New Nickname

[engelbunny]

This is not true.  There are always going to be people in the market to buy things.  There are several thousand freshman entering UND each year.  All of them have families.  There are new people moving into Grand Forks each year, and some of them will adopt UND as a team to root for.  There are people like myself.  I own multiple jerseys, sweatshirts, tee shirts, sweatpants, etc. with the Sioux or Fighting Sioux names on them.  I have purchased plain North Dakota goods.  I will purchase goods with the new nickname.  I purchase to support the University and to show my support for the University.  I don't buy just to support a nickname and logo.  I graduated from the University of North Dakota, not the University of Fighting Sioux. 

 

There are plenty of people that will choose what merchandise to buy from what is available.  If the only choice is to purchase merchandise with a new nickname and logo, they will choose to buy that merchandise because they want to associate themselves with the teams and the school.  They might even want to support the school.  But if they have a choice between merchandise with the new nickname and logo or choosing merchandise with the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo, a significant number would choose to purchase the Fighting Sioux merchandise.  It has history, is established and better known than a new nickname, and it is a desirable brand.  Under your scenario those dollars would go to the tribes.  That equals a negative sum of money going to UND compared to what could be going to UND.  Again, I support what is best for the University of North Dakota, not what is best for a sports nickname.

 

The problem is your assumption that the world breaks down into hardcore Fighting Sioux fans (people that would only buy Fighting Sioux merchandise) and non-hardcore fans (fans that would not be interested in Fighting Sioux merchandise).  It is true that there are people in both camps.  But there is a large group of people in the middle.  These people will buy what is available and what is more desirable to them based on looks, color, etc.  That etc. could include the name and logo, meaning they would choose Fighting Sioux over the new nickname if they are given a choice, but would purchase new nickname if there is no Fighting Sioux available.  These are the dollars that would be lost to UND every year under the scenario you are promoting.

I am firmly in the no nickname camp, and I explained why.  My decision has nothing to do with marketing dollars, and I already explained that as well. 

 

With regard to marketing money:  Unless the NCAA somehow reverses it policy, UND will be forevermore prohibited from monetizing the Fighting Sioux brand.  It cannot sell the trademarks or copyright nor can it license it in any way associated with the athletic department.  It can do 2 things with it:  Use it every so often in some non-descript way in order to maintain its copyright and trademark, or give it to a recognized Sioux Tribe.  Those are the only options available, therefore it's value to UND is $0.00.

 

I understand that if UND gave the brand to Spirit Lake then potentially "those dollars would go to the tribe(s)".  So what?  They cannot market the name in conjunction with UND.  UND will have their own name. I understand you are fearful that a new name may struggle to get traction if Fighting Sioux and the Brien logo are available elsewhere.  I get all of that, but my consistent thought process starts from a different core point of view - what is the best way to treat the old name with the utmost respect and dignity?  I still come down to 1 of 2 ways:  Silently honor it by not picking a new name, or pick a new name and give Fighting Sioux back to its people.  

[KSSioux]

The premise is simple.  It is easier to sell something (a new nickname and logo) than nothing (what UND currently has for a nickname).  North Dakota is not a sports nickname.  It is the name of the state.  University of North Dakota North Dakota sounds stupid, but that is what you would print out if you were using North Dakota as a nickname.  North Dakota doesn't work well for a lot of chants, "Here we go, North Dakota, here we go (clap, clap)."  We have already seen that the interlocking ND logo is not a big seller, and is confused with Notre Dame.  What UND has been using for the past 3 years is not working from a marketing standpoint, and it isn't working from a cheer standpoint.  All it does is encourage a significant portion of the crowd to continue using Fighting Sioux while others won't use Fighting Sioux.  Yes, people will continue to use Fighting Sioux no matter what is chosen, but a new nickname will give others something they can use other than the name of the state.

