UND Athletics Letter

[SiouxTupa]

For those of you who got it, you've seen this, but those who haven't should read it.

I have been thinking of writing and expressing my feelings since I returned from Florence, Alabama, and the national championship football game. The comments from President Kupchella and his desire to improve conduct at UND athletic events make it imperative that I write these comments now. Let me start by saying I am so proud of the majority of our fans and students and truly enjoy the many compliments given the crowd support our teams are so fortunate to receive. We are all very lucky to have so many championship level teams to support and to have the chance to watch our great athletes perform. In many ways, others envy our teams

[choyt3]

Impressive letter from Mr. Thomas. Looks to me like the ball is in the students' court.

As a former UND student that was as loud and obnoxious as anyone else, I want to agree with Mr. Thomas that indeed perspective changes once you "grow up" and begin to bring your family to UND events. This topic was discussed earlier. Last week, I believe. It comes up every year, though, and it doesn't seem to sink in with some people. I think the most significant issue is the LACK OF RESPECT for people around you. Yes, I do think it is that simple.

SiouxTupa,

It was good of you to post this in it's own thread. It is significant enough to not get lost in the oblivion of some other thread.

[Diggler]

Look at the difference between the way Thomas handled the situation and the way Kupchella did. While Roger is asking the students to do something, he is pleasant about it. He brings up positive as well as negative aspects. As opposed to Kupchella who just seems to bring up the negative aspects. I am much more willing to try to quit swearing and so on because of a letter like this than I would be for what Kupchella did. Hopefully something can work out and other people will become more involved more often. It's no fun when we need that stupid make some noise graphic to get 50% of the people off their butts.

[Cratter]

Let's ask ourselves how did UND students turn out differently than other institutes? Is it locale? Ethics? Part of me has to think the administration should take some responsibility for the students actions. Wisconsin has, as many people know, done a wonderful job at their hockey games with the "Crease Creations."

[beersong]

Wow, what a great letter. I'd be proud to have him as my AD. He addresses both sides of the issue and leaves it up to the students to get it figured out.

Sioux students: it can be done. When I started at tUMD we had a very, very vulgar section. It was always f that and f this, and sh this and sh that. It was frankly embarrasing being a part of it. It didn't make it any louder in the arena. It just made locals more angry with us and actually helped them NOT to cheer. In the last 4 years we have gotten it turned around. We NEVER swear in unison anymore - if someone throws out an F bomb they are immediately escorted out of the arena. And we are actually much LOUDER than ever before. It can be done, but Mr. Thomas is right - it's all up to the students themselves if they want to change.

[PCM]

I don't think that blaming anyone will solve anything. The fact is, the situation has gotten out of hand to the point where it could hurt UND both athletically and academically. People need to work together to start fixing the problem rather than pointing fingers.

[PCM]

It can be done, but Mr. Thomas is right - it's all up to the students themselves if they want to change.

Thanks for your comments, beersong. I've never understood why people think that swearng in unison is so intimidating. Do they think that opposing players and the officials have never heard those words before?

Heck, most Sioux fans will say that there's nothing more annoying than hearing Gophers fans en masse doing the Minnesota rouser in unison. And I'm pretty sure that there are no swear words in that cheer.

[Marty]

I agree and disagree with Thomas at the same time. I don't think any sporting event is a place to swear or curse. On the other hand, not letting the students stand up during play is absurd. Also, I have can hear some of what the students chant during games and it is no worse than any other place. I have been to other college hockey arenas and the students at UND are not as bad as some students. Once again, I don't think swearing is appropriate at anyplace but making fun of fans and players from visiting teams is extremely appropriate.

[dagies]

I agree and disagree with Thomas at the same time. I don't think any sporting event is a place to swear or curse. On the other hand, not letting the students stand up during play is absurd. Also, I have can hear some of what the students chant during games and it is no worse than any other place. I have been to other college hockey arenas and the students at UND are not as bad as some students. Once again, I don't think swearing is appropriate at anyplace but making fun of fans and players from visiting teams is extremely appropriate.

Let's look at this individual parts.

On the other hand, not letting the students stand up during play is absurd.

Now, this has been discussed before. It has to do with blocking the view of other spectators in other sections. I'm already on record saying I would rather stand than sit at a game, but not everyone is that way. It's a respect issue for those around you, and it's an accomodation. Plus, it's not part of the vulgarity issue so that's all I'll say.

Also, I have can hear some of what the students chant during games and it is no worse than any other place.  I have been to other college hockey arenas and the students at UND are not as bad as some students.

Didn't Roger allow this could be the case but appeal to UND fans to rise above the rest? Roger talked about "pride" and I think that is a key point.

