NCAA Meeting - On Fighting Sioux or Et Tu Brute?

[PhillySioux]

This quote from the NCAA email fairly and clearly seems to state their position:

"The NCAA and the University of North Dakota have agreed to the parameters of the NCAA's Native American mascot policy and we remain ready to assist the institution in it's implementation."

And, is Kelley questioning whether UND will be able to remain in the NCAA with this statement/question in his letter to Goetz:

"UND will need clarification [from the NCAA] concerning the relationship the University will have with the NCAA regarding the impact of HB1263 on the 2007 settlement agreement".

Not sure what he is getting at there.

IMO, he's not concerned about membership, hes concerned about whether UND and the NCAA will work together to navigate post-legislation waters or be stonewalled by the NCAA's "its your problem not ours" attitude.

[CAS4127]

IMO, he's not concerned about membership, hes concerned about whether UND and the NCAA will work together to navigate post-legislation waters or be stonewalled by the NCAA's "its your problem not ours" attitude.

Well, his letter should be a public record and therefore open to our review. Perhaps he will rephrase it, because the latter portion makes no sense as it stands.

the relationship the University will have with the NCAA regarding the impact of HB1263 on the 2007 settlement agreement

I just can't figure out what the hell he is asking. And, no, I am not being d**k and trying to rub anything in, I am serious. What is he trying to ask?

[Goon]

Well, his letter should be a public record and therefore open to our review. Perhaps he will rephrase it, because the latter portion makes no sense as it stands.

I just can't figure out what the hell he is asking. And, no, I am not being d**k and trying to rub anything in, I am serious. What is he trying to ask?

No I don't think your your being a dick, I think that letter makes Kelley look like a bumbling buffoon that has no idea how to lead. It's like he is looking for someone to save him.

[wsdSIOUXfalls]

Perhaps I'm getting too cynical - but when reading these letters between Goetz, Kelley & the NCAA (along with anything printed in the Herald) -

I feel I need to ask myself... "What are they trying to get me to think?" They know anything they put in writing can easily become public, so could

easily be playing "Wag the dog". I don't doubt for a minute that they might try to manipulate what people think by what was or wasn't put

in these letters; or what,how & when the Herald reports on these issues (or made these letters available to the public). Not saying I know

anything specific, but just a caution to be aware that there are often reasons we'll never know behind what info is or isn't given out...

[PhillySioux]

No I don't think your your being a dick, I think that letter makes Kelley look like a bumbling buffoon that has no idea how to lead. It's like he is looking for someone to save him.

Name calling aside, the guy seems to understand that UND is on an island right now*. The NCAA doesn't have to support UND one bit (and likely wont) and quite frankly neither does the Legislature or the Governor now that they have put pen to paper on the nickname legislation. UND is boxed in and some getting some clarification as to who will be in UND's boat seems prudent.

* Yes, yes I know its his fault.

[ScottM]

Name calling aside, the guy seems to understand that UND is on an island right now*. The NCAA doesn't have to support UND one bit (and likely wont) and quite frankly neither does the Legislature or the Governor now that they have put pen to paper on the nickname legislation. UND is boxed in and some getting some clarification as to who will be in UND's boat seems prudent.

* Yes, yes I know its his fault.

The NC$$ has no reason to lift a finger to help UND. As far as they are concerned the matter was settled when Judge Jahnke signed his order. And their lawyers will probably tell them, if they haven't already, that any further meetings on the issue are unnecessary. At the very least NoDak's open meetings laws probably would not be conducive to any further discussions outside of litigation.

[CAS4127]

Perhaps I'm getting too cynical - but when reading these letters between Goetz, Kelley & the NCAA (along with anything printed in the Herald) -

I feel I need to ask myself... "What are they trying to get me to think?" They know anything they put in writing can easily become public, so could

easily be playing "Wag the dog". I don't doubt for a minute that they might try to manipulate what people think by what was or wasn't put

in these letters; or what,how & when the Herald reports on these issues (or made these letters available to the public). Not saying I know

anything specific, but just a caution to be aware that there are often reasons we'll never know behind what info is or isn't given out...

