Kennedy vs. Engelstad Foundation: GF herald feature

[petey23]

31 minutes ago, dlsiouxfan said:

It's impossible to read this thread and not get sick to my stomach thinking about what an additional $400K-$500K of revenue each year would have meant to the football program over the last 15 years in terms of salaries, improvements, scholarships, etc.  To argue that it wouldn't is entirely asinine.   Kris McGarry and the REA foundation are leeches and crooks.  She's never made an honest buck in her life and her sense of entitlement to the revenues generated by UND athletics is astounding.

So you are accusing them of taking the money? I don't think anyone has shown that one nickel has left campus.

[dlsiouxfan]

2 minutes ago, petey23 said:

So you are accusing them of taking the money? I don't think anyone has shown that one nickel has left campus.

They need to open up the books and provide a full accounting.  REA and McGarry have been proven liars through their own public statements, so they should no longer be given the benefit of the doubt that they are properly stewarding the money entrusted to them. 

[petey23]

I am too lazy to go through the financial reports. They have been "doctored" in the past to cover women's hockey expenses and the like so not sure how accurate they are anyway.

Keep it simple, yes or no questions.

Has UND hockey outspent the money their program has brought to the University?

Has football outspent the money their program has brought to the University?

Has Men's Basketball outspent the money their program brought to the University?

Has Women's Basketball outspent the money their program brought to the University?

Has Volleyball outspent the money their program brought to the University?

For the record, I have season tickets for hockey, I don't have season tickets for football but have attended about 75-80% of our home games over the last 10-12 years. I don't have season tickets for Men's Basketball but have attended about 20-25% of our home games over the last 8-10 years. I live 75-80 miles away from Grand Forks. Anytime we have a Basketball or Football game the same weekend as hockey I usually end up getting a hotel for the weekend and attend all events if their scheduling allows so save the Hockey only fan bit. I would go to more basketball games but Thursday nights usually don't work for me. 

[UND1983]

11 minutes ago, petey23 said:

So you are accusing them of taking the money? I don't think anyone has shown that one nickel has left campus.

Well yah it never left campus.  But what expenses are they covering with UND revenue?  Nobody knows.  It could change every month if they wanted so.

[petey23]

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that’s what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.” Drinks for the ten now cost just $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men– the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share? They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. “I only got a dollar out of the $20,” declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, “but he got $10!” “Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I!” “That’s true!!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!” “Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison. “We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!”

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill! And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[petey23]

26 minutes ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Wouldn’t also be fair to point out the increase in expenses, including labor, supplies and the like.

Assuming more revenue = more net profit is again, quite foolish.

The next thing that will happen is people will believe if we cut taxes that tax revenue will decrease.

[UNDBIZ]

31 minutes ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Wouldn’t also be fair to point out the increase in expenses, including labor, supplies and the like.

Assuming more revenue = more net profit is again, quite foolish.

Sure, but UND had those same expense increases and had their budget slashed 15-20% by the state. 

Asking REA to share a little in the pain isn't that crazy. 

[UND1983]

1 hour ago, petey23 said:

The next thing that will happen is people will believe if we cut taxes that tax revenue will decrease.

You and several others have never addressed a chief concern that I believe MK is also asking about.  

How does MK know what the REA is doing with UND's revenue they are taking?  This is important because ultimately whatever is left over is given back to UND.  

 

[BarnWinterSportsEngelstad]

12 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

When is/was The Betty paid off? 

 

10 hours ago, jdub27 said:

2020

 

The Betty bond being paid of in 2020 is great news, wonder what the annual payment is? After this final payment the 52% ticket take might be renegotiated?

Anyone know what the % of ticket sales split was in place when The Ralph opened in the fall of 2001, that would have been before The Betty was built?

[BarnWinterSportsEngelstad]

6 hours ago, petey23 said:

I am too lazy to go through the financial reports. They have been "doctored" in the past to cover women's hockey expenses and the like so not sure how accurate they are anyway.

Keep it simple, yes or no questions.

Has UND hockey outspent the money their program has brought to the University?

Has football outspent the money their program has brought to the University?

Has Men's Basketball outspent the money their program brought to the University?

Has Women's Basketball outspent the money their program brought to the University?

Has Volleyball outspent the money their program brought to the University?

For the record, I have season tickets for hockey, I don't have season tickets for football but have attended about 75-80% of our home games over the last 10-12 years. I don't have season tickets for Men's Basketball but have attended about 20-25% of our home games over the last 8-10 years. I live 75-80 miles away from Grand Forks. Anytime we have a Basketball or Football game the same weekend as hockey I usually end up getting a hotel for the weekend and attend all events if their scheduling allows so save the Hockey only fan bit. I would go to more basketball games but Thursday nights usually don't work for me. 

Just a taught here.  If UND AD received a great majority of the FB ticket sales or even all of the about $.9M in total FB ticket sales, would it change the ability of more money to be spent on FB. Probably not, when FB would still outspend the money their program brought in.  UND has been covering the shortfall in the AD in years past and this will be a large challenge for UND to do in the near future. 