 

Yes, the amount of success that a new nickname or logo will have will depend on the quality of the nickname and logo  plus how quickly it is accepted.  I think that the committee will find something that a lot of the non-fanatics will accept.  But I also believe that almost any new nickname and logo will be more successful from a marketing standpoint than what UND is using now.  There are schools out there using Billikens, and Anteaters, and Banana Slugs that have success.

 

I'm not sure what kind of ulterior motive I could have by promoting the selection of a new nickname, especially when I haven't been promoting any specific nickname.  I have seen quite a few that I believe would work, some better than others.  I believe that the committee may have gotten others that would also work that we may not have heard yet.  Every other school that has chosen a new nickname has found one that works for them.  If every other school that has been through a similar process in the past 40+ years (going back to Stanford) has been able to find an acceptable nickname, then I believe that UND can do so also.  So I am very confident that UND will also find a solution that works in spite of the apprehension that some people seem to have about the process.

Your "premise" of a North Dakota logo not being marketable is without any background.  Even your suggestions of Anteaters (Cal-Irvine), and others actually makes a point in that how many of those do you see.  I travel all over the country and outside the country and I have seen "Fighting Sioux" logos everywhere, but never one of the others you mentioned.  A "North Dakota" logo could be marketable, and none of us know how marketable that vs. some other nickname or logo could compare.  The university can not promote any of the "Fighting Sioux" logos other than those kept for historical purposes and so 0$ can be made from that unless they get permission from the NCAA for a historical use at some point maybe for a game.  I doubt that will happen, but is a possibility that I will give you for them making money.   I am correct that the most "popular" nickname suggestions were to be brought forward for a vote (of course you are correct that they have to meet NCAA requirements, and the committees requirements, but that is part of my argument that no nickname will fit under that because someone will make something offensive out of anything that is came up with), and I will hope popular means the suggestion that came up the most.

[The Sicatoka]

Under the settlement agreement UND must maintain its trademark rights to the retired name and logo. As such, UND must use them in commerce at some periodicity. So, there will be some (> $0) coming in from the retired name and logo. 

[Teeder11]

Your "premise" of a North Dakota logo not being marketable is without any background.  Even your suggestions of Anteaters (Cal-Irvine), and others actually makes a point in that how many of those do you see.  I travel all over the country and outside the country and I have seen "Fighting Sioux" logos everywhere, but never one of the others you mentioned.  A "North Dakota" logo could be marketable, and none of us know how marketable that vs. some other nickname or logo could compare.  The university can not promote any of the "Fighting Sioux" logos other than those kept for historical purposes and so 0$ can be made from that unless they get permission from the NCAA for a historical use at some point maybe for a game.  I doubt that will happen, but is a possibility that I will give you for them making money.   I am correct that the most "popular" nickname suggestions were to be brought forward for a vote (of course you are correct that they have to meet NCAA requirements, and the committees requirements, but that is part of my argument that no nickname will fit under that because someone will make something offensive out of anything that is came up with), and I will hope popular means the suggestion that came up the most.

 

I am sure there's a thread on some Cal-Irvine Anteaters message board out there somewhere that boasts about all the Anteater logo sightings that have been witnessed around the world by its fan base, because, um, every fan base seems to have one. Different fan bases notice their beloved logos out in pubic and in the media because they are actually looking for it. The reason we notice so much UND/Fighting Sioux stuff out there is because (A) it's a really cool and a great logo, and (B) because we are actually looking for it.  I do it whenever I go to West Acres in Fargo (or anywhere for that matter in Fargo), visiting my hometown in western North Dakota, attending the State Fair in Minot, whenever I go to the Mall of America, Airports around the world, big public events everywhere, etc. You probably have seen more Cal-Irvine Anteaters stuff out in public during your travels, on TV and in other media than you realize, but it escaped you because you weren't actually fixated on noticing it. 

 

Point is -- your assertion is not unique to UND and its FS nickname and logo. Everyone notices their favorite team's stuff out in public. But it would be great to have something a little more concrete to identify with and rally around moving forward than just the name of our school, even if it takes a few generations for it to be accepted.  You can't tell me that UC Santa Cruz "Banana Slugs" nickname was embraced with open arms right away by the populace, but now it is as beloved to them as the Fighting Sioux nickname is to us.

