petey23 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 The minor leagues seem to have a similar breakdown, so using percentages seems to be the best way to compare all of professional hockey with all of professional football. How else are you going to compare between sports? You want total players? Approximately 300 NHL players in 2011-2012 came from the NCAA out of less than 1,000 total NHL players. In 2012, 162 players in the NFL came from FCS schools out of almost 2,000 total NFL players. As far as Canadian versus others, I don't remember exact numbers but I believe that Canadian juniors supply somewhere in the mid to upper 40% range and everyone else is around 20%. I think that 2011-2012 was approximately 46% Canadian juniors, 31% NCAA and 22% European plus US juniors and anyone else. In the NFL approximately 67% came from the Big 5 conferences, 20% from the rest of FBS, 9% from FCS, 4% from Div II, and a few odd players from all other sources. Again, NCAA hockey is much more important in supplying talent to the NHL than FCS football is in supplying talent to the NFL. And that higher number of players is spread among 60 teams vs. the lower number of players spread over 100+ teams. to compare the quality and level of play between NCAA Hockey and NCAA FCS football is absurd....I am a fan of both, but at the end of the day it is what it is. Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 And that higher number of players is spread among 60 teams vs. the lower number of players spread over 100+ teams. to compare the quality and level of play between NCAA Hockey and NCAA FCS football is absurd....I am a fan of both, but at the end of the day it is what it is. That number for NCAA hockey also includes Division III, but I don't think there are very many that come from that level. Quote
geaux_sioux Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 The first is the quote I originally responded to. The second has nothing to do with the first and nothing to do with any of my responses. By supporting the idea that FCS is JV and D1 hockey isn't you contradict the facts. D1 hockey is the #2 supplier, basically jv. Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 By supporting the idea that FCS is JV and D1 hockey isn't you contradict the facts. D1 hockey is the #2 supplier, basically jv. I didn't say anything about either one being JV, and never have. You questioned whether NCAA hockey was the 2nd largest supplier of players for the NHL, or whether a Swedish league was bigger. I gave you specifics on where both NFL and NHL players come from. More than 31% of NHL players come from NCAA hockey, and that is the 2nd largest behind Canadian Juniors. Less than 9% of NFL players come from FCS schools. That is a much smaller percentage than 31%. FCS is either the 2nd or 3rd largest supplier, depending on whether you want to separate FBS into Big 5 and the rest or not. A lot of people would separate FBS since 67% come from the Big 5 conferences and about 20% from the rest of the FBS conferences. Those are called facts. Using a term like JV associated with either FCS football or NCAA hockey is not a fact. Quote
dlsiouxfan Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 Honest question for the hockey fans on this forum. If all of the schools that sponsor FBS and FCS football, also sponsored hockey and financed it like it was the focal point of their athletic department (like they do football now), do you think UND would play at the top level of collegiate hockey? If yes, do you think they'd be at all competitive? I say they'd either be in a lower level (an "FCS" level) or they'd be the equivalent of a Wyoming or Idaho in terms of relevance to the division I hockey world. The fact is anyone who denigrates UND football because of their level of competition needs to at least own up to the fact that UND hockey can only succeed to the level it does in Division I hockey because most of the other NCAA schools either don't sponsor the sport or care very little for it. 1 Quote
Siouxphan27 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 FCS is what it is. College hockey is what it is. Can't we all just get along? Quote
JohnboyND7 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 Honest question for the hockey fans on this forum. If all of the schools that sponsor FBS and FCS football, also sponsored hockey and financed it like it was the focal point of their athletic department (like they do football now), do you think UND would play at the top level of collegiate hockey? If yes, do you think they'd be at all competitive? I say they'd either be in a lower level (an "FCS" level) or they'd be the equivalent of a Wyoming or Idaho in terms of relevance to the division I hockey world. The fact is anyone who denigrates UND football because of their level of competition needs to at least own up to the fact that UND hockey can only succeed to the level it does in Division I hockey because most of the other NCAA schools either don't sponsor the sport or care very little for it. Lol oh this gon' be good. Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 Honest question for the hockey fans on this forum. If all of the schools that sponsor FBS and FCS football, also sponsored hockey and financed it like it was the focal point of their athletic department (like they do football now), do you think UND would play at the top level of collegiate hockey? If yes, do you think they'd be at all competitive? I say they'd either be in a lower level (an "FCS" level) or they'd be the equivalent of a Wyoming or Idaho in terms of relevance to the division I hockey world. The fact is anyone who denigrates UND football because of their level of competition needs to at least own up to the fact that UND hockey can only succeed to the level it does in Division I hockey because most of the other NCAA schools either don't sponsor the sport or care very little for it. First, I am a long time season ticket holder for both football and hockey so don't try to put me in a hockey fan only slot. As far as an