ND Supreme Court Rules against the NDSBoHE

[Goon]

I'm not seeing su as a bastion of athletics.

Me neither, maybe a bastion on the police blotter entries from NDSU, but not a bastion of great Athletes.

[CMSioux]

Wanting a team to fail doesn't mean you are a troll. I do not puff my chest about my team on here a whole lot. I comment on the issues I do understand, and ask questions about the ones I do not. I have a solid knowledge of UND athletics history, in fact probably better than most of my UND fan friends. The presence of a non-UND fan does not make them a troll. I started out as a troll, I've eased up on you guys quite a bit. Few friends? I don't know how you would have any idea how many friends I have, but thats nice. Lack of common sense? There are people on here who think sanctions won't impact UND. That sir, is a lack of common sense. Not pointing out the experiences that I have witnessed with friends/family (ND Residents of voting age) who are UND fans and what they think about the nickname.

I'm going to guess you'll have to call 55-60% of voting North Dakotan's in June trolls then. At least I'm voting "No" for logical/comical reasons....and to make some relatives happy. You got PLENTY of UND fans voting yes because they actually think it is a good thing for UND athletics. At least you can discuss with this "troll" about the implications of what the Nickname-Crowd wants. You can't have a conversation with them about it, because you will be on two different pages.

Why would it matter what Grand Forks county wants? People outside of Grand Forks go to UND games too I'd imagine sometimes. The NCAA is going after one school, and one only.

de·lu·sion·al

  /dɪˈluʒənl/ Show Spelled[dih-loo-zhuh-nl] Show IPA

adjective

1. having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions

2. Psychiatry . maintaining fixed false beliefs even when confronted with facts, usually as a result of mental illness.

[Goon]

de·lu·sion·al

  /dɪˈluʒənl/ Show IPA

adjective

1. having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions

2. Psychiatry . maintaining fixed false beliefs even when confronted with facts, usually as a result of mental illness.

I think this definition might fit as well for our troll.

Noun 1. delusions of grandeur - a delusion (common in paranoia) that you are much greater and more powerful and influential than you really are

delusion, psychotic belief - (psychology) an erroneous belief that is held in the face of evidence to the contrary

megalomania - a psychological state characterized by delusions of grandeur

Edited April 16, 2012 by Goon

[Fetch]

more politics & name calling - I guess thats all you have left

[Fetch]

The only way this election goes yes & the name is halted is if UND Admin. & SBOHE & Alumni. comes out & publicly says we keep the name if SL wins & then put forth a honest effort to support SL

& I just saw a pig fly past my window

The people of ND knows who screwed this up & are still not happy about it

[82SiouxGuy]

The only way this election goes yes & the name is halted is if UND Admin. & SBOHE & Alumni. comes out & publicly says we keep the name if SL wins & then put forth a honest effort to support SL

& I just saw a pig fly past my window

The people of ND knows who screwed this up & are still not happy about it

If the Spirit Lake lawsuit gets dismissed after the hearing on Thursday then even this argument gets thrown out. And as we have said before, it doesn't matter to the court what UND would do for the lawsuit. It will be won or lost based on evidence in the case, not any efforts that UND might put into the case.

[Fetch]

Maybe not but the election is yet to come

[JohnboyND7]

de·lu·sion·al

  /dɪˈluʒənl/ Show IPA

adjective

1. having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions

2. Psychiatry . maintaining fixed false beliefs even when confronted with facts, usually as a result of mental illness.

...sounds like you, Sir, when your post is countered with an honest opinion in which your points (some of which cannot be proven regardless) are countered with what the other person perceives to be a troll. You brought up no facts. My original post you decided to claim was "trollish" was just experiences I have had with many UND fans and alumni.

According to Urban Dictionary..the definition of troll is as follows.

"One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."

Just because the message someone brings to you is a message you are not a fan of, does not by any means make them a troll.

[Goon]

According to Urban Dictionary..the definition of troll is as follows.

"One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."

Just because the message someone brings to you is a message you are not a fan of, does not by any means make them a troll.

Well you just described you to a "T"... And you're the one that is trolling a visiting fan message board with the sole purpose of inciting people and saying stuff to getting a rise of out them.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Goon

[JohnboyND7]

Well you just described you to a "T"... And you're the one that is trolling a visiting fan message board with the sole purpose of inciting people and saying stuff to getting a rise of out them.