[BarnWinterSportsEngelstad]

13 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

And I don't even get named as having contributed to that article.
Most of that is stuff I put into this thread over the last couple weeks. 

Ya, you are a good week ahead of the GF Herald. 

The real concern here seems to be understanding of the makeup of The Ralph (3 non-profit corps) and how it works with the UND AD.

Strinden claims all $ stay within The Ralph and AD. Records show UND covers the AD's annual shortfall. Does The Ralph have funds set aside, can they pay more to the AD? Kennedy seems to be trying to get more funds transferred to AD, which probably would offset UND's $ given to the AD each year to balance their budget. In this case, these additional $ would probably not be available for any sport to spend?

Maybe the bond taken out to build The Betty is paid off in 2020? More potential then.

 

[siouxkid12]

On 5/18/2018 at 6:08 PM, MafiaMan said:

Then why put it on the damn floor or in the carpet?  

This only became an issue when Florida State and Miami took turns stomping on each other's logos at midfield circa 1995-2000 and now all of a sudden, we can't put logos on courts or fields...or carpets.

That is a question I've always asked. If you are not supposed to step on the logo why have it? To me it seems stupid....

[siouxkid12]

7 hours ago, BarnWinterSportsEngelstad said:

Ya, you are a good week ahead of the GF Herald. 

The real concern here seems to be understanding of the makeup of The Ralph (3 non-profit corps) and how it works with the UND AD.

Strinden claims all $ stay within The Ralph and AD. Records show UND covers the AD's annual shortfall. Does The Ralph have funds set aside, can they pay more to the AD? Kennedy seems to be trying to get more funds transferred to AD, which probably would offset UND's $ given to the AD each year to balance their budget. In this case, these additional $ would probably not be available for any sport to spend?

Maybe the bond taken out to build The Betty is paid off in 2020? More potential then.

 

The real concern here is, why won't the herald do their job? This is reason people don't trust the media anymore, lazy work and either no information or half-a$$ed information.

[siouxkid12]

14 hours ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Wouldn’t also be fair to point out the increase in expenses, including labor, supplies and the like.

Assuming more revenue = more net profit is again, quite foolish.

Wouldn't it also be fair to point out the increase in expenses with the move from D2 to D1.

[The Sicatoka]

14 hours ago, dlsiouxfan said:

They need to open up the books and provide a full accounting. 

Well, Form 990 is a good first look. That's a pseudo- tax return (for not for profits who don't have to pay taxes).

However, knowing that the UND CFO is on one of the four not for profits that oversee the arena, wouldn't the CFO be able to look in? 

[petey23]

12 minutes ago, siouxkid12 said:

Wouldn't it also be fair to point out the increase in expenses with the move from D2 to D1.

Sure. Which was hopefully accounted for by the Athletic Department and Administration in looking at the money that would be required when we decided to go Division 1. 

[The Sicatoka]

16 minutes ago, siouxkid12 said:

The real concern here is, why won't the herald do their job? 

No comment.  

(Brad, Tom, et al, c'mon man, all in fun.  ) 

 

That said, in all fairness I didn't know about Form 990 and who files it and that's it is publicly available until about a decade ago. 

[BobIwabuchiFan]

14 hours ago, petey23 said:

I am too lazy to go through the financial reports. They have been "doctored" in the past to cover women's hockey expenses and the like so not sure how accurate they are anyway.

Keep it simple, yes or no questions.

Has UND hockey outspent the money their program has brought to the University?

Has football outspent the money their program has brought to the University?

Has Men's Basketball outspent the money their program brought to the University?

Has Women's Basketball outspent the money their program brought to the University?

Has Volleyball outspent the money their program brought to the University?

For the record, I have season tickets for hockey, I don't have season tickets for football but have attended about 75-80% of our home games over the last 10-12 years. I don't have season tickets for Men's Basketball but have attended about 20-25% of our home games over the last 8-10 years. I live 75-80 miles away from Grand Forks. Anytime we have a Basketball or Football game the same weekend as hockey I usually end up getting a hotel for the weekend and attend all events if their scheduling allows so save the Hockey only fan bit. I would go to more basketball games but Thursday nights usually don't work for me. 

I think these are fair questions, but you are most likely not going to get honest answers from anyone on this board.  The only one that has a chance of matching or showing a profit is the Mens Hockey Program and to a lot of people on this board it pains them greatly to have to recognize this fact.  Additionally, it probably pains them even more to realize the football program has a huge hole to dig out of and it's not going to be done by one or two winning seasons, but rather a decade of excellence that puts significant amounts of fans in the seats and brings donors back to the program.  Your last paragraph is the key as its probably the modus operandi of a majority of the fans who support UND...Primary is the hockey program because of the winning history and the arena and any $s and time left over people will decide to go to another sport on campus if it doesn't conflict with the Hockey games. So, the Hockey program is the primary driver for athletic spending by alumni and fans - doesn't mean it will be true forever, but it's true now.