[KSSioux]

Under the settlement agreement UND must maintain its trademark rights to the retired name and logo. As such, UND must use them in commerce at some periodicity. So, there will be some (> $0) coming in from the retired name and logo. 

You are correct in your statement, and I actually laughed when I saw it in the language about maintaining rights years ago as I was not sure how that could be done.  As I stated previously, this could be done by some historical use in a game or two every couple of years by some athletic team and they would have to sell off those jersey's/sweaters for money to make this happen.  As powerful and corrupt as the NCAA is, I do not think they are above the trademark laws, but nothing will surprise me anymore.

[jdub27]

You are correct in your statement, and I actually laughed when I saw it in the language about maintaining rights years ago as I was not sure how that could be done.  As I stated previously, this could be done by some historical use in a game or two every couple of years by some athletic team and they would have to sell off those jersey's/sweaters for money to make this happen.  As powerful and corrupt as the NCAA is, I do not think they are above the trademark laws, but nothing will surprise me anymore.

 

http://www.undsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=13500&ATCLID=209221876

[KSSioux]

I am sure there's a thread on some Cal-Irvine Anteaters message board out there somewhere that boasts about all the Anteater logo sightings that have been witnessed around the world by its fan base, because, um, every fan base seems to have one. Different fan bases notice their beloved logos out in pubic and in the media because they are actually looking for it. The reason we notice so much UND/Fighting Sioux stuff out there is because (A) it's really cool and a great logo, and (B) because we are actually looking for it.  I do it whenever I go to West Acres in Fargo (or anywhere for that matter in Fargo), visiting my hometown in western North Dakota, attending the State Fair in Minot, whenever I go to the Mall of America, Airports around the world, big public events everywhere, etc. You probably have seen more Cal-Irvine Anteaters stuff out in public during your travels, on TV and in other media than you realize, but it escaped you because you weren't actually fixated on noticing it. 

 

Point is -- your assertion is not unique to UND and its FS nickname and logo. Everyone notices their favorite team's stuff out in public. But it would be great to have something a little more concrete to identify with amd rally around moving forward than just the name of our school, even if it takes a few generations for it to be accepted.  You can't tell me that UCSB Banana Slugs nickname was embraced with open arms right away by the populace, but now it is as beloved to them as the Fighting Sioux nickname is to us.

I do notice other universities logos when I travel, so I disagree somewhat with your assertion about not noticing other universities.  I have been in the LA area a few times and did see a couple of UC-Irvine shirts and sweaters (even some Gaucho stuff).  I am sure they are proud of their logo and I was not mentioning this to demean their logo at all.  I just wanted to point out that having a logo does not mean $, it must mean something to those who want to wear it.

[Teeder11]

I do notice other universities logos when I travel, so I disagree somewhat with your assertion about not noticing other universities.  I have been in the LA area a few times and did see a couple of UC-Irvine shirts and sweaters (even some Gaucho stuff).  I am sure they are proud of their logo and I was not mentioning this to demean their logo at all.  I just wanted to point out that having a logo does not mean $, it must mean something to those who want to wear it.

 

Exactly.

[KSSioux]

http://www.undsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=13500&ATCLID=209221876

I have been aware of this and found it interesting, but have not seen the goods.  It would fit in with maintaining the logos if it is done right, but I will argue how much have you seen from this Dacotah collection since the 2013 launch.