Not inciting anything. Have I before? Yes. This thread, and the case he pointed to, no. No purpose to incite people. Gave my reasons as to why I will be voting "No," and what the UND fans/alumni I deal with have been saying they want.

[Gma loves hockey]

Why would it matter what Grand Forks county wants? People outside of Grand Forks go to UND games too I'd imagine sometimes. The NCAA is going after one school, and one only.

I guess I was thinking it would prove that UND and the local area is trying to follow NCAA regs and the rest of the state, that may not be following the situation, is putting UND between a rock and a hard place. In that situation, it would seem like the ones fighting against the NCAA should be also sanctioned. It is not a matter of going to UND games, it is a matter of politics, semantics, and personal preferences.

[ScottM]

I guess I was thinking it would prove that UND and the local area is trying to follow NCAA regs and the rest of the state, that may not be following the situation, is putting UND between a rock and a hard place. In that situation, it would seem like the ones fighting against the NCAA should be also sanctioned. It is not a matter of going to UND games, it is a matter of politics, semantics, and personal preferences.

UND and the board have done what they can to retire the Sioux moniker, But the people of North Dakota, by and through their political process, seek to keep the Sioux moniker hanging around UND's neck. And that's why if the state votes for UND to retain the Sioux moniker, the entire state should be subject to same state-wide sanctions that the NC$$ has imposed on Mississippi and South Carolina for their various displays of the Confederate flag.

[XCheck]

Why is everyone so certain that the NCAA could not be persuaded to change their position if the majority vote from SL and SR are in favor of keeping the nickname. (Conversely, if SL and SR vote against the nickname...end of discussion.) If the vote from those two reservations is in favor of the name, the NCAA would have a difficult time explaining why their policy should not be reversed. How could the NCAA rule that the name is hostile and abusive if those two groups (Spirit Lake and Standing Rock) voted in favor of keeping the name. The NCAA would be offending the very people they were thying to "protect". This has alwasy been about what Native Americans in North Dakota think about the issue and theirs is the only real opinion that counts. This board is full of opinions both for and against the name, but nobody has tried to find out definitively what Native Americans think. Some tribal members indicate feel left out of the process....the Tribal Councils do not necessarily reflect the opinion of their members (a fact lost on the ND delegation that signed that agreement with the NCAA). One or two opponents on the Council can decide the whole issue which affects so many people.

Even the referendum is flawed...somehow we needed to get the the tribal members vote, not all the white people that includes a bunch of hostile Bison fans. the while people shouldn't be telling Sioux tribal members what they should consider "hostile and abusive". It will be great to have this settled because this debate is really getting stale. The referendum, as it stands, is a lose, lose situation for UND.

The way this issue was handled from day one by all the key stakeholders was most unfortunate....they did not come up with a plan and execute that plan that gave UND the best chance to keep the name. I think all of us could accept dropping the nickname and logo if we feel it had been handled more thoughfully and skillfully. There was a lack of effective leadership on this issue. If the UND athletic teams competed with game plans this weak, they would never win any games. Boy do I miss Tom Clifford...he wouldn't have let the ND delegation get painted into a corner that left UND with few cards to play. However, that is old news...the process used to respond to the NCAA policy was not very good at all and we can't go back and change that. A University, in part, teaches students effective problem solving, but UND did not set a very good or convincing example in this case.

It sounds like the name is pretty much dead and the school will have to make the very best of a bad situation.

[Bison Dan]

UND and the board have done what they can to retire the Sioux moniker, But the people of North Dakota, by and through their political process, seek to keep the Sioux moniker hanging around UND's neck. And that's why if the state votes for UND to retain the Sioux moniker, the entire state should be subject to same state-wide sanctions that the NC$$ has imposed on Mississippi and South Carolina for their various displays of the Confederate flag.

Nice logic.

[UNDBIZ]

Why is everyone so certain that the NCAA could not be persuaded to change their position if the majority vote from SL and SR are in favor of keeping the nickname. (Conversely, if SL and SR vote against the nickname...end of discussion.) If the vote from those two reservations is in favor of the name, the NCAA would have a difficult time explaining why their policy should not be reversed. How could the NCAA rule that the name is hostile and abusive if those two groups (Spirit Lake and Standing Rock) voted in favor of keeping the name. The NCAA would be offending the very people they were thying to "protect". This has alwasy been about what Native Americans in North Dakota think about the issue and their's is the only real opinion that counts. They feel left out of the process....the Tribal Councils do not necessarily relect the opinion of their members

Most of SR is in South Dakota. The NCAA wants approval from SR, not Sioux County (the portion of SR in North Dakota). Is it fair?? No. Does the NCAA care?? No. The NCAA wants official word from the SR Tribal Council on the approval of the name. Even if the vote in Sioux County is in favor of the name, the SR Tribal Council doesn't appear willing to extend such approval.

