Conference Realignments - Take 2

[BarnWinterSportsEngelstad]

On 8/11/2017 at 3:29 PM, jacksfan29 said:

The Rushmore would need to be blown up and re-built. It is an absolutely terrible venue. That said, sure, could it host? Well, better then Reno, at least it would be filled with mostly SDSU fans. FYI, I see the Summit announced the SLT finished first in mid-major attendance and seventh overall behind only P5 and the Big East. 

http://thesummitleague.org/sports/mbkb/2017-18/releases/20170809otp507

Oh, the Montana's are not coming our way. A lot of you really need to get over that idea. It is not going to happen.

Sioux Falls does a great job with the tourney. Hope it stays for a while.

The Summit is just too unstable, something is bound to change again.  Some kind of merger with Summit and MVFC could stablize things, or Summit starts FB.

[SiouxVolley]

19 hours ago, BarnWinterSportsEngelstad said:

Sioux Falls does a great job with the tourney. Hope it stays for a while.

The Summit is just too unstable, something is bound to change again.  Some kind of merger with Summit and MVFC could stablize things, or Summit starts FB.

It rarely makes sense to merge conferences - as an autobid would be lost and no certainty in gaining  an at-large bid.

But that said, the calender is counting down on the MVC's dance credits, mostly from Wichita St.  In three or four years, those credits could be the same if the MVC becomes a one bid league and the Summit survives.

The MVC wouldn't want to go to 12 unless there are other reason for it, as the share of dance revenue get more diluted.  But with Wichita St forfeiting it's future MVC credits to the league, and new teams possibly not getting a full sure til later, for three or four years it could add to 12 without pain.  The A10 schools that created the credit gets like 60% of their credits, with the league dispersing the rest of it.  That kind of system may lead to more incentives to succeed and expand.

[BarnWinterSportsEngelstad]

1 hour ago, SiouxVolley said:

It rarely makes sense to merge conferences - as an autobid would be lost and no certainty in gaining  an at-large bid.

But that said, the calender is counting down on the MVC's dance credits, mostly from Wichita St.  In three or four years, those credits could be the same if the MVC becomes a one bid league and the Summit survives.

The MVC wouldn't want to go to 12 unless there are other reason for it, as the share of dance revenue get more diluted.  But with Wichita St forfeiting it's future MVC credits to the league, and new teams possibly not getting a full sure til later, for three or four years it could add to 12 without pain.  The A10 schools that created the credit gets like 60% of their credits, with the league dispersing the rest of it.  That kind of system may lead to more incentives to succeed and expand.

Summit and MVFC merging, how would an auto bid be lost? MVFC only has FB. Or, if Summit started FB?

[SiouxVolley]

8 minutes ago, BarnWinterSportsEngelstad said:

Summit and MVFC merging, how would an auto bid be lost? MVFC only has FB. Or, if Summit started FB?

The MVFC already includes the Summit for fb.  A split would be more appropriate, but there needs to be more schools for that to happen and there is no money involved like the dance money

[Yote 53]

Football drives the bus on conference re-alignment at the FBS level.  At the FCS level it is basketball and the NCAA tournament access that drives re-alignment.  The Summit and MVC or the Summit and BSC or the Summit and WAC are not going to merge because that would result in the loss of an autobid to the NCAA BB tournament.  The Summit is going to become one of two things, a strong conference with the Dakota 4 as the backbone leading the conference, or a group of cast-offs that limps along with the Dakota 4 stuck in the middle of the crapfest.  I don't see the Summit surviving without the Dakota 4.

[BarnWinterSportsEngelstad]

The Summit shows no signs of being stable. The MVFC is fairly stable and is filling a need, because the Summit has no football. Actually there are more conferences that don't have FB. Maybe what's needed to make a strong stable conference is to host all the major sports. 

[North Dakota]

If IPFW and WIU bail look for UND, NDSU, USD, SDSU to try to convince UM, MSU, ID and IDS to join. The Summit could sponsor FB and with the new precedent set by Liberty's conference invite waiver the possibility of FBS would be very real. If that happened and NMSU joined it would be one of the better G5 conferences instantly and a pretty good mid major BB conference too. Not to mention that's 9 impressive academic state schools!

[Herd]

On 8/15/2017 at 1:05 PM, North Dakota said:

If IPFW and WIU bail look for UND, NDSU, USD, SDSU to try to convince UM, MSU, ID and IDS to join. The Summit could sponsor FB and with the new precedent set by Liberty's conference invite waiver the possibility of FBS would be very real. If that happened and NMSU joined it would be one of the better G5 conferences instantly and a pretty good mid major BB conference too. Not to mention that's 9 impressive academic state schools!

Liberty has a waiver to go FBS.  They do not have a Waiver to start a new FBS conference.   If 8 FCS teams joined NMSU in the WAC and declared an FBS move, it would be a big IF on whether an FBS WAC would be allowed or not.