Once again, I don't think swearing is appropriate at anyplace but making fun of fans and players from visiting teams is extremely appropriate.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU! But it can be done without profanity and vulgarity. It can still be edgy.

[Goon]

I think it is going to be hard to just say ok no more profanity. How do you find out who is using profanity, you just can't throw out the whole student section, nor would I want them to do that.

I think the Students help make the arena loud and get the fans going so the place doesn't sound like a morgue.

[jimdahl]

Coming from UW last weekend (best home crowd in the WCHA, in my opinion), I look to the Kohl Center as an example of how it can be done. Though there certainly was some profanity ("A-hole" against Blais, etc...), it was overwhelmed by the other cheers. The amazing thing about the "clean" cheers is that the ENTIRE arena participates. Instead of 2000 people swearing, you get 15,000 people counting, "1...2...3... we want more", or singing Varsity. PCM's example of M-I-N-N-E-S-O-T-A is another good one.

Let me assure you, as a guest in an unfriendly confine this weekend, that the entire crowd chanting/singing a cheer (for which a preqrequisite is that it be clean) is much more intimidating than the students swearing. Clearly the students will be a little edgier at times, but they're also the only group that can be the leaders of trying to improve the atmosphere and get the rest of the crowd more into the game.

[Diggler]

I think the solution is to try to do the whole meeting thing all over again, this time though both sides need to fulfill their promises. The first time if the students cut out the swear the AD/REA was going to do a bunch of things. It was a good plan but then the AD/REA didn't do what they said they would. The students as a result said screw it, if they aren't gonna live up to the agreement, why should we? I'm not arguing whether this was right or wrong, I'm just saying that this is what happened.

I think instead of doing "who's he, he sucks", everyone should just sieve the goalie during the entire introduction. That newspaper thing we did a couple years ago was lame. Also they should cut the music during warmups, as long as the students promise to keep the swearing under control. While no one else will be doing taunting, this is one of the funnest things to do for students. Getting guys mad at you is great.

[Fedorov]

I think instead of doing "who's he, he sucks", everyone should just sieve the goalie during the entire introduction.

That is what the Badgers do, and I don't think we should copy them. We should be able to think of something more creative than that.

[Diggler]

That is what the Badgers do, and I don't think we should copy them. We should be able to think of something more creative than that.

Dang. I thought of this a couple weeks ago and thought I was so smart. Guess that was my first mistake. Stupid BADgers ruining everything.

You think of something then buddy! I'm fresh out of ideas.

[Goon]

I think instead of doing "who's he, he sucks...----Snip

One thing I have notice is that the band has stopped playing over the "Who's he, he sucks..."

[Fedorov]

Dang. I thought of this a couple weeks ago and thought I was so smart. Guess that was my first mistake. Stupid BADgers ruining everything.

You think of something then buddy! I'm fresh out of ideas.

We could use it somehow. I would think YaneA could think of something with how creative she is. The only thing that I can think of tonight that would be somewhat intimidating, is if the whole crowd repeatedly yelled, "Sieve" for the goalie, "Swiss Cheese Defense" for the defensemen, and "Fifth Line Players" for the forwards. I'm sure there are people that are much more creative than I am.

[Smoggy]

One thing I have notice is that the band has stopped playing over the "Who's he, he sucks..."

I think we tried that for a weekend back in the old Ralph. I never had to play in the new Ralph.

I was just reading Sports Illustrated's piece on the state of Michigan from Feb. 9, 2004 (the Tom Brady cover). The article talks about the Michigan/Michigan St. hockey rivalry. This is the first paragraph:

"There are certain things a University of Michigan student might be expected to memorize in his years in Ann Arbor: an e.e. cummings poem, a mathematical formula or two, a few economic principles and the cheer that serenaded Michigan State defenseman Jared Nightingale at Yost Ice Arena in the first period of a game last Valentine's Day. As Nightingale stepped into the penalty box, the student sections on the opposite side of the rink roared - as they regularly do - 'See ya? Chump, d--k, wuss, d-----bag, a--hole, p--ck, cheater, b--ch, whore, c------ker.' While embarrassingly profane, the chant was easier on the ears than the 2 1/2 hours of abuse directed at Spartans goalie Matt Migliaccio, who, Michigan fan sentiment notwithstanding, was neither a sieve nor ugly."

The letters dashed out was how it appeared in SI. Personally, I don't want UND being known in this way. I don't know what makes people look worse; this Michigan article or ND's drinking while you curl article. This is also a reason why so many people hate the U of Michigan.

[Smoggy]

We could use it somehow. I would think YaneA could think of something with how creative she is. The only thing that I can think of tonight that would be somewhat intimidating, is if the whole crowd repeatedly yelled, "Sieve" for the goalie, "Swiss Cheese Defense" for the defensemen, and "Fifth Line Players" for the forwards. I'm sure there are people that are much more creative than I am.

