ShilohSioux Posted May 5, 2011 Author Posted May 5, 2011 why would we schedule und when we already play one or two patsies a year. we already schedule st. francis, wagner, and the likes and beat them by 30+ every year. what would scheduling another patsy win do for us? just sayin. So it's fine for you to admit NSDU wants to play and in fact purposely schedules "patsies" but you still bash UND for its 2011 schedule? Oh, the hypocrisy.
Bison Dan Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 It truly is amazing the spin given by some NDSU supporters when it was NDSU that left the NCC and division 2, not UND although UND did follow 5 years later. No matter how it is spun, it was NDSU that left the rivalry. UND was unwilling, given the rules for making the playoffs at the time, to hurt its chance of making the playoffs (NDSU fans like to point out to rules that were changed later to back their claim that the rules didn't hurt UND making the playoffs but again, it wasn't the rules at the time when NDSU left the NCC and changed divisions). This whole argument is old. There is no reason that UND and NDSU shouldn't play an annual game. I hear comments about playing more home games (I'll accept that), want a money game against a FBS team (greed), not wanting to hurt their playoff chances by only playing patsies (opposite of UND's position above where they didn't wish to play a team in an upper division where the rules, not the opponent, would hurt its playoff chances - I'll give this a pass although my first inclination is to say it is wrong as the goal of the teams are to make the playoffs and a win against a team in the division helps them make the necessary wins to make the playoffs, the only thing I can think is NDSU fans are chalking up games against UND as a loss), and then there is the fallback to that UND left the rivalry (UND contributed by not wanting to play them when it hurt their chances to make the playoffs but it was NDSU that walked away - making the argument that UND left the rivalry is a bad argument and basically represents conceding that it is NDSU's fault that the games are no longer being scheduled based on the previous points). Since you want to talk about it. Yes NDSU made the move up but only after trying to get the rest of the NCC on board. NDSU and SDSU even stayed an extra year (UNC went a year earlier) waiting. Face it UND was comfortable with the present setup with hockey being king. As far as the rules for the playoffs they were changed the same year RT held his famous press conference. Or you can say the schools that left had the insight and leadership to see the changing landscape in DII and made the move up. UND took the wait and see what would happen attitude and couldn't take the fan pressure after NDSU's sucessful transition. Winning big games with the Gophers, Badgers, Ball State, CM, KU and Marquette they couldn't stand NDSU's success, so you made the move. As far as continuing the series UND continues to make it hard by demanding a every year game (I doubt they would want that today) and turing down an every other year contract. Who knows what will happen..
darell1976 Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Since you want to talk about it. Yes NDSU made the move up but only after trying to get the rest of the NCC on board. NDSU and SDSU even stayed an extra year (UNC went a year earlier) waiting. Face it UND was comfortable with the present setup with hockey being king. As far as the rules for the playoffs they were changed the same year RT held his famous press conference. Or you can say the schools that left had the insight and leadership to see the changing landscape in DII and made the move up. UND took the wait and see what would happen attitude and couldn't take the fan pressure after NDSU's sucessful transition. Winning big games with the Gophers, Badgers, Ball State, CM, KU and Marquette they couldn't stand NDSU's success, so you made the move. As far as continuing the series UND continues to make it hard by demanding a every year game (I doubt they would want that today) and turing down an every other year contract. Who knows what will happen.. That was before we had an invite to the Big Sky. Fielding 7 OOC games makes sense to have the game every year, BUT now we just need 3 OOC games like NDSU so I think UND's position has changed on a yearly game.
jodcon Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 As far as continuing the series UND continues to make it hard by demanding a every year game (I doubt they would want that today) and turing down an every other year contract. Who knows what will happen.. I think the every other year game has some merit at this point, but getting people to agree on it is another thing entirely. I don't think UND would want to commit to anybody non-conference every year now that they are in a 13 team league, it's a whole different ballgame than having 4 conference games. EDIT: Beat me to it darell!
