GeauxSioux Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 'IT'S NOT A LOGO': Proud of creation, disappointed by its fate, 'Fighting Sioux' artist says symbolism always intended to 'bridge all the gaps' The image Bennett Brien created a dozen years ago, borne into a cauldron of zealous admiration and bitter controversy and destined apparently for retirement by the end of this year, should not be called a logo, the artist insists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakota fairways Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 “It’s not like a ‘Gopher’ or a ‘Badger’ — it’s way above that,” Brien said. “The ‘politically correct’ people misinterpreted it.” You left out the part where Ben wishes he had never created the new logo. Now everyone don't start jumping around saying how would you know that. Ben told me this himself and considering I have known him for 27 years I'll take him at his word. Doesn't sound like he regrets designing the symbol to me. Sounds more like he's proud of the way non-PC people have rallied around his art. Thank you, Mr Brien, for what you did for the University of North Dakota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray77 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 It's this kind of stuff that makes me want to bang my head repeatedly against a brick wall. Lucy Ganje, a professor of art at UND and a member of the Campus Committee for Human Rights, has been a leading opponent of the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Ranger Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 It's this kind of stuff that makes me want to bang my head repeatedly against a brick wall. I know it will never happen but I wish that when the University retires the logo that it retires faculty like Lucy Ganje as well. They can also get rid of the Native American centers and areas of study as well. Since the school isn't supposed to be associated with Native American imagery, why not get rid of all the areas of study as well. I know this certainly won't happen but it would make a point to all the non-native americans pushing for the elimination of "Fighting Sioux" to realize they have cost the natives something as well along with the free education they receive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 The NCAA says some of the logos have to go at the REA...why can't the building be a historical building? If some logos stay due to historical value why can't all the logos stay due to historical value. That Wayne Stenjum really pisses me off the way he f-ed up that settlement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakota fairways Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 ...They can also get rid of the Native American centers and areas of study as well. Since the school isn't supposed to be associated with Native American imagery, why not get rid of all the areas of study as well. I know this certainly won't happen but it would make a point to all the non-native americans pushing for the elimination of "Fighting Sioux" to realize they have cost the natives something as well along with the free education they receive. Do you really want to punish all Native Americans because of something some left wing nuts caused? That is stooping to the level of the PC crowd that is forcing the retirement, despite the fact that most of the tribal members of both Spirit Lake and Standing Rock have actually openly supported the Sioux name and logo (symbol). You sure don't want to force the Native Americans to have to go to NDSU, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayduke Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 That Sioux design is the sharpest and best image in the NCAA...period. I liked the old Blackhawk logo back in my day, and I absolutely hated that geometric design. the one used today is easily the best! Even though I have dozens of Sioux items with that design, I'm going to hoard some more before it goes away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 You sure don't want to force the Native Americans to have to go to NDSU, do you? Nobody should have to receive such an inferior education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 The NCAA says some of the logos have to go at the REA...why can't the building be a historical building? If some logos stay due to historical value why can't all the logos stay due to historical value. That Wayne Stenjum really pisses me off the way he f-ed up that settlement. Question.....UND does not own Ralph Engelstad Arena (or do they now?)....If they do not own the facility, how can they make the place that they rent (used to be for one dollar a year), change what they have at the facility? If UND does not own the facility it doesn't make sense....Thats like a college kid going to his apartment land lord and telling him to take out an entire wall. Or an NDSU grad applying for a job at a bank....it just doesn't make any sense..... If Ralph was alive, I think he would have bankrolled an anti-trust lawsuit against the NCAA.... PS: NDSU shot was at my brother, an NDSU grad, who frequents this forum, yet decides not to post his opinion.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Question.....UND does not own Ralph Engelstad Arena (or do they now?)....If they do not own the facility, how can they make the place that they rent (used to be for one dollar a year), change what they have at the facility? If UND does not own the facility it doesn't make sense....Thats like a college kid going to his apartment land lord and telling him to take out an entire wall. Or an NDSU grad applying for a job at a bank....it just doesn't make any sense..... If Ralph was alive, I think he would have bankrolled an anti-trust lawsuit against the NCAA.... PS: NDSU shot was at my brother, an NDSU grad, who frequents this forum, yet decides not to post his opinion.... UND still does not own the Ralph. And REA does not have to do anything, as it was not a party to the settlement. So really, as far as I can tell, the only punishment the NCAA could conceivably levy as a result of REA failing to remove any Fighting Sioux names/symbols would be to prevent the Ralph from hosting a women's hockey playoff game. However, I assume such a game could still be held at Purpur or elsewhere. Bottom line--UND does not control what REA does, and IMO UND cannot be punished (except as described above) as a result of the actions or non-actions of an entity beyond its control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 UND still does not own the Ralph. And REA does not have to do anything, as it was not a party to the settlement. So really, as far as I can tell, the only punishment the NCAA could conceivably levy as a result of REA failing to remove any Fighting Sioux names/symbols would be to prevent the Ralph from hosting a women's hockey playoff game. However, I assume such a game could still be held at Purpur or elsewhere. Bottom line--UND does not control what REA does, and IMO UND cannot be punished (except as described above) as a result of the actions or non-actions of an entity beyond its control. Thanks sir. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ralph Engelstad have something in his will about the facility going away if the name was changed? I know they won't blow the building up, but I can't see the Engelstad family being happy about the symbol being removed from the arena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Thanks sir. