late '50's / '60s. (5 titles in 12 seasons).  Wisconsin had a historical run in the '70s / early 80's (4 titles in 11 seasons).  BC had a historical run in the '00s / early '10s (4 titles in 12 seasons).  DU may currently be in the midst of another historical run (which, I guess I'm defining as 4 titles in 12 or fewer seasons).

 

One of the unique things about North Dakota's history, is that we have not had such a historical run, but we have been the most consistent program in college hockey history.  Our time atop the mountain will come again.  And if history repeats itself, that time will likely be sooner than some of us believe.

Thank you for pulling together the history lesson. Certainly interesting and helpful to add some historical perspective when it’s easy to just dwell on the recent past. 
 

The only thing I worry about is the (perceived) mentality from some that past success/cycles indicate future success. There are just as many historical programs that fade into history and don’t bounce back. Simply waiting for the cycle to work its way out or expecting we’ll just stay at the top because we always have been is a recipe for fading out of relevance. Holding for Sears and Blockbuster on line 1.  
 

Programs generally have a catalyst that helps lead the cyclical upswing - new coach being one often talked about here (not saying I agree or it’s the only one). It obviously wasn’t easy to part with York, Lucia, Berenson, etc. but we’ve seen how that’s reinvigorated those programs. Every other program is fighting for every possible advantage, if UND doesn’t fight just as hard, possibly make some tough decisions, and be willing to deeply reflect on what needs to change in the postseason, what’s happened before may not matter…

[Fighting Sioux 23]

32 minutes ago, Brett0909 said:

Thank you for pulling together the history lesson. Certainly interesting and helpful to add some historical perspective when it’s easy to just dwell on the recent past. 
 

The only thing I worry about is the (perceived) mentality from some that past success/cycles indicate future success. There are just as many historical programs that fade into history and don’t bounce back. Simply waiting for the cycle to work its way out or expecting we’ll just stay at the top because we always have been is a recipe for fading out of relevance. Holding for Sears and Blockbuster on line 1.  
 

Programs generally have a catalyst that helps lead the cyclical upswing - new coach being one often talked about here (not saying I agree or it’s the only one). It obviously wasn’t easy to part with York, Lucia, Berenson, etc. but we’ve seen how that’s reinvigorated those programs. Every other program is fighting for every possible advantage, if UND doesn’t fight just as hard, possibly make some tough decisions, and be willing to deeply reflect on what needs to change in the postseason, what’s happened before may not matter…

I don't believe anyone was suggesting that UND should do nothing and simply wait for another championship.  I also don't believe that UND is sitting on its hands waiting for the clock to strike 12 again.  However, some historical perspective is necessary with a certain portion of our fanbase at the moment.  Particularly those that point out Denver's current run as if that is what they've been doing for 75 years.  They have not (and I did not even mention in my original post DU's 35-year wander through the desert before pulling a miracle in 2004).  

 

I'd also challenge you on your assertion that there are "just as many" historical programs that fade into history and don't bounce back.  Historically, that is untrue.  The only programs that would come close to having faded away and not bounced back (at least, in my opinion) are LSSU and Maine.  LSSU had one decade of greatness, and I would not consider them to be a "historical program."  Maine gets closer to that status (about a 2 decade run of greatness, with two titles). But Maine has also now made significant investments in its program and finally made the tournament again.  We will see how their program responds here in the next few seasons.  Regardless, what makes a "historical program" is their ability to compete consistently over the course of time.  Almost by definition, they do not "fade into history."  

 

I'd also point out that BC (York), Minnesota (Lucia), and Michigan (Berenson), have won a grand total of 0 National Championships since departing with their legendary coaches.  You could throw BU (Parker) in that mix as well.  

[Brett0909]

3 minutes ago, Fighting Sioux 23 said:

I don't believe anyone was suggesting that UND should do nothing and simply wait for another championship.  I also don't believe that UND is sitting on its hands waiting for the clock to strike 12 again.  However, some historical perspective is necessary with a certain portion of our fanbase at the moment.  Particularly those that point out Denver's current run as if that is what they've been doing for 75 years.  They have not (and I did not even mention in my original post DU's 35-year wander through the desert before pulling a miracle in 2004).  