VMeister Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Since you want to talk about it. Yes NDSU made the move up but only after trying to get the rest of the NCC on board. NDSU and SDSU even stayed an extra year (UNC went a year earlier) waiting. Face it UND was comfortable with the present setup with hockey being king. As far as the rules for the playoffs they were changed the same year RT held his famous press conference. Or you can say the schools that left had the insight and leadership to see the changing landscape in DII and made the move up. UND took the wait and see what would happen attitude and couldn't take the fan pressure after NDSU's sucessful transition. Winning big games with the Gophers, Badgers, Ball State, CM, KU and Marquette they couldn't stand NDSU's success, so you made the move. As far as continuing the series UND continues to make it hard by demanding a every year game (I doubt they would want that today) and turing down an every other year contract. Who knows what will happen.. Not getting into the pissing match or downplaying how well NDSU has done... UND would have started their exploratory year in July of 2007. At that time NDSU football was still in the GWFC and the only signature win on your list that had happened was Ball State.
Hansel Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Not getting into the pissing match or downplaying how well NDSU has done... UND would have started their exploratory year in July of 2007. At that time NDSU football was still in the GWFC and the only signature win on your list that had happened was Ball State. The MBB wins over Wisconsin and Marquette, and the WBB win over Minnesota were all in 06.
darell1976 Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 NDSU fans blame UND for breaking the rivalry. Scenario this: 2003-2004 the rivalry continues when NDSU moves to the Great West....then NDSU moves to the MVFC; Does NDSU continue the rivalry even though one of their OOC games every year would've been to DII UND?? Or would GT break the rivalry because NDSU wants 6 home games and an FBS game. So you could almost guarantee the rivalry would be broken sooner or later unless they were to be in the same conference.
VMeister Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 The MBB wins over Wisconsin and Marquette, and the WBB win over Minnesota were all in 06. I realized those two basketball wins were both in 2006. I was talking only about football. I didn't even know that WBB beat Minnesota.
HowBoutThemBison? Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Sigh ... revising history must be so rewarding 1. NDSU chose to leave the NCC 2. NDSU chose to leave DII 3. NDSU had lost 10 of the last 11 football games to UND 4. NDSU was all about maintaining the football game once they had dozens more scholarships than UND and were recruiting at the DI transition level5. UND was still eligible for making DII playoffs and hosting playoff games - playing outside DII had been proven to hurt a team's DII playoff and hosting opportunities. Must be rewarding? You might know a little something about it. 1. Invited the other Dakota schools and informed them we were thinking about it...hmm...UND/USD see that NDSU/SDSU are doing good and follow suit... 2. I guess winning 97, 98, 2000, only counts as one game? And I think a playoff win for the bison is somewhere in there too, maybe some for the Sioux as well, not sure. 3. UND cut ties with NDSU, straight and simple because "it'd hurt hosting playoff games," last time I checked, you guys won't even be allowed that opportunity for well.....eternity now so it must not have been that important to you then either. So I do not think that would be a valid argument. UND had the opportunity to move up with NDSU, decided not to, and in the first few years of our transition, the game still would have been fine as you do not get all the scholarships right away on the field. For the issues of scheduling right now, both sides can point fingers but UND has nothing to lose right now, they are getting terrible attendence(we'll see if new conference helps), losing a lot of games, etc. NDSU has more to lose, recruiting battles, money(don't want to waste time on road OOC games). I still want it on the schedule, but only if it doesn't interfere with NDSU's current goals, the Nickel isn't what I want, I just want to see how bad NDSU would lay the wood down on UND right now. 2
HowBoutThemBison? Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 So it's fine for you to admit NSDU wants to play and in fact purposely schedules "patsies" but you still bash UND for its 2011 schedule? Oh, the hypocrisy. UND's schedule is notorious for being weak. NDSU does play a bad team every year, sometimes two, but we also schedule FBS games annually. Yes, you scheduled Texas Tech, well done, but I'm not giving you bonus points for accepting money to go get killed by a team in transition. 1