answer to your question, I think it would depend on several other factors that you haven't addressed. First is history. Part of the advantage that UND has right now is a history of being a hockey power. Most of the strong hockey programs have been strong hockey programs for many years. Some combination of Michigan, Minnesota, Denver, Wisconsin, Boston College, Boston University, UND and a few other schools are on the top teams list most years. If UND had a similar history and had been a strong program for decades then they probably still would. If they were just moving up to Division I like they are in football, than they wouldn't be nearly as strong a program. Location is an advantage in hockey for UND versus many other NCAA schools and would be in your scenario. Hockey is important in this region of the country and the close proximity to Canada would always be advantages for UND over schools in Florida, Alabama, Texas and other southern schools. Hockey would probably always be stronger overall for northern schools than southern schools. Places like Florida, Texas and California have more football athletes growing up, and very well might under your scenario, so they have an advantage in attracting football players to southern schools. There are also outlier programs in all sports. Boise State in football. BYU has had a pretty strong history in football. Gonzaga in basketball. Several other smaller DI programs have had good runs in basketball. So there is no reason to believe that it wouldn't happen in hockey. Bottom line is that there is no way to know what would happen in some made up scenario. UND might still be a top program in your scenario, or they might be a bottom feeder. No one knows for sure and will never know because your scenario isn't going to happen. The fact is that UND has a strong hockey program and is one of the best in the NCAA every year. Enjoy it while it lasts, and hope it lasts for a long time. The other fact is that UND plays at the FCS level in football, and has only played at that level for 3 years. The future will tell whether they succeed or not at the FCS level, whether UND becomes part of a higher level if football is realigned, or how they might do at that higher level if they move up. Hopefully UND can continue to build the football program and it will have success at whatever level it plays. 2 Quote
The Sicatoka Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 "What if" scenarios are wonderful for conjecture; however, we live and act in the world as it is. Quote
dlsiouxfan Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 "What if" scenarios are wonderful for conjecture; however, we live and act in the world as it is. Fair enough. I don't begrudge UND hockey any of it's success but you have to admit that it's far less impressive due to the fact that only 64 teams compete and only half of those even finance scholarships for the sport. Don't even get me started on the athletic participation rates compared to football nationwide vs. hockey. Earning a division I football scholarship takes pretty impressive athleticism. I'm not convinced it takes impressive athleticism to play Division I hockey. In fact, when I played at UND we used to get a pretty good laugh at the athleticism displayed by our "World- Class" hockey team when watching them workout. 3 Quote
Teeder11 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 Fair enough. I don't begrudge UND hockey any of it's success but you have to admit that it's far less impressive due to the fact that only 64 teams compete and only half of those even finance scholarships for the sport. Don't even get me started on the athletic participation rates compared to football nationwide vs. hockey. Earning a division I football scholarship takes pretty impressive athleticism. I'm not convinced it takes impressive athleticism to play Division I hockey. In fact, when I played at UND we used to get a pretty good laugh at the athleticism displayed by our "World- Class" hockey team when watching them workout. I voted for this comment only because it gave me the biggest laugh of the day, so far. I could only imagine that our hockey athletes who are usually healthy scratches and watch the games from the press box would relish the chance to play you and your fellow "athletes" in a pick-up game of hockey. I wonder who'd be having a good laugh that day? Hockey takes great skill and talent to play well even at the pee wee level. You don't just pick up a stick, lace up and play D-1. Quote
UND1983 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 I voted for this comment only because it gave me the biggest laugh of the day, so far. I could only imagine that our hockey athletes who are usually healthy scratches and watch the games from the press box would relish the chance to play you and your fellow "athletes" in a pick-up game of hockey. I wonder who'd be having a good laugh that day? Hockey takes great skill and talent to play well even at the pee wee level. You don't just pick up a stick, lace up and play D-1. Think you missed the point. They aren't playing hockey while they are "working out". Everyone knows they are good at hockey. Quote
Teeder11 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 Think you missed the point. They aren't playing hockey while they are "working out". Everyone knows they are good at hockey. Exactly... great athletes all around. Period. Quote
iluvdebbies Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 Talking trash about one sport to make another seem more important?#truesiouxfans 3 Quote
petey23 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 By supporting the idea that FCS is JV and D1 hockey isn't you contradict the facts. D1 hockey is the #2 supplier, basically jv. Idiotic post either way and I don't support the idea that FCS is JV. As I said it is what it is and we and NDSU are both competing for 129th place in division 1 football and when you go to a Division Hockey game you are watching many players who will make a living playing that sport while when you go to a FCS game you don't see that level of player as often...I go to both, I enjoy both but lets not make one more than it is just because you don't care for hockey. 1 Quote