[The Sicatoka]

1 hour ago, Herd said:

Liberty has a waiver to go FBS.  They do not have a Waiver to start a new FBS conference.   If 8 FCS teams joined NMSU in the WAC and declared an FBS move, it would be a big IF on whether an FBS WAC would be allowed or not.

Since we're in the "if" world ... 

If 8 random FCS schools each got waivers to go FBS and formed (or just happened to be in) a conference ... 

[SIOUXFAN97]

On 8/15/2017 at 1:05 PM, North Dakota said:

If IPFW and WIU bail look for UND, NDSU, USD, SDSU to try to convince UM, MSU, ID and IDS to join. The Summit could sponsor FB and with the new precedent set by Liberty's conference invite waiver the possibility of FBS would be very real. If that happened and NMSU joined it would be one of the better G5 conferences instantly and a pretty good mid major BB conference too. Not to mention that's 9 impressive academic state schools!

idaho state? no thanks.

[North Dakota]

49 minutes ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

idaho state? no thanks.

Lol you do realize we are already in the same conference right?

 

2 hours ago, Herd said:

Liberty has a waiver to go FBS.  They do not have a Waiver to start a new FBS conference.   If 8 FCS teams joined NMSU in the WAC and declared an FBS move, it would be a big IF on whether an FBS WAC would be allowed or not.

There's nothing stopping 8 FCS schools from seeking a waiver to go FBS separately. Once they are FBS they can have a scheduling alliance, some could call it a conference...

[SiouxVolley]

7 minutes ago, North Dakota said:

Lol you do realize we are already in the same conference right?

 

There's nothing stopping 8 FCS schools from seeking a waiver to go FBS separately. Once they are FBS they can have a scheduling alliance, some could call it a conference...

Idaho St can barely fund a low level FCS program.

If a conference has eight transitioning FBS schools, the NCAA has no choice under its own rules but to declare it an FBS conference when all have completed the transition.

[The Sicatoka]

18 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

If a conference has eight transitioning FBS schools, the NCAA has no choice under its own rules but to declare it an FBS conference when all have completed the transition.

... or change its rules arbitrarily and capriciously.  

[geaux_sioux]

FBS would be a huge mistake. 

[SiouxVolley]

1 hour ago, geaux_sioux said:

FBS would be a huge mistake. 

And UND hockey would be in the WCHA today if not for a major gift.  We need a major gift of an on-campus stadium to even contemplate FBS.  UND has much more going for it than Ball St, Bowling Green, EMU, Akron, Kent St, La-Monroe, USA, Coastal Carolina, Troy, Appalachian St, Georgia Southern and others that are FBS.  What we need is a stadium on-campus, as then FBS becomes a major advertising tool that we don't currently have.

[geaux_sioux]

18 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

And UND hockey would be in the WCHA today if not for a major gift.  We need a major gift of an on-campus stadium to even contemplate FBS.  UND has much more going for it than Ball St, Bowling Green, EMU, Akron, Kent St, La-Monroe, USA, Coastal Carolina, Troy, Appalachian St, Georgia Southern and others that are FBS.  What we need is a stadium on-campus, as then FBS becomes a major advertising tool that we don't currently have.

I would rather be a top tier FCS program than mediocre at best at football.

[The Sicatoka]

Between the fiscal realities of most low tier FBS schools, the basic cost of football, the sundry issues (see: concussions) relating to the sport, and, yes, ultimately the television revenues, I still see a world where the top 70 or so of FBS form a tier, the remaining 40 or so of FBS have no choice but to partner with the top 40 or so of FCS and form a second tier, and the remainder of FCS is the third tier in "Division I FB". 

[Siouxperfan7]

26 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Between the fiscal realities of most low tier FBS schools, the basic cost of football, the sundry issues (see: concussions) relating to the sport, and, yes, ultimately the television revenues, I still see a world where the top 70 or so of FBS form a tier, the remaining 40 or so of FBS have no choice but to partner with the top 40 or so of FCS and form a second tier, and the remainder of FCS is the third tier in "Division I FB". 

So like High school football 

D1AAA

D1AA

D1A

[southpaw]

11 hours ago, SiouxVolley said:

And UND hockey would be in the WCHA today if not for a major gift.  

Source?

[SiouxVolley]

10 hours ago, southpaw said:

Source?

Ralph.  He was very concerned the the Big Ten would form their own league and leave us stranded with Bemidji and Mich Tech.  A lot of people poo-posed this well after Ralphs passing, including some posters here.

If the Ralph hadn't been given, in all likelihood we'd would be playing in the Alerus.  Grand Forks asked UND if they would use Alerus Center ice if that was included, and UND said no.  This was when the Winter Sports Center was known to be a rusting hulk.  With the Alerus, UND would have needed a practice rink on campus and playing football and hockey on the same day would have been impossible.  But mainly, UND would not likely get the top hockey recruits like they do now.  Minny, Wisconsin, BU, BC, DU and maybe UMD would win the vast majority of recruiting battles.  Maybe we beat SCSU and Mankato.