darell1976 Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Must be rewarding? You might know a little something about it. 1. Invited the other Dakota schools and informed them we were thinking about it...hmm...UND/USD see that NDSU/SDSU are doing good and follow suit... 2. I guess winning 97, 98, 2000, only counts as one game? And I think a playoff win for the bison is somewhere in there too, maybe some for the Sioux as well, not sure. 3. UND cut ties with NDSU, straight and simple because "it'd hurt hosting playoff games," last time I checked, you guys won't even be allowed that opportunity for well.....eternity now so it must not have been that important to you then either. So I do not think that would be a valid argument. UND had the opportunity to move up with NDSU, decided not to, and in the first few years of our transition, the game still would have been fine as you do not get all the scholarships right away on the field. For the issues of scheduling right now, both sides can point fingers but UND has nothing to lose right now, they are getting terrible attendence(we'll see if new conference helps), losing a lot of games, etc. NDSU has more to lose, recruiting battles, money(don't want to waste time on road OOC games). I still want it on the schedule, but only if it doesn't interfere with NDSU's current goals, the Nickel isn't what I want, I just want to see how bad NDSU would lay the wood down on UND right now. So my post is correct if the rivalry was still in tact NDSU would've broken it because UND would be a road OOC game. Thank you for proving my point.
Smoggy Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 UND's schedule is notorious for being weak. NDSU does play a bad team every year, sometimes two, but we also schedule FBS games annually. Yes, you scheduled Texas Tech, well done, but I'm not giving you bonus points for accepting money to go get killed by a team in transition. But we're supposed to give you bonus points for playing the weakest teams in FBS and taking the money? You can't have it both ways.
darell1976 Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 But we're supposed to give you bonus points for playing the weakest teams in FBS and taking the money? You can't have it both ways. If we did the NDSU way we would be playing Eastern Michigan or Western Kentucky every year.
Bison06 Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 If we did the NDSU way we would be playing Eastern Michigan or Western Kentucky every year. I may be wrong, but I believe that Central Michigan played a bowl game the year NDSU beat them. So, while the FBS teams NDSU has beaten haven't exactly been USC, they haven't been bottom dwellers either. I am of the opinion that it doesn't make sense for either school to schedule this game yearly. Ideally, for me anyway, this rivalry is renewed in a playoff game in the next 5 years. I think an objective person would agree NDSU has way more to lose than to gain at this point when compared with UND.
Sioux-cia Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 I think an objective person would agree NDSU would have way more to lose when they lose to UND. Fixed your post.
Bison06 Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Fixed your post. Clever. Of course that is always a concern when you are playing a rivalry type of game, but I am honestly curious, what has UND done in the last couple of years to warrant this feeling that seems to be coming from the UND fanbase that UND would win that game. I have spoken with many level headed Sioux fans (former players) recently that say the program has tanked in the last 5 years and say the level of play at NDSU is far superior. I have always thought UND had a great program and will get back to the point where they are relevant on the national stage. I am not here to talk trash at all, I just find it interesting that you have had two of your worst seasons in the last 20 years the last two years and all of a sudden you think UND is the team to beat.
UND1983 Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Clever. Of course that is always a concern when you are playing a rivalry type of game, but I am honestly curious, what has UND done in the last couple of years to warrant this feeling that seems to be coming from the UND fanbase that UND would win that game. I have spoken with many level headed Sioux fans (former players) recently that say the program has tanked in the last 5 years and say the level of play at NDSU is far superior. I have always thought UND had a great program and will get back to the point where they are relevant on the national stage. I am not here to talk trash at all, I just find it interesting that you have had two of your worst seasons in the last 20 years the last two years and all of a sudden you think UND is the team to beat. Nobody said UND is the "team to beat". If you recall NDSU was 3-8 just two years ago and the only reason you got in the playoffs this year was because of an expanded field, money, and 3-4 other teams all losing on the last week of the year (Poly). You guys seem to have short memories. In a normal year you would have spent all winter chastising Bohl for getting shutout by the worst defense in the MVFC. But, to your credit you bought a home game against a dog and then went on the road and beat the Big Sky Champ. Just try and keep things in perspective. Also, as far as how UND would do vs. NDSU - the Bison are the exact type of team that UND does well against defensively. Run first and can't pass to save their lives. UND's offense wouldn't do a damn thing though against NDSU's D.