petey23 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 Fair enough. I don't begrudge UND hockey any of it's success but you have to admit that it's far less impressive due to the fact that only 64 teams compete and only half of those even finance scholarships for the sport. Don't even get me started on the athletic participation rates compared to football nationwide vs. hockey. Earning a division I football scholarship takes pretty impressive athleticism. I'm not convinced it takes impressive athleticism to play Division I hockey. In fact, when I played at UND we used to get a pretty good laugh at the athleticism displayed by our "World- Class" hockey team when watching them workout. Some one send this to Common Man....I think we can lock down the 2015 nominations on March 2....congrats! So do you think that all the athletes that go to Non Scholarship Schools at the D1 level are buried in student loans? Figure it out....my youngest brother went to Concordia and was in athletics and ended up paying for about 1/3 of his schooling. Quote
JohnboyND7 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 Exactly... great athletes all around. Period. The point he was making.. I think... Is that compared to the other athletes they don't match up. So.... Not great athletes all around. Quote
Teeder11 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 The point he was making.. I think... Is that compared to the other athletes they don't match up. So.... Not great athletes all around. Wrong. In most cases better athletes all around -- balance, strength, hand-eye coordination, etc. Quote
petey23 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 But it's not the top level as some try and suggest. You could have made that argument in the early 2000s but not anymore. College hockey is nowhere near as chocked full of high end talent as it once was. As the percentage of college hockey players moving into the NHL increases every year? Quote
JohnboyND7 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 Wrong. In most cases better athletes all around -- balance, strength, hand-eye coordination, etc. Look, are you telling us that the best athletes in the world come from the Scandy countries and Canada? If so, we can't help you. Maybe I'm getting the wrong message from your post though, because I don't think anyone is dumb enough to imply hockey players are the best athletes. Give me Football/basketball/soccer players everyday. 1 Quote
UND1983 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 Wrong. In most cases better athletes all around -- balance, strength, hand-eye coordination, etc. How would you know - they never play any other sports? Look at UND's roster. They are saying "ALL-AROUND". Repeat: ALL-AROUND. Not on skates. I know nothing about how a certain sports stacks up vs. another and it really doesn't matter. But, to say they are better without having seen any of them actually play another sport or do other activities is asinine. Hockey is one sport. Football is one sport. Both are specific with specific skills. Quote
geaux_sioux Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 As the percentage of college hockey players moving into the NHL increases every year? I've seen the number one first and second round picks from the NCAA decrease for the last few years Quote
geaux_sioux Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 How would you know - they never play any other sports? Look at UND's roster. They are saying "ALL-AROUND". Repeat: ALL-AROUND. Not on skates. I know nothing about how a certain sports stacks up vs. another and it really doesn't matter. But, to say they are better without having seen any of them actually play another sport or do other activities is asinine. Hockey is one sport. Football is one sport. Both are specific with specific skills. Some guys are only good at their one sport. Others are just athletes that can and do excell at many sports. Not everyone on UNDs hockey team will be good at almost every sport. A bunch of them will be. Not everyone is Jake Marto. Quote
Teeder11 Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 How would you know - they never play any other sports? Look at UND's roster. They are saying "ALL-AROUND". Repeat: ALL-AROUND. Not on skates. I know nothing about how a certain sports stacks up vs. another and it really doesn't matter. But, to say they are better without having seen any of them actually play another sport or do other activities is asinine. Hockey is one sport. Football is one sport. Both are specific with specific skills.I'm just busting your guys's chops a bit. I wanted to see how long we could persist in this inane debate that no one really has any way of proving beyond opinion. On a related note, I don't know how this turned into a "best athletes in the world" debate. Oh yeah, I do know. Johnboy had some downtime again at Chuck E. Cheese and decided to offer up some pearls of wisdom that had nothing to do with the original premise. LOL! What really got this revved up was some asinine comment a ways back that basically put D-1 hockey players on par with a men's beer league. Quote
UND-FB-FAN Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 http://mweb.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/21792005/college-hockey-players-increasing-in-number-importance-in-nhl%3Cspan%20class Though the Canadian Hockey League is still the biggest source of the NHL’s talent, the gap is narrowing for college hockey. Canadian Hockey League out-produces NCAA hockey; therefore, NCAA hockey is quite similar to FCS football in being second fiddle in terms of professional sourcing. UND fans need to understand that an FCS football national championship would bring just as much publicity to Grand Forks/North Dakota/UND as any college hockey national title would bring. Quote
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