UND and the Big Sky could go FBS

[Herd]

I think you guys are setting yourselves up for massive disappointment. It doesn't matter what Fullerton "wants" to do, the rules won't allow it and even the "permissive" portion of autonomy doesn't give authority to change something like that even if the P5 wanted it (they don't, evident by all the other rules and complaining about no more FBS teams).

Fullerton is making himself and the conference look foolish. He sounds bitter and almost identical to Mike Yeager of the CAA talking about a new east coast FBS league and then having a temper-tantrum almost immedietly before Old Dominion, Mason, Georgia St, and VCU bolted and JMU is leaving first offer they get. SoCon was talking similiar gibberish right before GA Southern, App, CofC, Davidson all said "yeah right, c-ya". Based on the past of what happened to the Big Sky's peer's in the CAA and SoCon, It would almost suggest that Fullerton is mad and desperate just like Yeager, the SoCon Commish, and Baghdad Bob and there is a better chance that Montana and Montana St are about to follow Idaho out the door than the other way around.

And this non-sense from Fullerton about G5 conferences not being able to pay full-cost of attendance is pure garbage. MAC commish just said in our media day thay the conference fully supports this stipend. Same with AAC, CUSA, Sun Belt. We'll be making more new money from the CFP and higher payouts to cover $5000 x 300 scholarships and have a nice chunk left over.

While the FCS teeters on a financial cliff, smaller FBS schools in conferences such as Conference USA and the Sun Belt Conference totter, watching their power rise.

The FCS is going extinct.

That’s what Eastern Kentucky coach Dean Hood says...

Read more here: http://www.miamihera.../#storylink=cpy

Maction, the truth isn't very well received around here, but I think you are right on the Money regarding what the Big Sky would be allowed to do. If the Big Sky pursues what Fullerton is suggesting, the doors on this idea would close quickly.

For now, there is no separation between the P5 & G5. Same scholarship level, same championship. If the P5/G5 stay at the same level, I'm not overly concerned about the FCS level. The FCS will be impacted by fewer FBS game opportunities, but if that is your only source of funding your program, you were already in trouble. If there is a P5/G5 split (meaning . . . separate championships/separate scholarhsip levels), the G5 scholarship levels needs to come down from 85 for many in FCS to even think about trying to join the current G5 level. If there was a split, and the G5 allowed a 70-85 scholarship level slot to be included in their championship, then you'd see 3-4 FCS conferences try to get to 70-75. Until the G5 situation changes, it's a wait and see for FCS football. IMO, step back from the ledge until something actually changes. If I were Montana or NDSU and wanted to goto the G5 level, then I'd do it by myself or with 1 other partner. I would not even think about trying to do it with a big group . . . bad idea.

As for Eastern Kentucky . . . are we really talking about Eastern Kentucky? I thought they were already extinct.

[UND1983]

Maction, the truth isn't very well received around here, but I think you are right on the Money regarding what the Big Sky would be allowed to do. If the Big Sky pursues what Fullerton is suggesting, the doors on this idea would close quickly.

For now, there is no separation between the P5 & G5. Same scholarship level, same championship. If the P5/G5 stay at the same level, I'm not overly concerned about the FCS level. The FCS will be impacted by fewer FBS game opportunities, but if that is your only source of funding your program, you were already in trouble. If there is a P5/G5 split (meaning . . . separate championships/separate scholarhsip levels), the G5 scholarship levels needs to come down from 85 for many in FCS to even think about trying to join the current G5 level. If there was a split, and the G5 allowed a 70-85 scholarship level slot to be included in their championship, then you'd see 3-4 FCS conferences try to get to 70-75. Until the G5 situation changes, it's a wait and see for FCS football. IMO, step back from the ledge until something actually changes. If I were Montana or NDSU and wanted to goto the G5 level, then I'd do it by myself or with 1 other partner. I would not even think about trying to do it with a big group . . . bad idea.

As for Eastern Kentucky . . . are we really talking about Eastern Kentucky? I thought they were already extinct.

So Fullerton is an idiot for wanting to try and figure out a way to have Big Sky teams go FBS, where the money is. Then, on the other hand you guys provide reasons why FCS is dying and unsustainbable but UND, Montana and Montana State should want to stay FCS and be happy with what they got.

Can't have it both ways. Is FCS dying or not?

