SHAC vs. Betty

[Cratter]

 The BSA will have a much better fan experience than the Betty. 

They a very wide ring at the top of the seats that runs 3/4 of the arena that makes socializing (balcony rails over looking the bowl like the end catwalk at alerus), bathrooms, concessions, much easier to navigate or just gazing out the large window that covers one side of the arena both stories...the only upside of the Betty is the lounge area in the middle that overlooks the court, but the BSA also has that (not seen in the pictures).

[darell1976]

Anyone know the seating capacity of the SHAC compared to the BSA?

[sprig]

9 hours ago, Cratter said:

 The BSA will have a much better fan experience than the Betty. 

They a very wide ring at the top of the seats that runs 3/4 of the arena that makes socializing (balcony rails over looking the bowl like the end catwalk at alerus), bathrooms, concessions, much easier to navigate or just gazing out the large window that covers one side of the arena both stories...the only upside of the Betty is the lounge area in the middle that overlooks the court, but the BSA also has that (not seen in the pictures).

No more lounge at the Betty, at least no more booze sold in that area.

[gfhockey]

Wtf why no lounge

[Siouxperfan7]

I guess it's worth noting that USD is opening their new Sanford Coyote Sports Center this year as well.  As far as upgrades go from what they had before, this one may be bigger than the BSA.  This is one heck of a nice basketball facility!!

[darell1976]

4 hours ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

I guess it's worth noting that USD is opening their new Sanford Coyote Sports Center this year as well.  As far as upgrades go from what they had before, this one may be bigger than the BSA.  This is one heck of a nice basketball facility!!

Complete with championship banners hang.....oh wait. 

[Hammersmith]

14 hours ago, darell1976 said:

Anyone know the seating capacity of the SHAC compared to the BSA?

BSA (original): ~8000 (take this number with a big grain of salt; more likely no more than 7000 at its max)

BSA (pre-remodel): 5830

SHAC: 5700

[darell1976]

33 minutes ago, Hammersmith said:

BSA (original): ~8000 (take this number with a big grain of salt; more likely no more than 7000 at its max)

BSA (pre-remodel): 5830

SHAC: 5700

From 8000 to 5700? With the success of their program in the dance, I can see calls for an expansion.

[Cratter]

14 hours ago, sprig said:

No more lounge at the Betty, at least no more booze sold in that area.

Whhhhaaatttt?!

[sprig]

8 hours ago, Cratter said:

Whhhhaaatttt?!

Beer stand behind the bleachers only.  Not sure what the plans are for the space that was the lounge.

[UNDBIZ]

1 hour ago, sprig said:

Beer stand behind the bleachers only.  Not sure what the plans are for the space that was the lounge.

Well that sucks. 

[gfhockey]

That really sucks 

[southpaw]

16 hours ago, darell1976 said:

From 8000 to 5700? With the success of their program in the dance, I can see calls for an expansion.

That success hasn't transferred to significant attendance boost, although that is most likely because they were playing off-campus.  The bandwagon fans that joined up when football started doing well haven't really transitioned over to any other sports.

[teamsioux]

The north stand in the lounge was never opened last year.  Both stands were boarded up by the time UND hosted the postseason  BB tourney games in March.  So far at VB games this fall it looks like nothing has been done since.

[JohnboyND7]

17 hours ago, darell1976 said:

From 8000 to 5700? With the success of their program in the dance, I can see calls for an expansion.

Doubtful. Perfect size

[UND92]

When the Betty was first proposed, it was estimated to hold 4,200.  By taking out the Lounge area and eventually filling that space with seats, it should get closer to 4,200.

[Siouxperfan7]

41 minutes ago, UND92 said:

When the Betty was first proposed, it was estimated to hold 4,200.  By taking out the Lounge area and eventually filling that space with seats, it should get closer to 4,200.

I wish they would somehow replace that lounge area with seats.  

[Hammersmith]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 6:32 PM, darell1976 said:

From 8000 to 5700? With the success of their program in the dance, I can see calls for an expansion.

Again, take that 8k number with a huge grain of salt. Those were estimated crowds in those days, and there are big questions as to how accurate those estimates were. When the BSA switched from estimated to ticketed attendance, that number dropped dramatically overnight. Take that for what you will. Besides, those were the days of M/W doubleheaders on Friday and Saturday nights. Those days aren't coming back.