Sioux-cia Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 ...all of a sudden you think UND is the team to beat. Who said UND is the team to beat? We have just said we will beat NDSU; which we would.
Bison06 Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 Nobody said UND is the "team to beat". If you recall NDSU was 3-8 just two years ago and the only reason you got in the playoffs this year was because of an expanded field, money, and 3-4 other teams all losing on the last week of the year (Poly). You guys seem to have short memories. In a normal year you would have spent all winter chastising Bohl for getting shutout by the worst defense in the MVFC. But, to your credit you bought a home game against a dog and then went on the road and beat the Big Sky Champ. Just try and keep things in perspective. Also, as far as how UND would do vs. NDSU - the Bison are the exact type of team that UND does well against defensively. Run first and can't pass to save their lives. UND's offense wouldn't do a damn thing though against NDSU's D. Of course I remember the 3-8 season, I don't have a short memory at all. I am a very level headed fan. I have followed both programs very closely over the past decade and regardless of records any given year I am not alone in thinking NDSU has a better product right now. You may not be one of them, but I have spoken with many Sioux fans who agree with that. I think to say that NDSU doesn't want to play the game because they are scared to lose is over-simplifying the issue. The issue is NDSU has absolutely nothing to gain by playing the game. Do you agree that at this point in the history of the rivalry, UND has far more to gain by playing NDSU than vice versa?
darell1976 Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 Clever. Of course that is always a concern when you are playing a rivalry type of game, but I am honestly curious, what has UND done in the last couple of years to warrant this feeling that seems to be coming from the UND fanbase that UND would win that game. I have spoken with many level headed Sioux fans (former players) recently that say the program has tanked in the last 5 years and say the level of play at NDSU is far superior.I have always thought UND had a great program and will get back to the point where they are relevant on the national stage. I am not here to talk trash at all, I just find it interesting that you have had two of your worst seasons in the last 20 years the last two years and all of a sudden you think UND is the team to beat. Tanked is a harsh word. Just because we aren't on top of the FCS doesn't mean our program has tanked it. We didn't go from the top of the DII world to the bottom of the FCS. We could be like NDSU and be ranked #1 in the polls, have all this hype then do nothing when playoffs are on the line (except last season). Nobody cares when you can't win the title (and not the GWFC title either). I don't know if UND would beat NDSU, and I don't know if NDSU would beat UND they don't play. Of course Sioux fans will say UND will win, and Bison fans will say NDSU will win. Anybody can beat anybody. Play the game then we'll talk.
darell1976 Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 Of course I remember the 3-8 season, I don't have a short memory at all. I am a very level headed fan. I have followed both programs very closely over the past decade and regardless of records any given year I am not alone in thinking NDSU has a better product right now. You may not be one of them, but I have spoken with many Sioux fans who agree with that. I think to say that NDSU doesn't want to play the game because they are scared to lose is over-simplifying the issue. The issue is NDSU has absolutely nothing to gain by playing the game. Do you agree that at this point in the history of the rivalry, UND has far more to gain by playing NDSU than vice versa? Only SOS.