[homer]

So Fullerton is an idiot for wanting to try and figure out a way to have Big Sky teams go FBS, where the money is. Then, on the other hand you guys provide reasons why FCS is dying and unsustainbable but UND, Montana and Montana State should want to stay FCS and be happy with what they got.

Can't have it both ways. Is FCS dying or not?

Well said.

I have no idea if what Fullerton is proposing is even possible but he seems to agree with what the gentlemen from Eastern Kentucky is saying and is working to provide a solution to the issue. When you are a school in one of only 3 conferences in the west playing football, you don't have a lot of options to move up.

On the FU board they say eventually a conference will look past travel costs to add "the next Boise St./new ESPN media darling" to their conference. That they believe that is laughable. If schools need to start paying additional money to players outside of scholorships, they will be looking to cut costs, not add them. You can't fault Fullerton by looking for a solution for his schools who would like to move up and get a share of the money in the article. One could even argue that PAC12 and Mountain West teams would pay more for non FCS games as their options are even more limited geographically.

[bison73]

So Fullerton is an idiot for wanting to try and figure out a way to have Big Sky teams go FBS, where the money is. Then, on the other hand you guys provide reasons why FCS is dying and unsustainbable but UND, Montana and Montana State should want to stay FCS and be happy with what they got.

Can't have it both ways. Is FCS dying or not?

Why would it be dying? Smaller schools have done well for years before they were used as a punching bag for the big pay day. They got in trouble when the started to rely on those pay days. They will just have to change their model and start promoting their product and working on their fan base.

The sky is falling is an illusion. Just like the MAC and MWC conferences thinking they were in with the big boys. When the split happens there will be no more illusions on whos who and whos what.

[Herd]

So Fullerton is an idiot for wanting to try and figure out a way to have Big Sky teams go FBS, where the money is. Then, on the other hand you guys provide reasons why FCS is dying and unsustainbable but UND, Montana and Montana State should want to stay FCS and be happy with what they got.

Can't have it both ways. Is FCS dying or not?

I don't blame Fullerton for trying to keep the Big Sky together, nothing wrong with that. But it seems like he is either foolish or being deceitful in his comments about taking an FCS conference to the FBS level. Maybe his is just trying to prime the NCAA to soften them up.

If he is so urgent to get the Big Sky to FBS, he really screwed up. He would have needed to use the WAC to get that done. Now, I don't see a way to take a large group FBS. (not that taking a large group FBS is a good idea, I don't think it is) You are familiar with the roadblocks to the CAA and the SCon when they were trying to do the same thing, right?

I'm not trying to tell Montana, Montana State or UND what to do, they can do whatever they want. They would all need to decide if they could take on the burden of another $4-5 million annually to get to 85 scholarships, and that's really an individual decision. I think they would be wise to wait and see if there is a P5/G5 split into two championships and a reduced scholarship level for the G5. If that happened, a door might open for all FCS conferences to adjust up to 70+ scholarship to complete for the DI G5 title. Heck, if you could play two P5 games a year at the G5 level, that would pay for your move to 70-75 scholarships.

Until then, there is 1 DI FBS title, and things don't change too much for the FCS, other than fewer FBS games available for the FCS. If you rely on FBS games to meet your FCS budget, it could be a tough time though I suppose.

If you were starting from Scratch NCAA, Football Scholarships might look something like this. I think this is what most of the P5 would prefer, but it won't happen overnight. This would define 5 Championships, instead of 4 like there is today.

DI FBS P5 Group 81 Min - 90 Max (or 81-90 Slot) 1/3 of DI B12, B1G, SEC, ACC, PAC, AAC

DI FBS G5 Group 70 Min -80 Max (or 70 - 80 Slot) 1/3 of DI MWC, CUSA, MAC, SBC, MVFC, BSC, CAA

DI FCS 0 Min - 50 Max 1/3 of DI Rest of FCS

DII 0 - Min 30 Max

DIII 0

[#MACtion]

So Fullerton is an idiot for wanting to try and figure out a way to have Big Sky teams go FBS, where the money is. Then, on the other hand you guys provide reasons why FCS is dying and unsustainbable but UND, Montana and Montana State should want to stay FCS and be happy with what they got.