5700 is indeed a bit too small, but expansion is not an option in the current structure. The best capacity for NDSU would be around 8000 to allow for plenty of growth, but it will take quite awhile for NDSU basketball to need that kind of space on a regular basis. I think we'd need a Sweet Sixteen run and probably a better conference(no, that doesn't mean the Big Sky or the WAC  ) It's not really the 5700 that's the problem, it's the lack of good luxury seating. But there just wasn't a way to do it within the current structure. (Remember that keeping the steel saved at least $12M.)

[Hammersmith]

10 hours ago, southpaw said:

That success hasn't transferred to significant attendance boost, although that is most likely because they were playing off-campus.  The bandwagon fans that joined up when football started doing well haven't really transitioned over to any other sports.

Yep. It's hard to draw an accurate conclusion, but about 5k is the most likely best-case for now. The accuracy problem comes from the BSA being a miserable place to watch a game, to an off-campus facility, to a new facility with the novelty factor. I could see us averaging 5500 this season, but is that a real demand or just an artifact of a brand new facility? Only time will tell.

I think MBB was actually doing better before the football run. Those runs have drained a lot of money and time out of the wallets and schedules of fans. Both of our schools have very passionate fanbases, but they aren't particularly large. At least by medium/big DI standards.

[zonadub]

50 minutes ago, Hammersmith said:

... probably a better conference (no, that doesn't mean the Big Sky or the WAC  ) ...

This runs counter to the argument that UND would be so much better off in the Summit against old NCC rivals NDSU, USD, SDSU AND Omaha. As has been posted several times on the board, UND's attendance really doesn't go up that much unless it's NDSU. As long as Jones settles for second/third in the conference, it won't matter if UND is in the Bg Sky or the Summit or the WAC.

[Hammersmith]

2 minutes ago, zonadub said:

This runs counter to the argument that UND would be so much better off in the Summit against old NCC rivals NDSU, USD, SDSU AND Omaha. As has been posted several times on the board, UND's attendance really doesn't go up that much unless it's NDSU. As long as Jones settles for second/third in the conference, it won't matter if UND is in the Bg Sky or the Summit or the WAC.

There's a big difference between going from 2k to 3.5k, and going from 3.5k to 7k. You need to face that UND will never be a strong basketball school. You don't have a large enough fanbase to support two major sports in the same season. As long as hockey is king, basketball will never be big. The fanbase size problem is no different at NDSU. Our advantage in this particular case is that our #1 sport does not directly compete with basketball, though football playoffs do mean some overlap.

I would argue that UND's MBB ceiling is about where NDSU is now. But I'd also argue that NDSU has one or maybe two more possible steps beyond the current level. I'm pretty confident about my views, but feel free to disagree. I do think the Summit would be a modest upgrade for you guys and get you near that 3k(average) neighborhood.

[zonadub]

I don't disagree that seeing old NCC foes more regularly would help UND attendance for MBB, WBB, VB and other sports. My comment was more directed at those on this board who seem to think that joining the Summit would be the answer to UND's financial shortfall. I understand that it would allow more bus trips, but not confident it would mean an increase in gate receipts.

Up until this IAC review, almost all (disclaimer - yes, there have been some UND posters too) of the calls for UND to join the Summit feel like they have come from Bison fans. Now, suddenly, there is this wave of support for UND to move to the Summit.

There are only a couple of things to overcome here, but they are pretty big.

The Big Sky would have to allow UND to leave the conference only a handful of years after it rescued UND from FCS independence when the MVFC was not gong to invite the Sioux while allowing football to stay. I don't want to take the time to go searching for it, but I did read the Big Sky agreement with Idaho that specifically named North Dakota as one of 3 schools that would allow them to cancel the move. It's nice to be wanted. 

UND needs a football home, and it doesn't appear that the Summit would break off from the MVFC to form its own football conference. There has been no invitation from the MVFC, or the Summit for that matter, for UND to join the conference, and history has not trended in that direction.

Yes, the Summit/MVFC has had success lately, but the Big Sky has a solid history and the affiliation differentiates UND from the other Dakota schools. It would be nice if USD hadn't joined the Summit/MVFC and left UND on an island alone, but a 14 team FCS/mid-major conference is likely to reorganize/break up sooner rather than later and an affiliation with the Montanas and Idaho feels like it has a great future... maybe one that NDSU will also want to join.

