82SiouxGuy Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 This is just not true. Please point to any document that says UND only required one tribes support prior to the lawsuit, especially Spirit Lake. The NC$$ specifically stated that Standing Rocks lack of support was directly responsible for denying UND's appeal: http://origin-minnes...4/28/ncaavsund/ UND has always been treated differently from the schools that got exemptions. There is not one school on the exemption list that was required to get any additional approval beyond the closest namesake tribe. Prior to the lawsuit UND had approval from Spirit Lake. The NC$$ did not want to accept the resolution that was already on the books for this. They kept badgering them for additional statements which Spirit Lake ignored because the chairman at the time was opposed to the name. Every school was required to get written, unambiguous approval from 1 tribe to get put on the approval list. You are right, Spirit Lake had given approval in 2000, but the NCAA wanted proof that the approval still existed. If you read the settlement, the only approval needed from Spirit Lake was written approval from someone with the authority to bind the tribe to a contract. They were willing to use that 2000 approval if the tribe would just put it in writing for them to show that it was still in effect. The Tribal Council would not do that. They didn't even want to put it in writing after the vote in 2009. It took a while before they agreed to do that. UND only had to meet the same standard as every other tribe until the lawsuit was filed. That would have been an easy lawsuit to win, if the NCAA had a separate standard for UND. The standard was written approval from 1 tribe. UND could not get that at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 This whole Alumni thing is almost like a cult When & how did graduates become so compelled to spend their $ on their alma maters They must have professional fundraisers extraordinaire You don't seem to understand the UND Alumni Association, what or why it is. Here's some help: http://www.undalumni.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 pretty slick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rochsioux Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Every school was required to get written, unambiguous approval from 1 tribe to get put on the approval list. You are right, Spirit Lake had given approval in 2000, but the NCAA wanted proof that the approval still existed. If you read the settlement, the only approval needed from Spirit Lake was written approval from someone with the authority to bind the tribe to a contract. They were willing to use that 2000 approval if the tribe would just put it in writing for them to show that it was still in effect. The Tribal Council would not do that. They didn't even want to put it in writing after the vote in 2009. It took a while before they agreed to do that. UND only had to meet the same standard as every other tribe until the lawsuit was filed. That would have been an easy lawsuit to win, if the NCAA had a separate standard for UND. The standard was written approval from 1 tribe. UND could not get that at the time. You keep saying that UND only needed one tribe to approve prior to the lawsuit. Please provide some documentation to support that claim. I provided documentation that specifically stated that Standing Rock denial of support was enough for the NC$$ to deny UND's appeal. This was prior to the lawsuit. BTW, what is the standard that the NC$$ is using ? Can anyone find a document from the NC$$ that specifically spells out what is required for namesake approval exemption ? I'm not sure any document exists, I think they use their own "judgement" on a case by case basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 To my recollection, UND only needed a positive affirmation from one tribe. It's only after UND sued that the settlement agreement called out for two tribes. I'm not surprised the NCAA put in a two tribes requirement. How charitable would you feel after you'd been sued? As to what standard the NCAA is using? Seriously? Which ever one they decide upon. It's their party. They aren't a government entity. They're a private club. Sad, but reality. Read all about the folks who've tried (and failed) to defeat the NCAA in court: http://www.shawlegal...rtsLawPaper.pdf By the way, that document is over 10 years old, and still no one has knocked down the undefeated (in court) champion NCAA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 To my recollection, UND only needed a positive affirmation from one tribe. It's only after UND sued that the settlement agreement called out for two tribes. I'm not surprised the NCAA put in a two tribes requirement. How charitable would you feel after you'd been sued? As to what standard the NCAA is using? Seriously? Which ever one they decide upon. It's their party. They aren't a government entity. They're a private club. Sad, but reality. And even after that requirement became part of the settlement, SL was often indifferent to the whole mess. I believe some of the leadership in the prior regime even refused to meet with Kupchella to discuss the moniker. I still think the lack of any chorus from NoDak's congressional delegation was (and is) a driving force in the different treatment UND received versus FSU and Utah. I don't recall if anybody from Michigan ever stood up for CMU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iramurphy Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 After seeing reports listing the UND Sioux in South Dakota and hearing other parts of the country thinking it was the Sioux playing football when NDSU was playing, what would be the chances that recruits from other parts of the country could confuse NDSU and UND? Seems to me that recruiting could harm South Dakota as well as NDSU and UND as long as the sanctions are in place. Anyone else see this as a possibility? no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonadub Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 After seeing reports listing the UND Sioux in South Dakota and hearing other parts of the country thinking it was the Sioux playing football when NDSU was playing, what would be the chances that recruits from other parts of the country could confuse NDSU and UND? Seems to me that recruiting could harm South Dakota as well as NDSU and UND as long as the sanctions are in place. Anyone else see this as a possibility? Wouldn't you think that recruits are a lot more on top of what school is the Fighting Sioux than some headline writer in Connecticut? