Negotiated Settlement?

[The Sicatoka]

... its just easier to complain and make a fuss then to actually come up with solutions.

Teddy Roosevelt would say something about how it's easier to be the critic than the man in the arena.

[Sioux87]

Unfairly? Didn't they always tell us it should be their decision?

That's what still has me chuckling in all of this:

Ron His Horse is Thunder finally gets his dream, the power to make "Fighting Sioux" go away, and now he's complaining, complaining!, that it was dropped in his lap and he really doesn't want it.

Heck of a leader he must be.

Well maybe we should tax casino money and drop all Indian studies and scholarships for natives at UND. I believe sometime back someone said the natives get free schooling at UND. Is this right ?

[Goon]

Teddy Roosevelt would say something about how it's easier to be the critic than the man in the arena.

Hum, I think I would of liked him... Hey he was a hunter as well wasn't he?

[mksioux]

There's a lot of bashing of the lawyers, particuarly the A.G.. Just remember that the lawyers make recommendations, but the clients make the final decision. If you absolutely hate this settlement, then blame the State Board of Higher Education because they were the ones that made the decision. You can bet that the AG was given settlement parameters in a previous closed door session. He negotiated the best deal he could, and the Board approved the settlement this morning. If the Board wanted to fight this to the end, this settlement would have never happened. Just keep that in mind when bashing the A.G.

[terbele]

I believe the sooner we drop it and move on the better off we will be. There isnt a better nickname or logo (any of them) in the country. However, we cannot have this hanging over our heads on a yearly basis. Let's win as the University of North Dakota. Period.

If the tribes havent been able to agree in 15 years, they can now have it. Yes, we can be stubborn Germans - but how about using the next $900k for scholarships, move to D1 excellence, and teachers salaries. Unfortunately there are a few prof's i would like the chance to vote on the money to be given to them, but that aint'a gonna happen.

[Sioux87]

I believe the sooner we drop it and move on the better off we will be. There isnt a better nickname or logo (any of them) in the country. However, we cannot have this hanging over our heads on a yearly basis. Let's win as the University of North Dakota. Period.

If the tribes havent been able to agree in 15 years, they can now have it. Yes, we can be stubborn Germans - but how about using the next $900k for scholarships, move to D1 excellence, and teachers salaries. Unfortunately there are a few prof's i would like the chance to vote on the money to be given to them, but that aint'a gonna happen.

Yes, we do need to move on, but it still stinks.

[Oxbow6]

The issue that I struggle with, and have since this nickname issue came up, is the fact the UND has one of the largest Indian colleges on it's campus in the nation and those who work and are educated in that college are the one's who are barking the loudest--i.e. Leigh Jeanotte and the rest of the campus PC tools!

As many others on this board, I support financially both UND athletics and the general educational endowment. Leigh Jeanotte and other Indian college employees and students speaks of a "hostile and abusive" nickmane and campus enviroment, but still are willing to except, public and PRIVATE, dollars in the form of salary and scholarships from that same "hostile and abusive" university and it's financial supporters. Talk about hypocritical and biting the hand that feeds you.

If the tribes, along with the students and staff of the Indian college at UND, continue to oppose the nickname and it is dropped in 3 years, I know I will struggle to continue to support the educational endowment as some of my money (in taxes as well), even though it probably is a small percentage, is going to the salaries and and scholarships of those in the Indian college.

This could be a long-term win-win situation with the logo/nickname, Sioux heritage and Indian college on campus, but PC always seems to trump common sense in today's society. If the Sioux tribe fails to support the nickname in 3 years, so be it. The fact remains that Indian tribe's in this state do, and will continue to, have bigger societial issues to deal with down the road. But past history tells us that those issues probably won't be dealt with with same vigor and zeal.

To further my point from earlier this morning and it has be said many times in this thread, the leadership for the native American people will eventually be called on the carpet by it's own people down the road if and when the nickname is dropped. To me, Jeanotte and His Horse Is Thunder are the equivalent of Jesse Jackson and AL Sharpton to this state's Indian population. Both are constantly pointing the finger at others for ALL the Indian problems of this state. Tell me what either has done to lift up the Indian community in a positive fashion?? The PC, minority, liberal bent posed by both of these "leaders" has worn thin to say the least. When has either taken up the soap box against Indian high school drop-out rates, teen pregnancy rates, unemployment rates and I could go on and on...

[Goon]

There's a lot of bashing of the lawyers, particuarly the A.G.. Just remember that the lawyers make recommendations, but the clients make the final decision. If you absolutely hate this settlement, then blame the State Board of Higher Education because they were the ones that made the decision. You can bet that the AG was given settlement parameters in a previous closed door session. He negotiated the best deal he could, and the Board approved the settlement this morning. If the Board wanted to fight this to the end, this settlement would have never happened. Just keep that in mind when bashing the A.G.