Don't get me wrong, I think 2 or 3 schools in the Big Sky want and probably will go FBS...... BUT it will be by them leaving the Big Sky Conference to join the MWC, CUSA, or Sun Belt..... Just like what happened to the CAA (Old Dominion and GA State) and SoCon (App St and GA Southern) and Southland.... There will be no Big Sky FBS and Big Sky FCS. It Will be Big Sky FCS and Montana and Montana State leaving for a completely different conference. Fullerton senses the restlessness. It is really weird how much of an obsession Fullerton has with Idaho. Every comment the guy makes is about Idaho and is hope that someday he can talk them into joining with his numerous articles.

There has been a 15-year rumor of a plan of a new east coast FBS conference that would have the old Yankee Conference FCS teams, CAA teams, and SoCon teams like App and GA South. After many many years of huffing and puffing and finally realizing it wouldn't and couldn't happen, no matter how much Tom Yeager talked and talked and talked about it.... Old Dominion, App, GA South, UMass, etc... said C-YA !

I'd guess Montana and Montana St are getting restless like UMass and Old Dominion and Fullerton is speaking just like Tom Yeager...

If Fullerton had any confidence whatsoever of his whacky Idaho/Big Sky/FBS plan, then he would just sit back and wait for it to happen instead of popping off to the media every 5 seconds. Why doesn't he just pick up the phone and call Idaho? Instead he uses the newspaper and media day to tell Idaho what he hopes they will do. Its weird man, really.

[#MACtion]

When the split happens there will be no more illusions on whos who and whos what.

What split? The new governance is already agreed upon and will be voted on August 7th in 3 days. There is no split at all and the new stipends and CFP contract only make the FBS - FCS gap even larger while permanently ties the 10 FBS conferences together.

The most concern of this new cost of attendance should be in other sports, NOT football.

Miami will be making millions more than before. The cost of $5,000 full cost of attendance stipend x 300 total Miami scholarships = $1.5 million. So the new CFP money more than covers that $1.5 million with money to spare from TV deals etc...

But the concern comes when MAC schools offer $5,000 extra to all Sports..... including Hockey, and basketball. Will the rest of the NCHC schools outside of Miami and Western Michigan also pay the $5000 extra? Will the Missouri Valley basketball schools for basketball? will the A10? The MAC's CFP contract covers the expense for us, but the NCHC and MVC and A10 gets no CFP money to offset the costs.

What happens with recruiting if Northern Illinois offers $5,000 stipends to their basketball recruits but Illinois State in the MVC doesn't? Even if the MVC tries to keep up, it is a money drain on them where it is not on NIU because of CFP.

This new governance is creating a split alright.

[bison73]

What split? The new governance is already agreed upon and will be voted on August 7th in 3 days. There is no split at all and the new stipends and CFP contract only make the FBS - FCS gap even larger while permanently ties the 10 FBS conferences together.

The most concern of this new cost of attendance should be in other sports, NOT football.

Miami will be making millions more than before. The cost of $5,000 full cost of attendance stipend x 300 total Miami scholarships = $1.5 million. So the new CFP money more than covers that $1.5 million with money to spare from TV deals etc...

But the concern comes when MAC schools offer $5,000 extra to all Sports..... including Hockey, and basketball. Will the rest of the NCHC schools outside of Miami and Western Michigan also pay the $5000 extra? Will the Missouri Valley basketball schools for basketball? will the A10? The MAC's CFP contract covers the expense for us, but the NCHC and MVC and A10 gets no CFP money to offset the costs.

What happens with recruiting if Northern Illinois offers $5,000 stipends to their basketball recruits but Illinois State in the MVC doesn't? Even if the MVC tries to keep up, it is a money drain on them where it is not on NIU because of CFP.

This new governance is creating a split alright.

The new governance is going to be a catalyst for other schools to seperate themselves from some of the bottom feeders in their conferences. That will cause some movement. IMO. The have nots may have to join up with other have nots if they want to keep playing and be competitive.

I also wouldnt be surprised to see some of the stronger teams in one conference join with their peers in another to form a new conferece to move up.

OR Everyone can just say pizz on the big boys and go about their business. I think eveyone is waiting to see who makes a move first.

[kingranch]

So my question is this, if and this is a big if, the big sky splits and half go fbs, do you really believe NDSU would beg the sky to join, or do you believe the sky would beg NDSU to join??? NDSU is already d1 in everything else. It only makes sense to have Montana and NDSU as front runners for such a move in football.

