Time for Mr. Kelley To Lead and Not Follow

[82SiouxGuy]

Sorry folks but I must confess that this thread has been a sham...just a thinking exercise for all of you sky-is-falling types out there.

My point to all of you is this...wouldn't our leaders be doing the very things I posted on this thread if indeed we were in peril of losing our Big Sky membership? Of course they would! Wouldn't they be trying to secure support from the members of the league? Wouldn't they be looking at plan B instead of talking about failure as an independent? For heaven's sake, wouldn't the talk coming from them sound more like leadership rather than trying to persuade that the sky is falling and dooms day is near! I would sure hope so...

Fact is we are not in eminent peril of being kicked out of the Big Sky and both Kelley and Faison know this.

If the vote passes which is very likely are we going to face the NCAA sanctions...you bet, for sure we are. We can argue the depth of those ramifications but that is a totally separate argument.

Kelley, Faison, and Fullerton are setting up a smoke screen to get this issue behind us. They want it gone and frankly can you blame them? Surely the Big Sky doesn't want us on NCAA sactions. Obviously it's not good for business but they still believe we are a viable member to bring in otherwise they would have kicked us out already after the original state law vote wouldn't they?...why is this latest petition drive any different than that? The nickname was gone both times and resurected both times...so why kick us out now and not then? Remember what Fullerton said in his interview with McFeeley...he said we are for sure in the Big Sky next year, are not in danger of being kicked out before we enter in August, but would could be considered for removal if we were no longer viable after a period of time with NCAA sanctions and that removal would take a unanimous vote from the 10 presidents. Listen to the audio if you don't believe it.

I agree that UND will probably be in the Big Sky next year. Some of the major players in the conference want UND around. But UND will be on a short leash. Money is important for a conference. But it isn't as important at the lower levels of Division I as the upper levels, mainly because there isn't nearly as much money going through. Image is also important to these conferences. They don't want to look bad and don't want to be associated with schools that will make them look bad. So the chances of UND getting booted out of the Big Sky increase the longer this goes on and if the situation escalates.

But this issue can't go away if the law is re-established or if it is put in the Constitution. That's why people are making a much bigger issue of it now. That's why the Big Sky is trying to head off a problem. They want UND, but don't want the problems associated with the nickname. That's why Faison has come out so much stronger this time. That's why O'Keefe has come out. If the nickname doesn't go away, the penalties and the other nickname associated issues will make UND much less desirable as a conference partner.

[jdub27]

Sorry folks but I must confess that this thread has been a sham...just a thinking exercise for all of you sky-is-falling types out there.

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Boy those guys are good! They even managed to trick Tim O'Keefe.

[Blackheart]

Boy those guys are good! They even managed to trick Tim O'Keefe.

Yeah, and he is super sharp...

[The Sicatoka]

Why are people so upset with Kelley and Faison? The power, the decisions, were never theirs.

The ND SBoHE took control of the issue in 2000 (and many of us cheered then).

When it came time to deal with the NCAA the SBoHE gave Kupchella power to sue the NCAA but then the SBoHE took over the negotiations when the SBoHE decided to settle out of court. Then-chancellor Goetz led the settlement negotiations for the Board with AG Stenejhem representing the State as a whole.

And whose marching orders were those two under? Well, Goetz had been then-Governor Hoeven's chief of staff and Hoeven and Stenejhem were both Rs.

Basically, the then-Governor of ND, John Hoeven, had Goetz and Stenejhem settle. And now Senator Hoeven, a man who could launch Congressional (Federal) hearings about the NCAA and its possible status as a monopoly (anti-trust) is mysteriously silent, again.

So leave Faison, Kelley, and even Kupchella out of this. It was taken out of their hands. Go see the man who could've made a difference.

Hoeven. John Hoeven. The Dartmouth Indi... ,er , I mean Dartmouth Big Green alumnus.

Any questions?

[Chewey]

No matter where this goes, there is a civil war going on here that will continue to damage the university for years to come. Keep the nickname and, outside of men's hockey, there will be damage to the other athletic programs (hockey scheduling notwithstanding), along with anger and resentment by many fans and alumni. Lose the name, and there will be anger and resentment by another group of fans and alumni.

These are as dark days as I've seen for this proud institution.

You can thank Leigh Jeanotte, et al and the NCAA, of course, and Roy Saigo for that. Leigh should just flat out be canned.

[82SiouxGuy]

Why are people so upset with Kelley and Faison? The power, the decisions, were never theirs.

The ND SBoHE took control of the issue in 2000 (and many of us cheered then).