That being said he will not be getting my vote, because if you think about it his office lead the lawsuit and this is the best that we can come up with. I would have rather we lost in court than give in like this. Why spend 900,000.00 if your going to do this. That is crappy leadership in my opinion.

[siouxhockeyfan11]

Well maybe we should tax casino money and drop all Indian studies and scholarships for natives at UND. I believe sometime back someone said the natives get free schooling at UND. Is this right ?

I agree if the name goes take away their scholarships and their discounts and their programs

[Mr. Excitement]

I find it interesting that tribal leaders such as Ron His Horse Is Thunder is not very supportive of this settlement. Why would he be against it? The ball in now in his court and it is his and the other tribal leaders decision now. What is he afraid of? If he is a true leader and does represent his people than he should be happy that he has final say. If I was in his shoes and was fighting hard for a change that I could not control and suddenly it was mandated that the decision was mine to make I would welcome it with open arms.

Perhaps he is not comfortable with this settlement for a number of reasons. Maybe he is not representing his people and these silent majority voices will now be heard. Maybe he is more comfortable doing the finger pointing and now is a little uptight that all the finger will be pointing back at him. Maybe he is afraid of the light shining on him and is not comfortable being under the microscope for some reason.

It is very interesting that he and other leaders are not happy with the ultimate say on this matter...

[BIGSIOUX]

I think we got more than 900k in legal fees.

If we would of lost, we have to retrofit the Ralph so we can actually use it. Its nice not to have a 120M facility be basically useless to our athletic programs.

I think thats what we wanted in the end. Acting all doom and gloom over a mascot is pretty rediculous. They retracted the 'hostile and abusive' bit, and have simply outlawed NA mascots. Tough s&!t, if the only reason you follow UND sports is the mascot and nickname, you aren't as much of a fan as you claim. I swear, sometimes this forum can be confused with a jr high blog.

[mksioux]

The biggest question mark I have with this settlement agreement is that if UND does not get namesake approval, it contemplates a new nickname. What happens if UND chooses not to have a nickname, at least for a period of time? Do we have to adopt a new nickname to get off the NCAA list? After my initial review of the agreement, it appears UND has to adopt a new nickname to get off the list. I certainly don't like that aspect of the settlement. I would have much rather it read that UND simply has to drop the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo if it can't get namesake approval.

[The Whistler]

I think we got more than 900k in legal fees.

If we would of lost, we have to retrofit the Ralph so we can actually use it.

NO then we would have reverted to the original sanctions that only would have applied during post season NCAA play. For hockey at least that'd amount to maybe one regional every four or five years at the best, right.

No under the Stenejhem protocol we have to give up the logo during the regular season if the tribes don't agree.

I don't see where this was a good deal at all.

[BIGSIOUX]

NO then we would have reverted to the original sanctions that only would have applied during post season NCAA play. For hockey at least that'd amount to maybe one regional every four or five years at the best, right.

No under the Stenejhem protocol we have to give up the logo during the regular season if the tribes don't agree.

I don't see where this was a good deal at all.

I guess if the only thing that is important to you is hockey, and you dont care to see post season play, your right. If your a fan of UND athletics, and support basketball, football, volleyball, etc; your logic seems pretty selfish.

ITS a JERSEY, same team without it.

[jimdahl]

NO then we would have reverted to the original sanctions that only would have applied during post season NCAA play. For hockey at least that'd amount to maybe one regional every four or five years at the best, right.

No under the Stenejhem protocol we have to give up the logo during the regular season if the tribes don't agree.

I don't see where this was a good deal at all.

I don't think that's quite right either. Under the settlement, if we don't give up the logo we'll be subject to the original sanctions, just as before; I don't see that the settlement gives any additional new punishments if we don't give up the logo. See section 2.d.

Therefore, this is better than just losing -- all we've lost is the right to further lawsuits on the subject, but we gained three years to work it out, and get to keep historical and load-bearing logos in non-owned venues.

[GeauxSioux]

Sports Illustrated article Fighting Sioux name lawsuit settled

"The settlement confirms that the Sioux people and no one else should decide whether and how their name should be used," Bernard Franklin, an NCAA senior vice president, said in a statement.

The settlement includes a statement by the NCAA calling UND is a "national leader in offering educational programs to Native Americans."

Board of Higher Education President John Q. Paulsen said he was pleased by the recognition.