[kingranch]

UND brings nothing to the table for fbs, no revenue,no market, no tv,no instate support for football compared to NDSU.

[kingranch]

All I'm saying is without NDSU and Montana this thing has no legs.

[Hayduke]

I don't blame Fullerton for trying to keep the Big Sky together, nothing wrong with that. But it seems like he is either foolish or being deceitful in his comments about taking an FCS conference to the FBS level. Maybe his is just trying to prime the NCAA to soften them up.

If he is so urgent to get the Big Sky to FBS, he really screwed up. He would have needed to use the WAC to get that done. Now, I don't see a way to take a large group FBS. (not that taking a large group FBS is a good idea, I don't think it is) You are familiar with the roadblocks to the CAA and the SCon when they were trying to do the same thing, right?

I'm not trying to tell Montana, Montana State or UND what to do, they can do whatever they want. They would all need to decide if they could take on the burden of another $4-5 million annually to get to 85 scholarships, and that's really an individual decision. I think they would be wise to wait and see if there is a P5/G5 split into two championships and a reduced scholarship level for the G5. If that happened, a door might open for all FCS conferences to adjust up to 70+ scholarship to complete for the DI G5 title. Heck, if you could play two P5 games a year at the G5 level, that would pay for your move to 70-75 scholarships.

Until then, there is 1 DI FBS title, and things don't change too much for the FCS, other than fewer FBS games available for the FCS. If you rely on FBS games to meet your FCS budget, it could be a tough time though I suppose.

If you were starting from Scratch NCAA, Football Scholarships might look something like this. I think this is what most of the P5 would prefer, but it won't happen overnight. This would define 5 Championships, instead of 4 like there is today.

DI FBS P5 Group 81 Min - 90 Max (or 81-90 Slot) 1/3 of DI B12, B1G, SEC, ACC, PAC, AAC

DI FBS G5 Group 70 Min -80 Max (or 70 - 80 Slot) 1/3 of DI MWC, CUSA, MAC, SBC, MVFC, BSC, CAA

DI FCS 0 Min - 50 Max 1/3 of DI Rest of FCS

DII 0 - Min 30 Max

DIII 0

I agree with Herd. Really.

(I gotta go wash my hands again...)

[The Sicatoka]

kingranch: Thank you for your insights, like "NDSU is already d1 in everything else" ... just like every current Big Sky member is a full Division I member.

However, I suspect the BSC commissioner is thinking about Big Sky schools first (like Montana, Montana State, and Idaho, and North Dakota) before say NDSU or SDSU.

PS - Those disparaging remarks about Montana State from NDSU fans last year when MSU executed an out clause to take a money game, surely they and the Big Sky have forgotten about them.

[SiouxVolley]

I agree with Herd. Really.

(I gotta go wash my hands again...)

You and Herd are effectively saying Fullerton is full of it. I'd go with more that Herd and you are full of it.

You and Herd have a lot of crow to eat, Hayduke.

Fullerton is getting the rules changed for FBS transitions, or he would not be spouting off publicly.

[The Sicatoka]

I see this "additional $5 million" (annual) to go FBS tossed around. That number has to be case by case, situational.

If you're FCS and at 14 sports, yeah, it'll take some money to get to the FBS required 16 sports. (For example, Montana is adding softball. That makes 15 for them: 6 mens, 9 womens.) Adding sports will clearly increase the annual budget needs.

But say you're already at 21 sports. You don't need to add sports; you're over the magic 16. There's no budget impact in an FCS to FBS transition in that scenario.

Alternatively, going from 63 to 85 scholarships (FCS max to FBS max in FB) means adding 44 scholarships. Before you question my math, 22 for FB, 22 for Title IX. Going simple and saying roughly $10k per, that's about $500k. If your current women's sports aren't fully funded you just add the scholarships there (and make happy women's soccer and volleyball and tennis and golf coaches).

Will a move to FBS cost $5 million more annually for some? Undoubtedly, especially if they have to add sports. And it will cost more than $5 million for others.

But then again, it may cost less for some others because they already have many FBS required pieces (16 sports) in place.

[darell1976]

UND brings nothing to the table for fbs, no revenue,no market, no tv,no instate support for football compared to NDSU.

Until UND rises up and NDSU falls like history has proven time and again.

[JohnboyND7]

I see this "additional $5 million" (annual) to go FBS tossed around. That number has to be case by case, situational.