[bincitysioux]

7 hours ago, zonadub said:

I don't disagree that seeing old NCC foes more regularly would help UND attendance for MBB, WBB, VB and other sports. My comment was more directed at those on this board who seem to think that joining the Summit would be the answer to UND's financial shortfall. I understand that it would allow more bus trips, but not confident it would mean an increase in gate receipts.

Up until this IAC review, almost all (disclaimer - yes, there have been some UND posters too) of the calls for UND to join the Summit feel like they have come from Bison fans. Now, suddenly, there is this wave of support for UND to move to the Summit.

There are only a couple of things to overcome here, but they are pretty big.

The Big Sky would have to allow UND to leave the conference only a handful of years after it rescued UND from FCS independence when the MVFC was not gong to invite the Sioux while allowing football to stay. I don't want to take the time to go searching for it, but I did read the Big Sky agreement with Idaho that specifically named North Dakota as one of 3 schools that would allow them to cancel the move. It's nice to be wanted. 

UND needs a football home, and it doesn't appear that the Summit would break off from the MVFC to form its own football conference. There has been no invitation from the MVFC, or the Summit for that matter, for UND to join the conference, and history has not trended in that direction.

Yes, the Summit/MVFC has had success lately, but the Big Sky has a solid history and the affiliation differentiates UND from the other Dakota schools. It would be nice if USD hadn't joined the Summit/MVFC and left UND on an island alone, but a 14 team FCS/mid-major conference is likely to reorganize/break up sooner rather than later and an affiliation with the Montanas and Idaho feels like it has a great future... maybe one that NDSU will also want to join.

Outstanding!

 

[siouxfan512]

8 hours ago, zonadub said:

I don't disagree that seeing old NCC foes more regularly would help UND attendance for MBB, WBB, VB and other sports. My comment was more directed at those on this board who seem to think that joining the Summit would be the answer to UND's financial shortfall. I understand that it would allow more bus trips, but not confident it would mean an increase in gate receipts.

Up until this IAC review, almost all (disclaimer - yes, there have been some UND posters too) of the calls for UND to join the Summit feel like they have come from Bison fans. Now, suddenly, there is this wave of support for UND to move to the Summit.

There are only a couple of things to overcome here, but they are pretty big.

The Big Sky would have to allow UND to leave the conference only a handful of years after it rescued UND from FCS independence when the MVFC was not gong to invite the Sioux while allowing football to stay. I don't want to take the time to go searching for it, but I did read the Big Sky agreement with Idaho that specifically named North Dakota as one of 3 schools that would allow them to cancel the move. It's nice to be wanted. 

UND needs a football home, and it doesn't appear that the Summit would break off from the MVFC to form its own football conference. There has been no invitation from the MVFC, or the Summit for that matter, for UND to join the conference, and history has not trended in that direction.

Yes, the Summit/MVFC has had success lately, but the Big Sky has a solid history and the affiliation differentiates UND from the other Dakota schools. It would be nice if USD hadn't joined the Summit/MVFC and left UND on an island alone, but a 14 team FCS/mid-major conference is likely to reorganize/break up sooner rather than later and an affiliation with the Montanas and Idaho feels like it has a great future... maybe one that NDSU will also want to join.

I've asked this before, and I'm not sure I ever received a real answer, but what is the opposition to joining the summit? I for one, do like the Big Sky ... for the most part. About half the teams intrigue me, there are a few that don't, but overall I'm not don't know what the big difference is between Big Sky and Summit .... particularly for basketball.

Again, to be clear, I do like the Big Sky conference and am not calling for a conference change, but am inquiring about it. Big Sky and Summit both get an entry into the NCAA tourney. Summit would allow for less travel expenses. Big Sky would keep you with the one overall conference affiliation. Is it the opinion of most or some, that Summit Basketball isn't as talented as Big Sky? I'm not a great basketball mind, so I have no clue, but it seems that the Summit has done better than the Big Sky in terms of NCAA performances, at least recently.

Obviously, invitations and discussions need to be had before a conference move were to take place, just curious what the opposition is to the Summit. Personally I think you try to stick in the Big Sky, but eliminate some sports. The athletic department is just stretch too thin. I don't like eliminating sports or opportunities for kids, but that may just be the reality UND has to face.

[The Sicatoka]

12 hours ago, Hammersmith said:

Again, take that 8k number with a huge grain of salt. Those were estimated crowds in those days, ... 

Probably the same folks that estimated some of those old Dakota Field crowds back in the day.

These days I can believe NDSU attendance numbers.