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ralph Engelstad have something in his will about the facility going away if the name was changed? I know they won't blow the building up, but I can't see the Engelstad family being happy about the symbol being removed from the arena. I've always thought that the idea that the name changing would have any bearing on UND's use of the Ralph is probably an urban legend. In any event, I don't believe REA would ever punish UND over something for which it had no real alternative. I would guess that the Ralph will remain more or less as it is now, UND will continue its relationship with REA without change, and the NCAA will choose never to allow the UND women to host a playoff game at the Ralph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I've always thought that the idea that the name changing would have any bearing on UND's use of the Ralph is probably an urban legend. In any event, I don't believe REA would ever punish UND over something for which it had no real alternative. I would guess that the Ralph will remain more or less as it is now, UND will continue its relationship with REA without change, and the NCAA will choose never to allow the UND women to host a playoff game at the Ralph. Which I think allows for the use of Purper Arena. It worked last year when they hosted Bemidji State, and the atmosphere was great. I really hope the NC$$ takes it in the shorts with this one. Their is no way that they can make a private facility, not state or university owned, change something. Sorry NC$$....free speech... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 UND still does not own the Ralph. And REA does not have to do anything, as it was not a party to the settlement. So really, as far as I can tell, the only punishment the NCAA could conceivably levy as a result of REA failing to remove any Fighting Sioux names/symbols would be to prevent the Ralph from hosting a women's hockey playoff game. However, I assume such a game could still be held at Purpur or elsewhere. Bottom line--UND does not control what REA does, and IMO UND cannot be punished (except as described above) as a result of the actions or non-actions of an entity beyond its control. http://www.sports-venue.info/NCAAH/Controversy_at_Ralph_Engelstad_Arena.html There however is a loophole here. Since the arena is not owned by the university and is a private arena rented out to the university by The Englestad trust, which as part of the deal it originally struck with the University during the building process stated that the nickname and logo would not change,UND would have until the year 2031 when it takes over the rights to the building according to contract, to remo ve the over 2000 Fighting Sioux logos that are emblazoned all over the arena. However, up until those renovations take place, without tribal approval of the nickname (which seems unlikely at this point) The University of North Dakota, by NCAA ruling would be unable to host any NCAA tournament games. So in 20 years the logo will be coming off the arena. It is a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnt Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Do you really want to punish all Native Americans because of something some left wing nuts caused? That is stooping to the level of the PC crowd that is forcing the retirement, despite the fact that most of the tribal members of both Spirit Lake and Standing Rock have actually openly supported the Sioux name and logo (symbol). You sure don't want to force the Native Americans to have to go to NDSU, do you? I don't think anybody wants to punish Native Americans that support the nickname. I just wish there was a way to show the PC crowd that actions have consequences... and Standing Rock took actions years ago that led us to go down the road of having Sioux as a nickname by giving permission and having a tribal ceremony. Now, having to change a nickname and the symbol which the University has become synonymous with, will create marketing problems as well as numerous others with alumni and friends who are upset by the whole thing because of the pride factor that will be lost. If I take a job and the commensurate salary with the responsibilities of that job, then decide to take on a less stressful job with less responsibilities, I wouldn't expect to keep the same salary. There are so many Native American programs at UND because the name is Fighting Sioux, plain and simple. Frankly, I think the University of North Dakota is hostile and abusive to Norwegians! Where are the Norwegian programs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNDSiouxFan Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Where are the Norwegian programs? Actually, UND does have a Norwegian program! http://arts-sciences.und.edu/languages/norwegian/index.cfm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teeder11 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Actually, UND does have a Norwegian program! http://arts-sciences.und.edu/languages/norwegian/index.cfm Lots of very good ones! Uff da! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnt Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Actually, UND does have a Norwegian program! http://arts-sciences.und.edu/languages/norwegian/index.cfm I feel like the NCAA, jumping to the "hostile and abusive" conclusions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I feel like the NCAA, ... Bloated? Self-righteous? "Constipated"? Hypocritical? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodcon Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 http://www.sports-venue.info/NCAAH/Controversy_at_Ralph_Engelstad_Arena.html So in 20 years the logo will be coming off the arena. It is a shame. It seems to me when this was being talked about a year or 2 ago someone with knowledge of the settlement said that a bunch of the logos would have to be removed right away, some of the logos such as ones on seats would be replaced as they wear out down the road under normal wear and tear, but the Sioux heads embedded in the concourse floor could stay indefinitely. Is that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray77 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 It seems to me when this was being talked about a year or 2 ago someone with knowledge of the settlement said that a bunch of the logos would have to be removed right away, some of the logos such as ones on seats would be replaced as they wear out down the road under normal wear and tear, but the Sioux heads embedded in the concourse floor could stay indefinitely. Is that correct? I believe that was only in the case that UND wanted to host post season (NCAA) games. And that should only affect women's hockey, as tournament games for men's hockey have moved away from college sites and are hosted at independent, regional sites. The first round of the WCHA tournament wouldn't be included in this (UND could still host if they were a 1-5 seed) as this is the WCHA tournament, not the NCAA tournament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I believe that was only in the case that UND wanted to host post season (NCAA) games. And that should only affect women's hockey, as tournament games for men's hockey have moved away from college sites and are hosted at independent, regional sites. The first round of the WCHA tournament wouldn't be included in this (UND could still host if they were a 1-5 seed) as this is the WCHA tournament, not the NCAA tournament. This is true but in 20 years UND can do what they want to the building so eventually the logos will be disappearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray77 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 This is true but in 20 years UND can do what they want to the building so eventually the logos will be disappearing. Yes, I hear you and understand. I was replying to JodCon's question about logos having to be removed right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 Forgive me of this already been posted.... [url=http://plainsdaily.com/entry/ncaa-willing-to-reconsider-settlement-demands-for-refitting-ralph-engelstad-fighting-sioux-arena/]NCAA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray77 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Forgive me of this already been posted.... [url=http://plainsdaily.com/entry/ncaa-willing-to-reconsider-settlement-demands-for-refitting-ralph-engelstad-fighting-sioux-arena/]NCAA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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