Bison06 Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 Tanked is a harsh word. Just because we aren't on top of the FCS doesn't mean our program has tanked it. We didn't go from the top of the DII world to the bottom of the FCS. We could be like NDSU and be ranked #1 in the polls, have all this hype then do nothing when playoffs are on the line (except last season). Nobody cares when you can't win the title (and not the GWFC title either). I don't know if UND would beat NDSU, and I don't know if NDSU would beat UND they don't play. Of course Sioux fans will say UND will win, and Bison fans will say NDSU will win. Anybody can beat anybody. Play the game then we'll talk. Maybe tanked is a harsh word, but not considering what most have come to expect from the UND program. When did NDSU have all this hype and not make the playoffs? When we went 3-8 two years ago? No hype from me, most NDSU fans knew that without a decent quarterback we would never get it done. There will always be hype surrounding the NDSU football team, not the same but similar to UND hockey. Being the premier program at a school tends to lend itself well to fans over-hyping the talent of a team. You're right it's easy to sit back and say this team would beat that team. I don't see any reason why NDSU would want to play UND right now. In the eyes of a lot of people in the area, if you aren't one of them fine, NDSU has the perception of being the superior program. This helps with recruiting, fund-raising, student interest etc. If we play again and let's say we lose, then we have lost the perception of being superior. If we win, people will still believe we are the superior program. I don't see any advantage strategically for NDSU to play this game.
Ole in MSP Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 Tanked is a harsh word. Just because we aren't on top of the FCS doesn't mean our program has tanked it. We didn't go from the top of the DII world to the bottom of the FCS. We could be like NDSU and be ranked #1 in the polls, have all this hype then do nothing when playoffs are on the line (except last season). Nobody cares when you can't win the title (and not the GWFC title either). I don't know if UND would beat NDSU, and I don't know if NDSU would beat UND they don't play. Of course Sioux fans will say UND will win, and Bison fans will say NDSU will win. Anybody can beat anybody. Play the game then we'll talk. Not wanting to be a negative Nelly, as some on here always think I am, but given the level of play last year and the deficiencies at WR and QB, UND would have to improve dramatically at those positions with very young talent to beat the Bison. It just is not realistic right now. Frankly I was really embarassed by the Sioux performances last year against USD, and against SDSU and Idaho. Even more so than getting ambushed by Sioux Falls as that was damn poor preparation. NDSU beat MSU badly on the road and almost beat the ultimate national champion. UND has a program that is improving quickly, but we have to be honest with ourselves that NDSU has done an excellent job in the transition to FCS football and right now would win 4 out of 5 times. A couple years from now hopefully it would be 50/50. Even though KU and Minnesota were weak programs at the time, beating them has to be recognized as well done. Until UND gets over than hump or we are in the FCS playoffs we do not have much to say. 1
darell1976 Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 Maybe tanked is a harsh word, but not considering what most have come to expect from the UND program. When did NDSU have all this hype and not make the playoffs? When we went 3-8 two years ago? No hype from me, most NDSU fans knew that without a decent quarterback we would never get it done. There will always be hype surrounding the NDSU football team, not the same but similar to UND hockey. Being the premier program at a school tends to lend itself well to fans over-hyping the talent of a team. You're right it's easy to sit back and say this team would beat that team. I don't see any reason why NDSU would want to play UND right now. In the eyes of a lot of people in the area, if you aren't one of them fine, NDSU has the perception of being the superior program. This helps with recruiting, fund-raising, student interest etc. If we play again and let's say we lose, then we have lost the perception of being superior. If we win, people will still believe we are the superior program. I don't see any advantage strategically for NDSU to play this game. I read posts from Bison fans on AGS and on BVille when NDSU was ranked #1 in the polls during their GWFC years people were crying out for the NCAA to bend the rules and let them in the playoffs, then their first year of playoff eligibility they did...NOTHING! The second year...Nothing 3rd year ...Flopped (3-8), it took 4 years to finally make the playoffs and barely made it.
petey23 Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 I may be wrong, but I believe that Central Michigan played a bowl game the year NDSU beat them. So, while the FBS teams NDSU has beaten haven't exactly been USC, they haven't been bottom dwellers either. I am of the opinion that it doesn't make sense for either school to schedule this game yearly. Ideally, for me anyway, this rivalry is renewed in a playoff game in the next 5 years. I think an objective person would agree NDSU has way more to lose than to gain at this point when compared with UND. Beating Central Michigan is far and away the most impressive win NDSU has had since moving up.
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