 

I'd also challenge you on your assertion that there are "just as many" historical programs that fade into history and don't bounce back.  Historically, that is untrue.  The only programs that would come close to having faded away and not bounced back (at least, in my opinion) are LSSU and Maine.  LSSU had one decade of greatness, and I would not consider them to be a "historical program."  Maine gets closer to that status (about a 2 decade run of greatness, with two titles). But Maine has also now made significant investments in its program and finally made the tournament again.  We will see how their program responds here in the next few seasons.  Regardless, what makes a "historical program" is their ability to compete consistently over the course of time.  Almost by definition, they do not "fade into history."  

 

I'd also point out that BC (York), Minnesota (Lucia), and Michigan (Berenson), have won a grand total of 0 National Championships since departing with their legendary coaches.  You could throw BU (Parker) in that mix as well.  

I get the perspective, and likely agree more than I disagree. All things equal, I think a change is necessary to start the upswing and now’s the time. Curious what you’re suggesting exactly? 

I personally believe it’s also clear that all those programs I mentioned are in much better shape than they were before making the coaching change, but we can split hairs on whether being a NC runner-up the last two years (BC and UMN) and multiple FF’s (Mich) is success or your point implying it’s not…when comparing to UNDs ongoing struggles. 
 

Regardless, appreciate the perspective and attempt to calm the overreactions and hope this debate is old history come this time next year. 

[Benny Baker]

3 hours ago, Fighting Sioux 23 said:

Also, people are constantly bringing up Denver.  No doubt the Pios are on a run.  But they are quick to forget the Pios "awful" stretch between 2005 and 2016.  10 seasons.  0 National Titles.  0 Frozen Fours.  2 Regional Finals in 8 NCAA Tournaments (2-8 overall record).  2 missed NCAA Tournaments.

Things got so “awful”, in fact, that Denver had to fire a revered head coach to get their ship turned back around.  Hope it doesn’t need to come to that around here.

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Just now, Brett0909 said:

I get the perspective, and likely agree more than I disagree. All things equal, I think a change is necessary to start the upswing and now’s the time. Curious what you’re suggesting exactly? 

I personally believe it’s also clear that all those programs I mentioned are in much better shape than they were before making the coaching change, but we can split hairs on whether being a NC runner-up the last two years (BC and UMN) and multiple FF’s (Mich) is success or your point implying it’s not…when comparing to UNDs ongoing struggles. 
 

Regardless, appreciate the perspective and attempt to calm the overreactions and hope this debate is old history come this time next year. 

I try to provide a historical perspective when I feel people are overreacting.  I hope the overreactions at this time next season are how many titles in a row will UND win.

[Big A HG]

Outside of the national championship with Hak's team in year one, what's better about the UND hockey program now than it was under Hak?  Not a single thing.  Everything has regressed.

[The Sicatoka]

Denver's run: 2017, 2022, 2024

Lest we forget: 1980, 1982, 1987

Same duration, three titles. 

[The Sicatoka]

Life is cyclic.

Appreciate the good; the not-so will come.

Don't dwell on the down times; work for better. 

[Oxbow6]

8 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Denver's run: 2017, 2022, 2024

Lest we forget: 1980, 1982, 1987

Same duration, three titles. 

Not many kids in the student section the past couple years even remember those UND champions......

[tnt]

24 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Life is cyclic.

Appreciate the good; the not-so will come.

Don't dwell on the down times; work for better. 

   Work for better is key.  You can't just stand pat and think things are going to turn around or your cycle is going to wait as long as CC or Michigan Tech has, or worse yet become the Minnesota Vikings or Minnesota pro sports in general.  

   If some of the other blue bloods like Minnesota, BC and Michigan win titles, that will be the next rallying cry, "well, the Vikings haven't ever won anything"?   When we recruit with the premise that expectations are high and we expect to compete for championships consistently, then in the same breath say everything is cyclical, those two don't mesh.  

If everything is cyclical, then a program with the advantages of UND should hope for longer cycles of consistent success even if we don't win it all, much like under Hakstol.  Still waiting for the Bison cycle to really turn downward where they don't even make the playoffs. 