[DamStrait]

The premise is simple.  It is easier to sell something (a new nickname and logo) than nothing (what UND currently has for a nickname).  North Dakota is not a sports nickname.  It is the name of the state.  University of North Dakota North Dakota sounds stupid, but that is what you would print out if you were using North Dakota as a nickname.  North Dakota doesn't work well for a lot of chants, "Here we go, North Dakota, here we go (clap, clap)."  We have already seen that the interlocking ND logo is not a big seller, and is confused with Notre Dame.  What UND has been using for the past 3 years is not working from a marketing standpoint, and it isn't working from a cheer standpoint.  All it does is encourage a significant portion of the crowd to continue using Fighting Sioux while others won't use Fighting Sioux.  Yes, people will continue to use Fighting Sioux no matter what is chosen, but a new nickname will give others something they can use other than the name of the state.

 

Yes, the amount of success that a new nickname or logo will have will depend on the quality of the nickname and logo  plus how quickly it is accepted.  I think that the committee will find something that a lot of the non-fanatics will accept.  But I also believe that almost any new nickname and logo will be more successful from a marketing standpoint than what UND is using now.  There are schools out there using Billikens, and Anteaters, and Banana Slugs that have success.

 

I'm not sure what kind of ulterior motive I could have by promoting the selection of a new nickname, especially when I haven't been promoting any specific nickname.  I have seen quite a few that I believe would work, some better than others.  I believe that the committee may have gotten others that would also work that we may not have heard yet.  Every other school that has chosen a new nickname has found one that works for them.  If every other school that has been through a similar process in the past 40+ years (going back to Stanford) has been able to find an acceptable nickname, then I believe that UND can do so also.  So I am very confident that UND will also find a solution that works in spite of the apprehension that some people seem to have about the process.

What UND has been using for the past 3 years is not working from a marketing standpoint because most people gorged themselves on buying up the remaining Fighting Sioux gear, which has artificially depressed demand for new gear in the near term.  Michigan, Harvard, Stanford, to name but a few, have all done well selling merchandise without emphasizing a nickname.  What's the most popular Michigan chant?  Go Wolverines go?  No, it's Go Blue go.  I think its very possible that well designed no nickname gear could sell every bit as well if not better than new nickname gear.  I have no evidence to support that, but neither do you have evidence to support your position, but somehow I doubt you'll admit that.  I am unlikely to successfully change your opinion on the subject and you are unlikely to successfully change mine.  I will end with this, and hopefully successfully resist the temptation to respond further - literally every UND fan I have asked has stated they would very strongly prefer to remain without a nickname rather than adopting a new one.  Only on this board have I seen fans that feel differently.  It seems likely that you part of the vocal minority.  It was a vocal minority that got their way when the old nickname was abolished.  I have had my fill of the vocal minority.

[UND1983]

What UND has been using for the past 3 years is not working from a marketing standpoint because most people gorged themselves on buying up the remaining Fighting Sioux gear, which has artificially depressed demand for new gear in the near term.  Michigan, Harvard, Stanford, to name but a few, have all done well selling merchandise without emphasizing a nickname.  What's the most popular Michigan chant?  Go Wolverines go?  No, it's Go Blue go.  I think its very possible that well designed no nickname gear could sell every bit as well if not better than new nickname gear.  I have no evidence to support that, but neither do you have evidence to support your position, but somehow I doubt you'll admit that.  I am unlikely to successfully change your opinion on the subject and you are unlikely to successfully change mine.  I will end with this, and hopefully successfully resist the temptation to respond further - literally every UND fan I have asked has stated they would very strongly prefer to remain without a nickname rather than adopting a new one.  Only on this board have I seen fans that feel differently.  It seems likely that you part of the vocal minority.  It was a vocal minority that got their way when the old nickname was abolished.  I have had my fill of the vocal minority.

 

Remain without a nickname so they can keep saying "Sioux" and not seem like an idiot trying to hold onto something that is no longer.  

 

"There isn't a new nickname so I why wouldn't I keep using the old one?"  Do I have that correct?  

[Benny Baker]

It's going to be the University of North Dakota North Stars, anyway.  For any follow up questions, ask Chairman Goehring about UND's efforts to purchase the Minnesota North Stars trademark.