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 You keep saying that UND only needed one tribe to approve prior to the lawsuit. Please provide some documentation to support that claim. I provided documentation that specifically stated that Standing Rock denial of support was enough for the NC$$ to deny UND's appeal. This was prior to the lawsuit. BTW, what is the standard that the NC$$ is using ? Can anyone find a document from the NC$$ that specifically spells out what is required for namesake approval exemption ? I'm not sure any document exists, I think they use their own "judgement" on a case by case basis. Here is a link to a statement from Bernard Franklin discussing the issue, http://archives.republicans.edlabor.house.gov/archive/hearings/109th/fc/ncaa121506/franklin.htm. In it he talks about the policy and the appeal process. The sentence below explains a lot. One primary factor that was considered in the review was an unambiguous and affirmative approval of the use of the mascot, nickname or imagery by a “namesake” tribe. Think about if you wanted to go to graduate school. You can tell them that you graduated from an accredited school. But they don't care about that. They want an official transcript from that school. They want official, written confirmation. That's what they wanted from any tribe, official confirmation. Spirit Lake refused to give that. We all want to hate the NCAA. But they did not treat UND any different from any other school until the lawsuit was filed. UND only needed official approval from 1 namesake tribe. None stepped up. Applying a very different standard during the original process by requiring 2 tribes at that time would have been an easy lawsuit to win. The NCAA didn't do that, and that's why UND didn't sue on that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rochsioux Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Here is a link to a statement from Bernard Franklin discussing the issue, http://archives.repu...06/franklin.htm. In it he talks about the policy and the appeal process. The sentence below explains a lot. Think about if you wanted to go to graduate school. You can tell them that you graduated from an accredited school. But they don't care about that. They want an official transcript from that school. They want official, written confirmation. That's what they wanted from any tribe, official confirmation. Spirit Lake refused to give that. We all want to hate the NCAA. But they did not treat UND any different from any other school until the lawsuit was filed. UND only needed official approval from 1 namesake tribe. None stepped up. Applying a very different standard during the original process by requiring 2 tribes at that time would have been an easy lawsuit to win. The NCAA didn't do that, and that's why UND didn't sue on that point. The contention that Spirit Lakes approval back in 2005/2006 would have granted UND an exemption to the policy is not backed by the NC$$'s own response to the lawsuit UND filed. Second, other Sioux Tribes in and around North Dakota officially and clearly condemned continued use of the Sioux name and imagery by UND. The Tribes passed Resolutions, passed confirming Resolutions, wrote letters and otherwise respectfully communicated that 1) they found the nickname degrading, and 2) use of the Sioux name and imagery should cease immediately. UND Ex. R, Attach. 3-11. The message from the Sioux Tribes has been unmistakable. That message vitiates any suggestion that UND has the support of the Tribe whose name it has appropriated. In contrast to the outcry from area Sioux Tribes, the NCAA did not receive such opposition from other Chippewa or Seminole tribes. The cases were not even close. In fact, the NCAA received no Resolutions or other official statements in opposition from Chippewa Tribes in connection with use of the name by CMU. O’Meally Aff., ¶ 12.15 Any opposition by Seminole Tribes to FSU’s use was publicly withdrawn immediately after the Policy was announced. Id. ¶ 10. When the FSU request was heard, there was no opposition by Seminole Tries to FSU’s use of the name and imagery. Id. UND is not similarly situated to FSU or CMU. It may be that the schools that got exemptions from the NC$$ policy did not have any namesake tribes that were vocal opponents of using their nickname, that is what the NC$$ is contending in their legal response. If that is the case then the policy was not applied unfairly, hard to say for sure as there is no written document on how their exemption policy is applied. In UND's case, to blame Spirit Lake for not getting the exemption is unfair and not based on the evidence that I see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Back in 2006 and 2007, SL and SR could have been good, helpful neighbors. They weren't. And that tells me all I need to know. (SL's trying now, but it's an effort I don't expect to succeed in court.) But all that is water under the bridge. The past is the past. What we have