I agree, and don't think you are being too cynical. I think it is quite possible Kelley put that question in the letter knowing UND/Sioux supporters would gain access to it, and knowing that the question at least appears to suggest that retaining the nickname/mascot could effect whether UND remains a member of the NCAA and or is accepted to D1. I doubt strongly that the nickname issue will have any effect on UND's membership in the NCAA or move to D1, but, given my cynical side, I wonder if Kelley is attempting to suggest otherwise to UND/Sioux supporters in an attempt to gain their support for retiring the nickname. Perhaps the wording of the quesion is poor because that is exactly what he was doing, but wasn't sure how to state it, or stated it poorly just to draw attention to it. It's interesting, at least for me, to attempt to analyze what is being said without saying it, For example, in the NCAA email, the NCAA, in reference to the April 22nd meeting states that it is declining the "invitation to that meeting". Does that mean the NCAA would attend a different meeting, if invited, after the SBoHE/UND and the legilature come to an agreement on what effect the bill has on the settlement agreement or after the ND Supreme Court rules on the constitutionality of the bill (if it goes the litigation route)? Who knows. One scenario could be that the SBoHE/UND agrees with the bill and will not challenge it, and the nickname remains. Would the NCAA then attend a meeting to discuss the mascot issue?

See what I mean???

[GeauxSioux]

I heard this on the way home from work and thought it appropriate in the fight to save the Sioux name....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOqk_q4NLLI

Great station.

[darell1976]

I heard this on the way home from work and thought it appropriate in the fight to save the Sioux name....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOqk_q4NLLI

Great station.

Fits perfectly!!!!

[dakota fairways]

All other things aside (like Kelly referring to UND's "apparent breach of the settlement agreement"), you can't blame the NCAA for not wanting this to turn in to a circus. Maybe they thought they would come and have a nice showdown on the side of the SBoHE, UND administrators and the AG in a game of chicken to put the legislators in their place. They don't deal in public, they make public pronouncements. They still have bigger fish to fry, as in Ohio State, and all the media hoopla has probably made them think twice, so they have now decided that its just not worth it to put up with all this stuff in little ol' North Dakota.

[SIOUXNDFAN]

All other things aside (like Kelly referring to UND's "apparent breach of the settlement agreement"), you can't blame the NCAA for not wanting this to turn in to a circus. Maybe they thought they would come and have a nice showdown on the side of the SBoHE, UND administrators and the AG in a game of chicken to put the legislators in their place. They don't deal in public, they make public pronouncements. They still have bigger fish to fry, as in Ohio State, and all the media hoopla has probably made them think twice, so they have now decided that its just not worth it to put up with all this stuff in little ol' North Dakota.

Its all very messy, politically that is...and who wants to fight a whole state of Fighting Sioux Fans.....

[SooToo]

The NC$$ has no reason to lift a finger to help UND. As far as they are concerned the matter was settled when Judge Jahnke signed his order. And their lawyers will probably tell them, if they haven't already, that any further meetings on the issue are unnecessary. At the very least NoDak's open meetings laws probably would not be conducive to any further discussions outside of litigation.

Agree wholeheartedly. Kelley, rather than a "bumbling bafoon," looks to me like a quy who understands the NCAA holds most if not all the cards at this time. The NCAA appears to want a clarification on the constiutional question before wading any further into this issue. Regardless of whether you believe their stated reason for cancelling, it's probably a prudent position on their part.

[The Sicatoka]

Why would the NCAA want to get into the middle of a mess between the Legislature and the SBoHE?

[ticklethetwine]

Why would the NCAA want to get into the middle of a mess between the Legislature and the SBoHE?

Sounds like they were going to before it became open to the public.

[mikejm]

Why would the NCAA want to get into the middle of a mess between the Legislature and the SBoHE?

They don't have to.

The NCAA is a private club, and therefore can set its own rules. UND doesn't have to belong; but if the University wants to be a part of the NCAA, the rules are clearly laid out.

Now, but an act of the state legislature, the University cannot comply with the club rules.

1st level worst case: the Sioux get into post-season play and wear generic uniforms.

2nd level worst case: who the heck knows?

I don't, however, see the NCAA kicking the University out of the club.

[ScottM]

I don't, however, see the NCAA kicking the University out of the club.

No, but they can still treat UND like a "red headed stepchild" for not toeing the line, which could have adverse consequences for student-athletes, and affect possibly affect recruiting and/or conference affiliations down the road. Never underestimate the vindictiveness of a monopoly ...

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Et tu Brute seems like a very good forum heading considering that it is likely the SBOHE, UND Administration, and the possibly the AG will stab all of the UND Fighting Sioux fans in the back when it came to the meeting...

BobIwabuchiFan

[mikejm]

No, but they can still treat UND like a "red headed stepchild" for not toeing the line, which could have adverse consequences for student-athletes, and affect possibly affect recruiting and/or conference affiliations down the road. Never underestimate the vindictiveness of a monopoly ...

Everyone in the world knew that was the outcome if the University decided to stick with the logo/nickname.

The only surprise is the NCAA saying, "yeah, we'll meet" and then backing out.

[dagies]

Everyone in the world knew that was the outcome if the University decided to stick with the logo/nickname.