I used to be a hockey season ticket holder, but kids and their sports don't mix well with making all the weekend games and I'm also a Football tailgater with my own bus and go to the football games for every home game and I can tell  you the fan support for football is diametrically different than the hockey crowd.  The tailgating in my mind is more of a foodie/drink gathering of friends and there is a considerable amount of people who just show up to the tailgating and don't even go to the game...I've seen people turn football tickets down for free at the tailgating events for football and I would never see this happen if it was for a hockey game - sad, but true.

Lastly, anyone who comes on here and trashes the Engelstad Family or Foundation and believes whole-heartedly what President Kennedy is saying on the current issue should take a few steps back and ask themselves how much loyalty Mr. Kennedy has shown to the University in the last 18 months versus the loyalty given the last 40+ years from the Engelstad family....I think many people know a shakedown when they see it and my opinion Mr. Kennedy doesn't have too many months left at the University.

[UND1983]

Because the Engelstads have been around for 40+ years that means they are telling the truth, MK isn't, and we should believe them.  Got it.  Cause that's definitely how it works in Vegas, I am sure.

 

[jdub27]

A few points:

• We keep hearing about hockey is so profitable yet no one can explain why 52% of football ticket revenue is needed to support operations of the REA/BESC and apparently MK is the bad guy for wanting to renegotiate an almost two decade old deal that is set up to be renegotiated every year.
• If hockey is paying 52% of their ticket revenue to the REA, then they aren't profitable through ticket sales.
• The REA was set up to support all of UND athletics, ignoring that and the fact that the hockey program is where it is only because of an extraordinary outside gift is just changing the narrative from reality.

[Oxbow6]

24 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

Because the Engelstads have been around for 40+ years that means they are telling the truth, MK isn't, and we should believe them.  Got it.  Cause that's definitely how it works in Vegas, I am sure.

 

Only if MK wasn't a regular on ZipRecruiter....................................

[Siouxperfan7]

To sum up, UND signed a contract with REA and the Engelstad Foundation 17 years ago.  This contract is to be reviewed every year.  Previous Presidents have just signed it with no issue and business goes on as usual.  There is a reason that the deal was setup to be negotiated and agreed upon every year.  To adjust to changes that are inevitable to happen.  Since 2001, UND has moved all sports to Division 1, gone through a complete re branding of it's athletic program with the adoption of a new name and logo, and has had budget cuts that has forced programs to be completely cut.  So so say things aren't the same as they were in 2001 is an understatement.  Kennedy recognizes this and simply suggests that the deal be re negotiated so that the intent of the "gift" can serve its initial purpose and that is to benefit the University of North Dakota.  Asking that UND received more in ticket revenue (especially football), helping UND with their re branding campaign by displaying the new logo more, and inquiring on where all the extra revenue goes(that is supposed to go to the University) are not outlandish things to bring up.  

[jdub27]

Just now, Oxbow6 said:

Only if MK wasn't a regular on ZipRecruiter....................................

UND is so unlucky to have a president that the search committee for the school with the largest undergrad enrollment in the nation approached him to apply. What a bum for looking at tripling his salary and advancing his career. UND should definitely stick with either academia who are looking for their last job before retiring (which has recently worked out much better for them) or someone who is content on being at UND until they retire. 

[Oxbow6]

14 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

A few points:

• We keep hearing about hockey is so profitable yet no one can explain why 52% of football ticket revenue is needed to support operations of the REA/BESC.
• If hockey is paying 52% of their ticket revenue to the REA, then they aren't profitable through ticket sales.
• The REA was set up to support all of UND athletics, ignoring that and the fact that the hockey program is where it is only because of an extraordinary outside gift is just changing the narrative from reality.

Might be an easy fix at this point in time is for each program, FB and hockey, just to sustain itself on it's own via total revenue generated and donations. Pretty sure the hockey program can make of go of it this way and the FB program would get a huge boost by capturing all their ticket revenue at 100% and whatever other revenue dollars that can be accounted for from that program. Might be too simplistic but maybe it could work.

[jdub27]

8 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

Might be an easy fix at this point in time for each program, FB and hockey, just to sustain itself on it's own via total revenue generated and donations. Pretty sure the hockey program can make of go if it this way and the FB program would get a huge boost by capturing all their ticket revenue at 100% and whatever other revenue dollars that can be accounted for from that program. Might be too simplistic but maybe it could work.

Ignoring point 3 already. 

If UND is going to be a "hockey" school, then the hockey program is going to have to support other sports. I don't see NDSU taking significant issue with their football team helping support their other sports.

The issue is that hockey is pretty maxed out at UND, so increased revenue for the department needs to come from FB, MBB, WBB and VB. Because of the revenue share with the REA, they haven't taken it on the chin to the level the rest of the athletic department has, which has only exacerbated the problem elsewhere. Kind of makes it hard to improve certain programs while they are shouldering the cuts for others while already at a disadvantage. Yes, hockey needs to remain successful because it is a revenue driver, but that doesn't mean they are untouchable and without question.