   What is the plan to move past the first round loss cycle and missing out completely, or are they just going by the premise that we will enter a "lucky" cycle soon. 

   The last thing I want is a malaise to develop over the hockey program that has developed in some of our other sports where the expectation isn't even there anymore.

[The Sicatoka]

30 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

Not many kids in the student section the past couple years even remember those UND champions......

But as the more senior, mature members of fandom it's our jobs to provide history and perspective. 

[SJHovey]

Some additional perspective on the idea that since the '16 championship, we are descending into an average program.

Blue blood (and a couple of additional NCHC teams) winning percentage from the 2016-17 season through this past season.  And keep in mind, that the NCHC has won 5 of the 7 national championships since the '16 championship, so we're playing in a pretty good conference.

Denver - .700

Minnesota - .628

UND - .624

BU - .615

BC - .604

SCSU - .601

UMD - .595

Mich - .584

Wisconsin - .483

[RhettRingers]

16 hours ago, Fighting Sioux 23 said:

While green banners are obviously the "most" memorable seasons, they are certainly not the only seasons that we remember.  I fondly remember the 1997-1998, 1998-1999, 2000-2001, 2003-2004, 2004-2005, 2007-2008, 2010-2011, 2014-2015, 2019-2020, and 2020-2021 runs.  They didn't end with national titles, but they were great seasons.  

 

Also, people are constantly bringing up Denver.  No doubt the Pios are on a run.  But they are quick to forget the Pios "awful" stretch between 2005 and 2016.  10 seasons.  0 National Titles.  0 Frozen Fours.  2 Regional Finals in 8 NCAA Tournaments (2-8 overall record).  2 missed NCAA Tournaments. 

 

As others have said, these things are cyclical.  Michigan had a historical run in the late '40s / early '50s  (6 titles in 9 seasons).  DU had a historical run in the late '50's / '60s. (5 titles in 12 seasons).  Wisconsin had a historical run in the '70s / early 80's (4 titles in 11 seasons).  BC had a historical run in the '00s / early '10s (4 titles in 12 seasons).  DU may currently be in the midst of another historical run (which, I guess I'm defining as 4 titles in 12 or fewer seasons).

 

One of the unique things about North Dakota's history, is that we have not had such a historical run, but we have been the most consistent program in college hockey history.  Our time atop the mountain will come again.  And if history repeats itself, that time will likely be sooner than some of us believe.

And what did they do? Gwoz wanted an extension but they instead fired him and hired Monty, who at the time was 43...can't keep relying on tradition to win recruiting battles. The player commits to the coach. Maybe for once in the history of our athletics we look outside of the program for a head coach.

[fightingsioux4life]

2 hours ago, tnt said:

The last thing I want is a malaise to develop over the hockey program that has developed in some of our other sports where the expectation isn't even there anymore.

This is my concern as well. This is the point I have been trying to make over and over.

[Goon]

15 minutes ago, RhettRingers said:

And what did they do? Gwoz wanted an extension but they instead fired him and hired Monty, who at the time was 43...can't keep relying on tradition to win recruiting battles. The player commits to the coach. Maybe for once in the history of our athletics we look outside of the program for a head coach.

Funny you should mention Monty, he's been the Bruins head coach for two season and has won 112-32-20 (.743) the last two season and some in Bruins nation want him fired if his team is bounced in the first round of the Stanley Cup Playoffs. 

[Goon]

37 minutes ago, fightingsioux4life said:

This is my concern as well. This is the point I have been trying to make over and over.

Really, then you haven't been listening to Brad Berry. He's "NOT" satisfied with the results of the last season. He was on the next Tuesday with Tim Hennesey after the season was over, and said as much. 

[fightingsioux4life]

10 minutes ago, Goon said:

Funny you should mention Monty, he's been the Bruins head coach for two season and has won 112-32-20 (.743) the last two season and some in Bruins nation want him fired if his team is bounced in the first round of the Stanley Cup Playoffs. 

Wasn't Gwoz fired for non-performance related reasons? I seem to remember it being a politically related firing.