[82SiouxGuy]

What UND has been using for the past 3 years is not working from a marketing standpoint because most people gorged themselves on buying up the remaining Fighting Sioux gear, which has artificially depressed demand for new gear in the near term.  Michigan, Harvard, Stanford, to name but a few, have all done well selling merchandise without emphasizing a nickname.  What's the most popular Michigan chant?  Go Wolverines go?  No, it's Go Blue go.  I think its very possible that well designed no nickname gear could sell every bit as well if not better than new nickname gear.  I have no evidence to support that, but neither do you have evidence to support your position, but somehow I doubt you'll admit that.  I am unlikely to successfully change your opinion on the subject and you are unlikely to successfully change mine.  I will end with this, and hopefully successfully resist the temptation to respond further - literally every UND fan I have asked has stated they would very strongly prefer to remain without a nickname rather than adopting a new one.  Only on this board have I seen fans that feel differently.  It seems likely that you part of the vocal minority.  It was a vocal minority that got their way when the old nickname was abolished.  I have had my fill of the vocal minority.

You are comparing some of the most well known schools in the country, schools like Michigan and Harvard and Stanford, with a small midwestern school.  Those other schools could use almost anything on merchandise without hurting sales.  Two of them use a color for a nickname (Crimson and Cardinal) and they are successful with those names.  That isn't exactly comparing apples and oranges.  Yes, the sales of Fighting Sioux merchandise the past few years has slowed the sales of North Dakota merch.  But there is absolutely no excitement about buying North Dakota stuff.  I don't see that happening in the future.  I can't prove that a new logo would outsell North Dakota merchandise, it is impossible to prove something that hasn't happened yet.  But it appears that every other school that has changed names has had an increase in sales after a nickname or logo change.  People resist change, they don't like change, and they are often afraid of change.  But change can be very good in the long run, and I believe that changing the nickname right now will be a good thing in the long run for the University of North Dakota.

[Ray77]

It's going to be the University of North Dakota North Stars, anyway.  For any follow up questions, ask Chairman Goehring about UND's efforts to purchase the Minnesota North Stars trademark.

 

I've heard the same.

[82SiouxGuy]

Your "premise" of a North Dakota logo not being marketable is without any background.  Even your suggestions of Anteaters (Cal-Irvine), and others actually makes a point in that how many of those do you see.  I travel all over the country and outside the country and I have seen "Fighting Sioux" logos everywhere, but never one of the others you mentioned.  A "North Dakota" logo could be marketable, and none of us know how marketable that vs. some other nickname or logo could compare.  The university can not promote any of the "Fighting Sioux" logos other than those kept for historical purposes and so 0$ can be made from that unless they get permission from the NCAA for a historical use at some point maybe for a game.  I doubt that will happen, but is a possibility that I will give you for them making money.   I am correct that the most "popular" nickname suggestions were to be brought forward for a vote (of course you are correct that they have to meet NCAA requirements, and the committees requirements, but that is part of my argument that no nickname will fit under that because someone will make something offensive out of anything that is came up with), and I will hope popular means the suggestion that came up the most.

Have you ever bought a new car that is a different color than what you normally buy?  Maybe you bought it because it was something different that you don't see every day.  You didn't want one that was white or black like everyone else.  What happens next?  You will see that color vehicle every time you turn around.  It wasn't part of your regular consciousness before you bought that color and you weren't looking for it.  After you buy it you will notice every one that goes by.  This is exactly what happened to me a couple of years ago when I bought a pickup, and it happened to me when I bought a red car several years ago.  I had no idea that there were so many grey-blue pickups or garnet red cars on the road.

 

That is what Teeder is talking about.  You like the Fighting Sioux logo and want to see it, so you notice every one that goes by.  You aren't looking for a Banana Slug logo so you may or may not see them as they go by.  I have no idea how much Banana Slug merchandise is sold or exists compared to Fighting Sioux.  But I am quite sure that there is more Banana Slug merchandise out there than either one of us would naturally expect.