[UNDBIZ]

Nice logic.

I agree. Great to see we're all on the same page now.

[The Sicatoka]

Folks, it's time to end the "coulda-woulda-shoulda".

It's time to live in present realities.

Reality:

- UND is under sanction

- UND will not be allowed to host an NCAA playoff game even if earned

- Minnesota won't play UND

- Wisconsin won't play UND

- Iowa won't play UND (and has uninvited UND from a competition previously planned)

- the Big Sky has stated concerns about UND's viability as a conference member under continuing sanctions

Folks, the NCAA has cut UND.

The choices are:

- act to stop the bleeding

- bleed out

If SL v NCAA goes SL's way, that'll be the new reality. Deal with it then.

For now, stop the bleeding.

[fightingsioux4life]

Folks, it's time to end the "coulda-woulda-shoulda".

It's time to live in present realities.

Reality:

- UND is under sanction

- UND will not be allowed to host an NCAA playoff game even if earned

- Minnesota won't play UND

- Wisconsin won't play UND

- Iowa won't play UND (and has uninvited UND from a competition previously planned)

- the Big Sky has stated concerns about UND's viability as a conference member under continuing sanctions

Folks, the NCAA has cut UND.

The choices are:

- act to stop the bleeding

- bleed out

If SL v NCAA goes SL's way, that'll be the new reality. Deal with it then.

For now, stop the bleeding.

Well put.

[82SiouxGuy]

Why is everyone so certain that the NCAA could not be persuaded to change their position if the majority vote from SL and SR are in favor of keeping the nickname. (Conversely, if SL and SR vote against the nickname...end of discussion.) If the vote from those two reservations is in favor of the name, the NCAA would have a difficult time explaining why their policy should not be reversed. How could the NCAA rule that the name is hostile and abusive if those two groups (Spirit Lake and Standing Rock) voted in favor of keeping the name. The NCAA would be offending the very people they were thying to "protect". This has alwasy been about what Native Americans in North Dakota think about the issue and theirs is the only real opinion that counts. This board is full of opinions both for and against the name, but nobody has tried to find out definitively what Native Americans think. Some tribal members indicate feel left out of the process....the Tribal Councils do not necessarily reflect the opinion of their members (a fact lost on the ND delegation that signed that agreement with the NCAA). One or two opponents on the Council can decide the whole issue which affects so many people.

Even the referendum is flawed...somehow we needed to get the the tribal members vote, not all the white people that includes a bunch of hostile Bison fans. the while people shouldn't be telling Sioux tribal members what they should consider "hostile and abusive". It will be great to have this settled because this debate is really getting stale. The referendum, as it stands, is a lose, lose situation for UND.

The way this issue was handled from day one by all the key stakeholders was most unfortunate....they did not come up with a plan and execute that plan that gave UND the best chance to keep the name. I think all of us could accept dropping the nickname and logo if we feel it had been handled more thoughfully and skillfully. There was a lack of effective leadership on this issue. If the UND athletic teams competed with game plans this weak, they would never win any games. Boy do I miss Tom Clifford...he wouldn't have let the ND delegation get painted into a corner that left UND with few cards to play. However, that is old news...the process used to respond to the NCAA policy was not very good at all and we can't go back and change that. A University, in part, teaches students effective problem solving, but UND did not set a very good or convincing example in this case.

It sounds like the name is pretty much dead and the school will have to make the very best of a bad situation.

The NCAA will not change their policy because they don't have to. They are an independent organization, membership is voluntary. Therefore they can make their own rules. If you don't like the rules you can leave the organization. They are not subject to the opinions of North Dakota citizens. They have a signed agreement with UND and the state of North Dakota saying that approval by both tribes was needed by November 30, 2010. That approval was not obtained at Standing Rock. So it doesn't matter what happens now. The Standing Rock Tribal council could vote unanimously in favor of UND using the nickname and it wouldn't matter to the NCAA. The NCAA told the delegation from North Dakota that the settlement date had passed, so nothing that happened after that date would change their position.