When it came time to deal with the NCAA the SBoHE gave Kupchella power to sue the NCAA but then the SBoHE took over the negotiations when the SBoHE decided to settle out of court. Then-chancellor Goetz led the settlement negotiations for the Board with AG Stenejhem representing the State as a whole.

And whose marching orders were those two under? Well, Goetz had been then-Governor Hoeven's chief of staff and Hoeven and Stenejhem were both Rs.

Basically, the then-Governor of ND, John Hoeven, had Goetz and Stenejhem settle. And now Senator Hoeven, a man who could launch Congressional (Federal) hearings about the NCAA and its possible status as a monopoly (anti-trust) is mysteriously silent, again.

So leave Faison, Kelley, and even Kupchella out of this. It was taken out of their hands. Go see the man who could've made a difference.

Hoeven. John Hoeven. The Dartmouth Indi... ,er , I mean Dartmouth Big Green alumnus.

Any questions?

People or groups that have publicly said that it is time to change the nickname:

Governor Dalrymple, 2/3 of the North Dakota Legislature, the State Board of Higher Education, President Kelley, AD Faison, Tim O'Keefe from the UND Alumni Association along with a group of past presidents of the organization, several past governors of the state of North Dakota, the University Senate, the University Student Senate, the UND Student Government President, Jim Kleinsasser, and plenty more

Doesn't it make sense that these people are trying to do what is best for the University of North Dakota? Doesn't it make sense that these people, most of them actively involved with the school and/or the process, would know more about what is best for the school than tribal members at Spirit Lake, a lawyer in Minot, a blogger in Minot, a talk show host living in Fargo, and others that are part of the nickname-at-all-cost group?

[mg2009]

Kelley has been a huge step up from c-kup.

I have a feeling that this is going to come down to hakstol. If he comes out pro-nickname (as i think he will), it'll pass, and I hope the administration will have the good sense to can his ass.

I'm not sure which way I will vote come D-day. I'm not nearly as tightly bound to the school as most alums, and I really enjoy my schadenfreude with regards to the dead-enders. On the other hand, I don't want to see myself associated with a school who's biggest public front is the national equivalent of a leper.

[The Sicatoka]

People or groups that have publicly said that it is time to change the nickname:

Governor Dalrymple, 2/3 of the North Dakota Legislature, the State Board of Higher Education, President Kelley, AD Faison, Tim O'Keefe from the UND Alumni Association along with a group of past presidents of the organization, several past governors of the state of North Dakota, the University Senate, the University Student Senate, the UND Student Government President, Jim Kleinsasser, and plenty more

Doesn't it make sense that these people are trying to do what is best for the University of North Dakota? Doesn't it make sense that these people, most of them actively involved with the school and/or the process, would know more about what is best for the school than tribal members at Spirit Lake, a lawyer in Minot, a blogger in Minot, a talk show host living in Fargo, and others that are part of the nickname-at-all-cost group?

I agree with you 100%.

However, people need to lay off Kelley and Faison. When there was still a chance to save the name the man in the best position to negotiate with the Tribes and the NCAA was conspicuously absent in person, but maybe not action: John Hoeven.

[Eskimos]

So leave Faison, Kelley, and even Kupchella out of this. It was taken out of their hands. Go see the man who could've made a difference.

Hoeven. John Hoeven. The Dartmouth Indi... ,er , I mean Dartmouth Big Green alumnus.

Any questions?

I do have a question. It is funny how you give UND leadership a pass on every issue.

Do you think by repeatedly commenting on every topic on the name that you are going to bully other people into buying into your argument?

If a Bison fan came in here and was as condescending as you are to other members, they would be banned.

[JohnboyND7]

I agree with you 100%.

However, people need to lay off Kelley and Faison. When there was still a chance to save the name the man in the best position to negotiate with the Tribes and the NCAA was conspicuously absent in person, but maybe not action: John Hoeven.

While UND was busy with their nickname crap, John Hoeven was being a productive member of the state government. This is/was/never will be his responsibility. He isn't an alum. Why would he have cared if UND successfully negotiated or not? He was the governor of North Dakota. Not UND's president or athletic director. Believe it or not, for the majority of North Dakota, this was not a top priority. Hoeven had other things going on.

[Teeder11]

Sic speaks the truth. And your last point is simply false. Bison and Sioux fans condescend each other on here all the time and no one gets banned.

[The Sicatoka]

I do have a question. It is funny how you give UND leadership a pass on every issue.

Do you think by repeatedly commenting on every topic on the name that you are going to bully other people into buying into your argument?