If you're FCS and at 14 sports, yeah, it'll take some money to get to the FBS required 16 sports. (For example, Montana is adding softball. That makes 15 for them: 6 mens, 9 womens.) Adding sports will clearly increase the annual budget needs.

But say you're already at 21 sports. You don't need to add sports; you're over the magic 16. There's no budget impact in an FCS to FBS transition in that scenario.

Alternatively, going from 63 to 85 scholarships (FCS max to FBS max in FB) means adding 44 scholarships. Before you question my math, 22 for FB, 22 for Title IX. Going simple and saying roughly $10k per, that's about $500k. If your current women's sports aren't fully funded you just add the scholarships there (and make happy women's soccer and volleyball and tennis and golf coaches).

Will a move to FBS cost $5 million more annually for some? Undoubtedly, especially if they have to add sports. And it will cost more than $5 million for others.

But then again, it may cost less for some others because they already have many FBS required pieces (16 sports) in place.

Coaching salaries.... Unless you really really just want the FBS name and don't care about getting crushed weekly.

[Hayduke]

You and Herd are effectively saying Fullerton is full of it. I'd go with more that Herd and you are full of it.

You and Herd have a lot of crow to eat, Hayduke.

Fullerton is getting the rules changed for FBS transitions, or he would not be spouting off publicly.

I more agree with Herd that there is going to be a change in college football in general. The FBS/FCS scenario we have now is going away. An elite "Big 5" will be in place, followed by a lesser division of programs like the MWC, MAC, etc. Dropping down even further is the flock of FCS programs. The BSC and MV football are in no position to rise up with their current members. It would take a lot of $$$ for that to happen. Historically, these schools have never been willing to spend that kind of cash. Basically, it's looking like it will just be a updated version of D-II football in their futures.

[dmksioux]

All I'm saying is without NDSU and Montana this thing has no legs.

Although I still do not believe the BSC will split and have an FBS division, I find it rather amusing that the bison faithful are already starting to put their spin on it, just in case it does happen. :-)

[The Sicatoka]

Coaching salaries.... Unless you really really just want the FBS name and don't care about getting crushed weekly.

Paying someone a large salary will make them a great coach is one of the great myths of athletics.

The great coaches are found (in the lower tiers) by the top tier schools and paid accordingly.

The problem becomes that the lower tier schools buy into the myth hoping to buy success.

[JohnboyND7]

Paying someone a large salary will make them a great coach is one of the great myths of athletics.

The great coaches are found (in the lower tiers) by the top tier schools and paid accordingly.

The problem becomes that the lower tier schools buy into the myth hoping to buy success.

To some degree I agree but if you can't offer at least competitive wages... It is going to be tough to do well. If you run a business and your competition is paying a significantly higher wage... He will draw in better talent.

[The Sicatoka]

To some degree I agree but if you can't offer at least competitive wages... It is going to be tough to do well. If you run a business and your competition is paying a significantly higher wage... He will draw in better talent.

If you pay more than the pool that you're drawing from you'll draw who you want.

[Herd]

kingranch: Thank you for your insights, like "NDSU is already d1 in everything else" ... just like every current Big Sky member is a full Division I member.

However, I suspect the BSC commissioner is thinking about Big Sky schools first (like Montana, Montana State, and Idaho, and North Dakota) before say NDSU or SDSU.

PS - Those disparaging remarks about Montana State from NDSU fans last year when MSU executed an out clause to take a money game, surely they and the Big Sky have forgotten about them.

Any remarks made by NDSU toward the MSU AD were well deserved. Sure, you can easily buy out a game by enacting a buying clause, but you don't do that unless you are classless. Would UND buyout a USD or SDSU game? No, you don't do those sort of things to a school within your group of peer institutions. Sure you can, but you don't. Und would get BBQ'd in SD for a move like that, as did MSU in ND.

MSU probably will remember the NDSU reaction, and I know NDSU fans will remember the MSU decision. It did kinda worked itself out though, with Karma tanking the MSU 2013 season.

[UND1983]

Lighten up dork.

Central Arkansas and Idaho State bought out their trips to UND during the transition. It happens. Grow up.

[JohnboyND7]

If you pay more than the pool that you're drawing from you'll draw who you want.

Your pool to draw from will not be deeper than 3 feet.... While the teams you are playing are doing dives at the other end...