The NCAA chose to follow the wishes of the Tribal Councils because they are the official voice of the tribes. It would be like someone coming into North Dakota and following what the state government told them rather than taking a poll of the citizens. That is the way business is done, you deal with the government policies rather than choosing to go against those policies because you think that's how the citizens feel.

If you don't believe that the NCAA will maintain their position just look up the NCAA versus South Carolina and Mississippi on the Confederate flag issue. In South Carolina they are punishing the entire state because of a single flag flown over a war memorial. That flag was put into state law. So the NCAA no longer allows any NCAA tournaments in South Carolina that are scheduled in advance. This has been going on for a decade. The people of South Carolina support having the flag. The NCAA is not backing away.

[ScottM]

Nice logic.

Thanks. So we can count on your vote to drop the moniker?

[Goon]

Why is everyone so certain that the NCAA could not be persuaded to change their position if the majority vote from SL and SR are in favor of keeping the nickname. (Conversely, if SL and SR vote against the nickname...end of discussion.) If the vote from those two reservations is in favor of the name, the NCAA would have a difficult time explaining why their policy should not be reversed.

The only vote that matters to the NCAA is a vote that is sanctioned/approved of by the Standing Rock Tribal Council; that’s not going to happen because the members on the Standing Rock Tribal Council aren't letting their tribal members vote on the matter.

The NCAA doesn’t care if the Standing Rock Members vote to approve the Fighting Sioux nickname en masse in the state wide election; it’s not going to sway them. The NCAA outsmarted the AG when they got him to agree to the surrender agreement.

[ScottM]

The only vote that matters to the NCAA is a vote that is sanctioned/approved of by the Standing Rock Tribal Council; that’s not going to happen because the members on the Standing Rock Tribal Council aren't letting their tribal members vote on the matter.

The NCAA doesn’t care if the Standing Rock Members vote to approve the Fighting Sioux nickname en masse in the state wide election; it’s not going to sway them. The NCAA outsmarted the AG when they got him to agree to the surrender agreement.

Actually, none of the votes matter to the NC$$. That time has long since passed. SL and SR could vote unanimously that UND should keep the Sioux for 1000 years and it would not impact the NC$$ or the settlement agreement that binds the parties. Same goes with the SL litigation. Even if they win fat chance the NC$$ has no obligation to release UND from its settlement agreement.

[JohnboyND7]

UND and the board have done what they can to retire the Sioux moniker, But the people of North Dakota, by and through their political process, seek to keep the Sioux moniker hanging around UND's neck. And that's why if the state votes for UND to retain the Sioux moniker, the entire state should be subject to same state-wide sanctions that the NC$$ has imposed on Mississippi and South Carolina for their various displays of the Confederate flag.

I've said it before. Go for it. It wouldn't really hurt anyone. UND and NDSU aren't going to be hosting many NCAA or Conference tournements (that is what the sanction is on Miss. and SoCar). Playoff games earned by merit still are awarded. An example being Wofford (in South Carolina) has hosted playoff games since that policy was put in place.

[UNDBIZ]

I've said it before. Go for it. It wouldn't really hurt anyone. UND and NDSU aren't going to be hosting many NCAA or Conference tournements (that is what the sanction is on Miss. and SoCar). Playoff games earned by merit still are awarded. An example being Wofford (in South Carolina) has hosted playoff games since that policy was put in place.

I've said it before but I'll say it again. Just because the NCAA applied sanctions in that fashion against SC doesn't mean that's how the sanctions would be applied against North Dakota. However, I still think there is little to no chance the NCAA applies sanctions against the entire state of ND, even though it would be fair....

[ScottM]

I've said it before but I'll say it again. Just because the NCAA applied sanctions in that fashion against SC doesn't mean that's how the sanctions would be applied against North Dakota. However, I still think there is little to no chance the NCAA applies sanctions against the entire state of ND, even though it would be fair....

Oh, I don't know. I was wondering how Jesse, Ron, Russell, etc. would feel if the Sioux moniker was retained after a state-wide vote and all of their "hard work" of the past to erase it from UND as rendered useless by an electoral process. I think they'd find a pretty receptive "academic" audience in the NC$$ Executive Committee that North Dakota is maintaining a "racist" symbol in the moniker. As a practical matter, a state-wide sanctions policy could also be a backdoor way for the NC$$ to advance its agenda against other schools who are not currently on the H&A list by broadening the scope to target states versus schools.