If a Bison fan came in here and was as condescending as you are to other members, they would be banned.

I haven't given UND leadership a pass on every issue. See Caleb Warner matter, and many others.

Bullying? Seriously? If statements of fact or opinion is bullying then we have a major problem. (PS - Love your passive aggressive tactic. )

And I can state quite assuredly, no Bison fan, no fan, has been banned from here for being "condescending" (by your usage) or for commenting in each topic.

[SIOUXTX]

I haven't given UND leadership a pass on every issue. See Caleb Warner matter, and many others.

Bullying? Seriously? If statements of fact or opinion is bullying then we have a major problem. (PS - Love your passive aggressive tactic. )

And I can state quite assuredly, no Bison fan, no fan, has been banned from here for being "condescending" (by your usage) or for commenting in each topic.

OK. So, you give them a pass on 99.999999999% of the issues.

You may want to check the definition of bullying.

And I can state quite assurdely, there are sioux fans who rarely ever visit this site anymore because of your comments on each and every topic.

[82SiouxGuy]

I agree with you 100%.

However, people need to lay off Kelley and Faison. When there was still a chance to save the name the man in the best position to negotiate with the Tribes and the NCAA was conspicuously absent in person, but maybe not action: John Hoeven.

You are correct about Kelley and Faison. They were hired after the settlement was signed. They had nothing to do with that settlement. The State Board of Higher Education had control of the nickname situation. Kelley works for the SBoHE and Faison works for Kelley, so control of the nickname was above their heads. The SBoHE made all of the decisions on the issue and they set the policy. Kelley and Faison were employees doing their jobs.

[firewall]

This may be off topic but I was listening to News and Views on KFGO this morning and the host had Rep. Carlson on so I submitted the following question but it was not asked: "Are the petitions submitted to keep the Fighting Sioux nickname subject to the Open Records Law? Can the public, North Dakota residents, obtain those petitions and be viewed?" It would be interesting to see just who signed and where they are from.

[Oxbow6]

You are correct about Kelley and Faison. They were hired after the settlement was signed. They had nothing to do with that settlement. The State Board of Higher Education had control of the nickname situation. Kelley works for the SBoHE and Faison works for Kelley, so control of the nickname was above their heads. The SBoHE made all of the decisions on the issue and they set the policy. Kelley and Faison were employees doing their jobs.

Not disagreeing with anything above, but there has been a lot of finger pointing as who is to blame...Hakstol, Hoeven, Berg, Conrad, Kelley and Fasion to name a few.

The problem, I as an alum and many other alums I know have, is the fact Kelley and Fasion, particularly Kelley being the president of UND, never at any time came out publicly to acknowledge that the nickname has/had great importance to the university, has meant so much to so many and the loss of the name, right or wrong, will leave a void for those families, and I mean generations of families, that attended UND. Instead, they send Johnson out with his "scrubbing" coments to appease the PC crowd.

I understand my affinity for the name isn't as important as doing what is best for UND and the athletic dept. and I'm in favor of moving on, but I feel Kelley in particular has never shown any empathy or concern for those, like myself and my kids, who have grown up as "Fighting Sioux". His general silence towards what losing this nickname means to so many is appalling. If you are going to "lead" an university, you have to first and foremost have a pulse on the "people" that make up that university and what their feelings are towards an issue affecting the university. Never once have I heard the president of UND address this fact. To me, he has missed the boat on that completely.

BTW I will vote "no" in June.

[Goon]

This may be off topic but I was listening to News and Views on KFGO this morning and the host had Rep. Carlson on so I submitted the following question but it was not asked: "Are the petitions submitted to keep the Fighting Sioux nickname subject to the Open Records Law? Can the public, North Dakota residents, obtain those petitions and be viewed?" It would be interesting to see just who signed and where they are from.

What was the answer?

[homer]

While UND was busy with their nickname crap, John Hoeven was being a productive member of the state government. This is/was/never will be his responsibility. He isn't an alum. Why would he have cared if UND successfully negotiated or not? He was the governor of North Dakota. Not UND's president or athletic director. Believe it or not, for the majority of North Dakota, this was not a top priority. Hoeven had other things going on.

Al Carlson fits the bolded portion of your quote but still felt the need to take it upon himself to do what he felt was the best for the University.

John Hoeven was busy creating a giant oil reserve in Western, ND.

[Blackheart]

Not disagreeing with anything above, but there has been a lot of finger pointing as who is to blame...Hakstol, Hoeven, Berg, Conrad, Kelley and Fasion to name a few.