now is the settlement agreement. Any other document is of no consequence. The settlement says "keep the name and suffer sanctions" or "drop the name and no sanctions". That is all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySioux Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/230014/group/homepage/ Newest Haga piece Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/230014/group/homepage/ Newest Haga piece They see this fight to save the name is about more than athletics. This is about standing on truth and principle. Where were you in this fight 6-7 years ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySioux Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2012/02/20/und-fighting-sioux-nickname-battle/ "Our track team was set to go to Iowa for a meet in the not to distant future. They called and uninvited us," O'Keefe said. And if the nickname issue isn't resolved, the hockey rivalry between UND and the University of Minnesota will end. "To not be able to play them and continue one of the greatest rivalries in the history of collegiate hockey, I don't know how you could not call that damaging from an institutional, from a program, from a recruiting, from an economic, from a reputational standpoint." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108498 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 For those of you who want to chew me up. I am 19 and a adult so bring the negative comments and death threats. I was living in Grand Forks when the Issue came up in early 2000s so yes I know what went on and how we got bought out at that time. I do want to remind you that we are all Sioux fans. We must fight to make sure the native get thier voice heard after that we must move on like it or not. By the way for those asking if I am slow the anwser is yes, and I still try to live a dream. Say and call me what you want, but when I can speak my mind and still work at going to college; I would say I am doing pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108498 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 If this is about sports; then why not get ride of the community make the college only for athletes and make the school a pre-pro sprots school. The school/sports program would not exist without the fans, and the college it self would not stand without the sports or students. Both are very very important. By the way thanks for noticing. Since everyone knows about me being slow. Is there any IEP offices at UND or scholarships for the dumb and unprepared students.(I do have a 3.6 in college right now) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 "Nickname supporters have disputed the likelihood or severity of those consequences and accused UND administrators and others of orchestrating a groundless fear campaign" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 "Nickname supporters have disputed the likelihood or severity of those consequences and accused UND administrators and others of orchestrating a groundless fear campaign" And meanwhile the "nickname at any cost" crowd remains completely oblivious to the real costs to UND athletics that are already beginning to appear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightingsioux4life Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 "Nickname supporters have disputed the likelihood or severity of those consequences and accused UND administrators and others of orchestrating a groundless fear campaign" And this is my response to them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 It is time to call these people out and point out how reckless and irresponsible they are being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108498 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Ok now I have to say this. Fightingsioux4life I said yesterday that I agreed with you about the name change; however, when you put videos like this up against fellow Sioux fans. You really are making the program look bad. By the way you told me that we had a few years until the name idea will begin. Why do we not lock the name blog down until then. I get so angree seeing it. Let the younger fans like myself have time to adjust without the nasty videos. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Ok now I have to say this. Fightingsioux4life I said yesterday that I agreed with you about the name change; however, when you put videos like this up against fellow Sioux fans. You really are making the program look bad. By the way you told me that we had a few years until the name idea will begin. Why do we not lock the name blog down until then. I get so angree seeing it. Let the younger fans like myself have time to adjust without the nasty videos. Relax FacePalm. You apparently missed the pics Fetch posts about his liasions with various sheep he found on EFarmony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108498 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Do me a favor fightingsioux4life look up Bill Daniels. His leadership and kindness is paying for my college even after he has died. We should all try to be more like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VMeister Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 His leadership and kindness is paying for my college even after he has died. We should all try to be more like him. Just like him, as in dead? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxu31 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Just like him, as in dead? +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108498 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I am starting to see why NDSU FANS say Sioux suck.They are refering to the fans not the players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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