Attendance nearly tripled with the REA and it's doubtful the Alerus would have gone over so well with hockey fans.  UND would have been a relative pauper without the REA.

[southpaw]

On 8/17/2017 at 7:19 PM, SiouxVolley said:

Ralph.  He was very concerned the the Big Ten would form their own league and leave us stranded with Bemidji and Mich Tech.  A lot of people poo-posed this well after Ralphs passing, including some posters here.

If the Ralph hadn't been given, in all likelihood we'd would be playing in the Alerus.  Grand Forks asked UND if they would use Alerus Center ice if that was included, and UND said no.  This was when the Winter Sports Center was known to be a rusting hulk.  With the Alerus, UND would have needed a practice rink on campus and playing football and hockey on the same day would have been impossible.  But mainly, UND would not likely get the top hockey recruits like they do now.  Minny, Wisconsin, BU, BC, DU and maybe UMD would win the vast majority of recruiting battles.  Maybe we beat SCSU and Mankato.

Attendance nearly tripled with the REA and it's doubtful the Alerus would have gone over so well with hockey fans.  UND would have been a relative pauper without the REA.

What? 

You incorrectly assume UND would have made no upgrades/changes to the old Ralph or even built a similar size arena elsewhere on campus. 

The school was coming off two championships and yet without Ralphs gift you think UND hockey would just be a poor little stepchild? 

UND had shown a consistent history of investing in hockey improvements and funding, why would that suddenly stop? 

[SiouxVolley]

1 hour ago, southpaw said:

What? 

You incorrectly assume UND would have made no upgrades/changes to the old Ralph or even built a similar size arena elsewhere on campus. 

The school was coming off two championships and yet without Ralphs gift you think UND hockey would just be a poor little stepchild? 

UND had shown a consistent history of investing in hockey improvements and funding, why would that suddenly stop? 

So you seem to be stating that the Alerus would not have been an upgrade over the old Winter Sports Building.  

Seem to recall that their wasn't sellouts after their 1997 championship.  

We will never know, as UND knew it had a donor in Ralph and wasn't worried.  But no one thought a new arena would be as grand as it was.

[southpaw]

2 hours ago, SiouxVolley said:

So you seem to be stating that the Alerus would not have been an upgrade over the old Winter Sports Building.  

Seem to recall that their wasn't sellouts after their 1997 championship.  

We will never know, as UND knew it had a donor in Ralph and wasn't worried.  But no one thought a new arena would be as grand as it was.

From a newness of building standpoint, the Alerus would have been an upgrade. Otherwise it would have caused major issues on dozens of fronts. 

[fightingsioux4life]

On 8/17/2017 at 8:19 PM, SiouxVolley said:

Ralph.  He was very concerned the the Big Ten would form their own league and leave us stranded with Bemidji and Mich Tech.  A lot of people poo-posed this well after Ralphs passing, including some posters here.

If the Ralph hadn't been given, in all likelihood we'd would be playing in the Alerus.  Grand Forks asked UND if they would use Alerus Center ice if that was included, and UND said no.  This was when the Winter Sports Center was known to be a rusting hulk.  With the Alerus, UND would have needed a practice rink on campus and playing football and hockey on the same day would have been impossible.  But mainly, UND would not likely get the top hockey recruits like they do now.  Minny, Wisconsin, BU, BC, DU and maybe UMD would win the vast majority of recruiting battles.  Maybe we beat SCSU and Mankato.

Attendance nearly tripled with the REA and it's doubtful the Alerus would have gone over so well with hockey fans.  UND would have been a relative pauper without the REA.

We won 5 NCAA titles in that "rusting hulk", the last one in 2000. Heck, we won two in the "The Barn" (a WPA project from the 1930's). We have won exactly ONE in the new REA. I remember in the years before the new REA, Gopher fans yammering on and on about how great Mariucci Arena was and how it was better than a bunch of NHL arenas and what a dump we were playing in. Yet, we won most of the recruiting battles against them from 1996 to 2001.

You make way too many assumptions, Mr. SiouxVolley.

[tnt]

1 hour ago, fightingsioux4life said:

We won 5 NCAA titles in that "rusting hulk", the last one in 2000. Heck, we won two in the "The Barn" (a WPA project from the 1930's). We have won exactly ONE in the new REA. I remember in the years before the new REA, Gopher fans yammering on and on about how great Mariucci Arena was and how it was better than a bunch of NHL arenas and what a dump we were playing in. Yet, we won most of the recruiting battles against them from 1996 to 2001.

You make way too many assumptions, Mr. SiouxVolley.

Agree we held our own in the old building, but not so sure we won most recruiting battles against Minnesota during those years.