The problem, I as an alum and many other alums I know have, is the fact Kelley and Fasion, particularly Kelley being the president of UND, never at any time came out publicly to acknowledge that the nickname has/had great importance to the university, has meant so much to so many and the loss of the name, right or wrong, will leave a void for those families, and I mean generations of families, that attended UND. Instead, they send Johnson out with his "scrubbing" coments to appease the PC crowd.

I understand my affinity for the name isn't as important as doing what is best for UND and the athletic dept. and I'm in favor of moving on, but I feel Kelley in particular has never shown any empathy or concern for those, like myself and my kids, who have grown up as "Fighting Sioux". His general silence towards what losing this nickname means to so many is appalling. If you are going to "lead" an university, you have to first and foremost have a pulse on the "people" that make up that university and what their feelings are towards an issue affecting the university. Never once have I heard the president of UND address this fact. To me, he has missed the boat on that completely.

BTW I will vote "no" in June.

Totally agree. The whole transition away from the nickname was going to be done with respect to the Sioux name, etc. and that just didn't happen. Kelley deserves to get some heat for this.

[Feff]

Al Carlson fits the bolded portion of your quote but still felt the need to take it upon himself to do what he felt was the best for the University.

John Hoeven was busy creating a giant oil reserve in Western, ND.

Do you really think he was doing what he thought was best for UND or did he simply take advantage of a volatile political topic to create a better image for himself as well as enable him to take a shot at the SBoHE?

[The Sicatoka]

Do you really think he was doing what he thought was best for UND or did he simply take advantage of a volatile political topic to create a better image for himself as well as enable him to take a shot at the SBoHE?

To the green part: No. (The answer is what you say: " ... enable him to take a shot at the SBoHE.")

To the red part: EPIC FAIL by him.

[BigGreyAnt41]

Al Carlson fits the bolded portion of your quote but still felt the need to take it upon himself to do what he felt was the best for the University.

John Hoeven was busy creating a giant oil reserve in Western, ND.

John Hoeven didn't do any more to "create" the oil reserve than Al Gore did to "create" the internet.

[82SiouxGuy]

Not disagreeing with anything above, but there has been a lot of finger pointing as who is to blame...Hakstol, Hoeven, Berg, Conrad, Kelley and Fasion to name a few.

The problem, I as an alum and many other alums I know have, is the fact Kelley and Fasion, particularly Kelley being the president of UND, never at any time came out publicly to acknowledge that the nickname has/had great importance to the university, has meant so much to so many and the loss of the name, right or wrong, will leave a void for those families, and I mean generations of families, that attended UND. Instead, they send Johnson out with his "scrubbing" coments to appease the PC crowd.

I understand my affinity for the name isn't as important as doing what is best for UND and the athletic dept. and I'm in favor of moving on, but I feel Kelley in particular has never shown any empathy or concern for those, like myself and my kids, who have grown up as "Fighting Sioux". His general silence towards what losing this nickname means to so many is appalling. If you are going to "lead" an university, you have to first and foremost have a pulse on the "people" that make up that university and what their feelings are towards an issue affecting the university. Never once have I heard the president of UND address this fact. To me, he has missed the boat on that completely.

BTW I will vote "no" in June.

I have heard both Kelley and Faison talk about how important the nickname and logo have been to UND. I have heard both of them say that they like the nickname and logo. But it would be difficult for them to make a large public statement of support without a lot of people taking it wrong. Look at the reactions to Tim O'Keefe's letter. People are questioning his allegiance to the nickname and logo, and to the University. That's in spite of his and his family's history at the University. No matter what either Kelley or Faison said, people were going to get upset. In a case like that it is often better to say less. Especially when your bosses are in control of the situation.

[Oxbow6]

I have heard both Kelley and Faison talk about how important the nickname and logo have been to UND. I have heard both of them say that they like the nickname and logo. But it would be difficult for them to make a large public statement of support without a lot of people taking it wrong. Look at the reactions to Tim O'Keefe's letter. People are questioning his allegiance to the nickname and logo, and to the University. That's in spite of his and his family's history at the University. No matter what either Kelley or Faison said, people were going to get upset. In a case like that it is often better to say less. Especially when your bosses are in control of the situation.

So you have heard them say it (insider), but it's difficult for them to say it publically?? Kind like the tree falling in the forest??? Who hears it??

Kudos to "Timmaaaaaaaay"! Least he has stones.

To the bolded comment...how has that worked out to date???

[The Sicatoka]

John Hoeven didn't do any more to "create" the oil reserve ...

I was going to ask how Hoeven created an oil reserve but I figured the answer involved Budweiser and a late-night visit to Taco Bell.