Make it funny and the people will follow.

[jojordan23]

Here's a suggestion, and the only reason I mention this is because of the possible intimidation factor. What if, instead of the "Who's he, he #$%*..." chant, ALL of the Sioux fans in the arena start chanting, "Let's Go Sioux", during the other teams intros? The drummers in the band could keep the beat, and I think that would get really loud if we were able to get this to happen...

[CoteauRinkRat]

RT does go about this in a lot better fashion than Kupchella. It is a lot easier to understand and swallow when it is said in a way that isn't so one-sided.

[The Sicatoka]

I'm telling you guys ....

Scott Hennen on the PA: Starting in goal for Inept State, #1, Joe Blow.

11,406 Sioux fans: Non-factor!

And without the $#!+ (and the sucks) you'll have a much better shot at 11,406 than you do today.

[Rowdy Sioux]

Two years ago when they tried the no swearing thing, we gave it a try and failed but maybe we could try again. We said "Dean didn't want you," during the starting line ups as many of the other players probably looked at UND.

[YaneA]

Roger Thomas' letter is great! Personally, I'm a fan of free speech but even I get turned off by too much indiscriminate, pointless vulgarity. This season, I've spent countless hours making up signs for hockey games because my hope is having funny, creative posters would be one way our student fans could distinguish themselves. This week, I also took the time (I can't say "went to the trouble" because it's no trouble at all) of making a bunch of rally hats, which as one of the Badger faithful correctly surmised, are "real pretty." I'll give these away to the students Friday night.

We can start another thread of suggestions for inventive, clean chants and cheers and pour all the creativity we collectively possess into it. But if the students don't want to adopt any of the ideas, the effort goes to waste. Already the student section has some completely acceptable chants, "Goalie/Sieve" and "You Got Lucky" come immediately to mind. Not a big fan of the "What's That Spell" stuff because after the first 40 times you hear it, it tends to lose it's magic, but maybe that's just me. And, that variety of chant is open to criticism for being sexualized.

I've suggested before, but the cadence of it needs some work, that for opposing player intros, we chant, "Who's he? A fine fellow I'm sure." It's unexpected and, just a wee bit sarcastic. Or, you could repeat the player's name with just a little bit of derision in your voice or make some play on his name: "At defense, Joey Crabb. Crowd: Hi, JO-WEEE" or "For the Tigers in Goal, Matt Zaba. Crowd: Zaba-Daba-DO!" You'd have to work this out before hand but, hey, the rosters are free for the taking on USCHO. When our own players are introduced, what I do is yell out the players name with the same inflection Hennen uses, followed by, a "Let's go, Bo," for example. Before the puck drops, I yell, "Light 'em up." If we've fallen behind, "Take Back the Ice!" With a lead to start the third, "Shut the door." None of these are particularly brilliant, all are clean to the point of reverence and if 11,500 people were chanting them instead of just me, it could be a beautiful thing. I don't think it takes very many people to get a chant started. Two hockey parents who sit in my section are the ones who usually start the "Let's go Sioux" cheer that, like the wave, picks up steam around the arena.

[dagies]

I think YaneA deserves a lot of credit for all the time put in on behalf of the enjoyment of so many thousands at the rink. It's in the proper spirit.

[Stack]

When I was in Florence this year the number one obstacle I as a UND fan had to overcome was the issues that our fans had harrassed their fans in a vulgar and racist manner two weeks prior.

We can all sit here and say "Yeah but that wasn't me, it was just some drunks". The reality is that school administration as well as the NCAA administration views this as being a student problem and they will correct it. I believe the choice is simple: either we clean it up or they will do it for us.

Things that have been done at other schools to force this cleanup:

1. Giving breathalyzers at the doors to all underage attendees and arresting any that have a trace of alcohol on their breath. The idea here is to keep out the drunk students.

2. Immediately remove any person in attendance that swears during the game. Some arenas have placed people amongst the fans to act as stool pigeons during the game and report all instances.

3. Move the student section completely to the top section so that their chants are not heard on the ice.

These are some things that have been tried and have usually failed because they have generated so much animosity from the students.

The reality is that we want the students to yell their heads off especially since the old folk are reluctant to. But in a manner that is not offensive to other people. Until this happens be prepared for just about anything.

I guess the best way is for each of us to monitor our own behavior and with peer pressure we can reduce the vulgarity and racist comments. Enjoy the game without being a jerk. If not they'll just start kicking people out. I truly believe they are willing to have a student section sit empty rather than have this atmosphere at the arenas. Whether you feel it's right or not, the Unversity views this as a student problem and not an overall fan problem.