[petey23]

Have you ever bought a new car that is a different color than what you normally buy?  Maybe you bought it because it was something different that you don't see every day.  You didn't want one that was white or black like everyone else.  What happens next?  You will see that color vehicle every time you turn around.  It wasn't part of your regular consciousness before you bought that color and you weren't looking for it.  After you buy it you will notice every one that goes by.  This is exactly what happened to me a couple of years ago when I bought a pickup, and it happened to me when I bought a red car several years ago.  I had no idea that there were so many grey-blue pickups or garnet red cars on the road.

 

That is what Teeder is talking about.  You like the Fighting Sioux logo and want to see it, so you notice every one that goes by.  You aren't looking for a Banana Slug logo so you may or may not see them as they go by.  I have no idea how much Banana Slug merchandise is sold or exists compared to Fighting Sioux.  But I am quite sure that there is more Banana Slug merchandise out there than either one of us would naturally expect.

I have a Banana Slug Hoodie....I also have some LBSU Dirtbag gear.

[82SiouxGuy]

I have a Banana Slug Hoodie....I also have some LBSU Dirtbag gear.

I could have seen myself wearing Dirtbag stuff when I was younger, I don't think I could see myself doing so now.  Do they use that nickname any more?

[jdub27]

I have been aware of this and found it interesting, but have not seen the goods.  It would fit in with maintaining the logos if it is done right, but I will argue how much have you seen from this Dacotah collection since the 2013 launch.

There has only been the original release.  There will be more in the future.

 

Michigan, Harvard, Stanford, to name but a few, have all done well selling merchandise without emphasizing a nickname.  

Does their logo look very similar and easily confused with a larger, more recognizable college such as Notre Dame?  Probably doesn't hurt that those schools themselves are recognizable on a national level like Notre Dame either.

[UNDErmines]

Okay, all of the cool kids are making a final-day push for Ermines.

 

Going with Ermines will be the best marketing idea the school has ever had.  It's unique, it's identifiable to North Dakota, it's both fierce and adorable, and it's above any potential criticism.  How can you not like a logo with these possibilities?

 

ERMINES!  Go suggest it now.  Do it. 

 

[fightingsioux4life]

Okay, all of the cool kids are making a final-day push for Ermines.

 

Going with Ermines will be the best marketing idea the school has ever had.  It's unique, it's identifiable to North Dakota, it's both fierce and adorable, and it's above any potential criticism.  How can you not like a logo with these possibilities?

 

ERMINES!  Go suggest it now.  Do it. 

 

I must admit, it's a cute little animal.

 

But that is what makes it a bad choice for an sports nickname.

[Shawn-O]

I've heard the same.

Please tell me you guys are kidding.

[bigskyvikes]

Please tell me you guys are kidding.

I've heard the same, also just "Stars"

[Ray77]

Please tell me you guys are kidding.

 

Nope...I'm not kidding.  However, I don't have "inside sources" and I'm not saying this is a lock or 95%, or anything like that.  I'm not a GOBC member.  Just saying what I'm hearing.

[Benny Baker]

Please tell me you guys are kidding.

No joke.  I'm also not saying that UND will absolutely become the "North Stars".  But I will go to my grave saying that Karl Goehring and UND have been attempting to acquire the Minnesota North Stars trademark.  This, I do know for a fact.

[82SiouxGuy]

No joke.  I'm also not saying that UND will absolutely become the "North Stars".  But I will go to my grave saying that Karl Goehring and UND have been attempting to acquire the Minnesota North Stars trademark.  This, I do know for a fact.

I am pretty sure that Stars and North Stars are owned by the Dallas franchise of the NHL.  One of the criteria is that a name can't be chosen if it is owned (trademarked) by someone else.  It is possible that they are doing their due diligence to see if it is possible to obtain use of either Stars of North Stars in case the name is popular.  It wouldn't mean that the name has been chosen, only that they are following through on the process.  Neither name can even be on the list to be considered as long as the trademark is controlled by someone else.