"The University of North Dakota deserves to have its honor restored in terms of its long-standing commitment to programs for Native American students," Paulsen said.

[The Whistler]

I don't think that's quite right either. Under the settlement, if we don't give up the logo we'll be subject to the original sanctions, just as before; I don't see that the settlement gives any additional new punishments if we don't give up the logo. See section 2.d.

Therefore, this is better than just losing -- all we've lost is the right to further lawsuits on the subject, but we gained three years to work it out, and get to keep historical and load-bearing logos in non-owned venues.

The Herald did say:

UND must win tribal sanction for its Fighting Sioux nickname and logo within three years or retire them, according to a settlement agreement approved today between the State Board of Higher Education and the NCAA.

But it wouldn't be the first time the Herald got it wrong.

So we got three years of time to kick this around and keep some of the architecture. I wouldn't have settled for that.

So what happens the mythical day the Ralph gets turned over to the University? Jackhammers?

[avsfan]

So what happens the mythical day the Ralph gets turned over to the University? Jackhammers?

The Ralph will never get turned over to the U. No booze sales = No profit = Higher tuition to cover the bills.

[GeauxSioux]

From Article 2.c.

"...namesake approval from Standing Rock shall be adopted by any means allowed in the Tribe's Constitution and shall be in writing. ..."

Does anyone know what means are allowed in the Tribe's constitution?

Is it possible that the AG office knows of a means to obtain approval from both Spirit Lake and Standing Rock of which we are not aware?

[MafiaMan]

Here come your University of North Dakota Prairie Knights!

What's good for the goose...?

Prairie Knights Casino

[The Whistler]

I just read the settlement agreement. Schedule A has the items the NCAA is deigning us to keep. Some pictures and banners, the Sitting Bull Memorial, a couple sculptures, a plaque, and the logos in the floor.

That's it, the rest of it has to be out by 2012.

Great work Wayne, you rock!

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

This is not cool. I read through the settlement, and I did not find anything that I did not already know. I do not like it.

[The Sicatoka]

I find it interesting that tribal leaders such as Ron His Horse Is Thunder is not very supportive of this settlement. Why would he be against it? The ball in now in his court and it is his and the other tribal leaders decision now. What is he afraid of? If he is a true leader and does represent his people than he should be happy that he has final say. If I was in his shoes and was fighting hard for a change that I could not control and suddenly it was mandated that the decision was mine to make I would welcome it with open arms.

Perhaps he is not comfortable with this settlement for a number of reasons. Maybe he is not representing his people and these silent majority voices will now be heard. Maybe he is more comfortable doing the finger pointing and now is a little uptight that all the finger will be pointing back at him. Maybe he is afraid of the light shining on him and is not comfortable being under the microscope for some reason.

It is very interesting that he and other leaders are not happy with the ultimate say on this matter...

Isn't it great! We get to see their true colors.

[GeauxSioux]

Weren't there elections last month at Standing Rock. Perhaps there has been a change in the council that is more supportive of the population and he isn't liking that fact???

I agree with The Sicatoka, the fact that Standing Rock and Spirit Lake have to put up or shut up will be interesting to watch. It's like someone who is running for office and they are continually tearing down their opponent. They finally win the election and say "now what do I do", only this is worse because not only can it cost you your personal prestige it can also cost the people of Standing Rock and Spirit Lake in the long run. A weight has just been put on Ron His Horse is Thunder. He won't sleep well tonight.

I'm placing the odds on getting approval at 50/50. If it doesn't happen, we move on. If that happens, the real losers in the situation are going to be the people of Standing Rock and Spirit Lake and they can look within for blame.

[luapsided]

I disagree. We don't have Native American programs so we can keep/use the Fighting Sioux name and logo. We have them because our institution is in North Dakota and it's the right thing to do. We offer Native American programs so NAs can get an education, so they can shed the cloak of 'victim', so they can move forward. Hopefully, they go back to their reservations and help fight alcoholism, promote health and education, and stop the vicious cycle of 'us against them'.

The name changes so do rules. The native americans pay tuition as typical student do and they have to pay for the changes needed to alter the name(such as the changes needed in the ralph). It sickens me to know that sioux members out there totally agree with the name but others out there do not? ITS INSANE that this issue is even an issue with that alone! I dont like smoking in bars, others dont mind. Its not exactly the same but it does represent the idea of conflicting ideas and beliefs that everyone faces on a day to day basis. Its one thing if all sioux indians have the same beliefs but the fact that this ISNT the case so the subject should be thrown out of the picture.

Ill make damn sure that everthing I buy from here on out has a big ass sioux head on it. I wear it with pride and with no negativity what so ever. EVER! Ill hold my breath now......