The only surprise is the NCAA saying, "yeah, we'll meet" and then backing out.

I've been wondering if the new president was willing to give talks a "go" until Franklin and the Policy cronies got in his ear and said "WHOA now, what are you doing? We don't have to meet anyone half-way".

[ScottM]

Everyone in the world knew that was the outcome if the University decided to stick with the logo/nickname.

The only surprise is the NCAA saying, "yeah, we'll meet" and then backing out.

I'm surprised they even agreed to meet in the first place, especially in NoDak. I presume their lawyers pulled the Prez aside, and pointed out the open meeting laws, as well the constitutional mess the legislation caused. Why get involved in somebody's family feud? They can sit back and see how that unfolds, and they're still holding the best hand at this point.

[Herd]

Your attorney signed an agreement with the NCAA to retire the nickname. I don't see why the ncaa would care at all about the legislative action taken and state politics, it simply cements und's position and clarifies the situation for the ncaa. Now the ncaa simply needs to lay out the consequences associated with violating your agreement and not retiring the nickname. Hopefully for the und, the ncaa will not up the anti on the consequences . . . nothing would shock me at this point. Will the ncaa tred lightly or set an example?

[CMSioux]

Thanks for caring. The NCAA has no reason to "up the ante" and wishing won't make it so. We know what the consequences were originally set up to be - no hosting and no logo on play off jerseys. It could change for the better but no reason they would change them for the worse when that is part of their original agreement. Sorry to disappoint you.

As has been stated many times, hosting is a pipe dream in basketball and hockey, could happen in football but if given a choice between a name that has been a part of the school's history for 60+ years or someday hosting a football playoff game - I know what choice I would make. Keep in mind some schools have to wait 20 years between hosting a home football game.

And again you can wish that it will impact recruiting, but the truth to the type of student athletes that UND recruits a scholarship is a scholarship, especially if the school has the major you are looking for - highly doubt that not being able to host a playoff football game will stop many true student athletes from coming especially with the BIG SKY on the horizon. Again wishing won't make it so.

But thanks for caring and stopping by.

[Herd]

Thanks for caring. The NCAA has no reason to "up the ante" and wishing won't make it so. We know what the consequences were originally set up to be - no hosting and no logo on play off jerseys. It could change for the better but no reason they would change them for the worse when that is part of their original agreement. Sorry to disappoint you.

As has been stated many times, hosting is a pipe dream in basketball and hockey, could happen in football but if given a choice between a name that has been a part of the school's history for 60+ years or someday hosting a football playoff game - I know what choice I would make. Keep in mind some schools have to wait 20 years between hosting a home football game.

And again you can wish that it will impact recruiting, but the truth to the type of student athletes that UND recruits a scholarship is a scholarship, especially if the school has the major you are looking for - highly doubt that not being able to host a playoff football game will stop many true student athletes from coming especially with the BIG SKY on the horizon. Again wishing won't make it so.

But thanks for caring and stopping by.

As a transitional ncaa member, there will be plenty of sleepless nights. You don't think the ncaa is in a leverage position in this matter? They can't be thrilled that und is not honoring its legal agreement . . . we will see.

[PhillySioux]

Thanks for caring. The NCAA has no reason to "up the ante" and wishing won't make it so. We know what the consequences were originally set up to be - no hosting and no logo on play off jerseys. It could change for the better but no reason they would change them for the worse when that is part of their original agreement. Sorry to disappoint you.

As has been stated many times, hosting is a pipe dream in basketball and hockey, could happen in football but if given a choice between a name that has been a part of the school's history for 60+ years or someday hosting a football playoff game - I know what choice I would make. Keep in mind some schools have to wait 20 years between hosting a home football game.

And again you can wish that it will impact recruiting, but the truth to the type of student athletes that UND recruits a scholarship is a scholarship, especially if the school has the major you are looking for - highly doubt that not being able to host a playoff football game will stop many true student athletes from coming especially with the BIG SKY on the horizon. Again wishing won't make it so.

But thanks for caring and stopping by.

That is correct with respect to men's hockey. However, the top four seeds for women's hockey all host NCAA playoff games. Just a clarification.

[star2city]

As a transitional ncaa member, there will be plenty of sleepless nights. You don't think the ncaa is in a leverage position in this matter? They can't be thrilled that und is not honoring its legal agreement . . . we will see.

What is clear is that you are so giddy about the potential for trial and travail to befall UND, the shear anticipation will keep you from sleeping.

The NCAA has far bigger issues - like the latest Auburn cash-payment charges - that if it dared disrupt UND's transition when far more corrupting influences are present, the media and Congress would be on its case.