Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[fightingsioux4life]

The NCAA doesn't have anything to do with the TV contracts for college football. The conferences and schools have their own contracts. So I'm not sure which contract negotiating session you are talking about, the one for NCAA tournaments? A small incident like this wouldn't even be on either the NCAA or ESPN radar. Plus, FSU has the right to use the nickname and imagery from the NCAA, and ESPN was just mimicking FSU. The NCAA isn't going to cause a fuss over that. It is doubtful that anyone other than some sensitive UND fans and maybe a few Native American activists would care about this, and the Native American activists probably don't watch much college football.

Well, I just wouldn't put anything past those corporate-suit wearing stiffs.

[ScottM]

I watched College Gameday today as well, saw students in war paint, pictures of dudes in suits with warpaint and feathers painted on by the fans. Saw a picture of Zach Galifinakis with an arrow through his head. Gave me a pit in the stomach, thinking of how UND respected the name, and FSU and their fans make a mockery of it. BUT, the Seminole tribe says it is okay.....

Please don't point out our hypocrisy in a public forum. It makes us uncomfortable as we count our money and push our social engineering agendas.

Sincerely,

NC$$ Management

[CMSioux]

This does support that UND was held to a different standard and that situations were blown way out of proportion (the sorority party that was continually brought up as an example of ongoing disrespect). One video segment I saw had Lee K throwing a native american headress across the set. Even if the Seminole Tribe approves the use of the name there must be tribes across the country that would take issue with the treatment of sacred items such as headresses and eagle feathers and students showing up in war paint and native american dress. It was easy for the NCAA to pick on a small college in a small state. Big picture is nothing was accomplished by making UND drop its nickname.

[82SiouxGuy]

This does support that UND was held to a different standard and that situations were blown way out of proportion (the sorority party that was continually brought up as an example of ongoing disrespect). One video segment I saw had Lee K throwing a native american headress across the set. Even if the Seminole Tribe approves the use of the name there must be tribes across the country that would take issue with the treatment of sacred items such as headresses and eagle feathers and students showing up in war paint and native american dress. It was easy for the NCAA to pick on a small college in a small state. Big picture is nothing was accomplished by making UND drop its nickname.

Blaming the NCAA for what someone does on an ESPN broadcast isn't much different than blaming the NCAA for what the Washington Redskins do with their nickname. Or blaming the NCAA when the Atlanta Braves fans do the tomahawk chop. The NCAA has no control over either ESPN or the Washington Redskins or the Atlanta Braves. They do business with all 3. But the most they could do with ESPN is to ask that it doesn't happen again.

The NCAA didn't single out the University of North Dakota. They singled out 30+ schools that had Native American names or imagery. They ended up giving about 6 of them passes because their local tribes gave permission to the schools within a set time period. UND couldn't do that. UND couldn't get the proper permissions when they got a second chance. The other 20 something schools had to change a name or lose NA imagery. UND was part of that group. No one expected this to cure all problems or eliminate any references to Native Americans immediately. Dwelling on every incident isn't going to help anyone and is just going to drag out the pain even longer.

If Lee Korso actually threw the headdress, ESPN should be upset about that. That is an insult to many tribes. He may not be aware of that. But if someone wanted to actually accomplish something, alerting ESPN to that fact would be a good thing so that it doesn't happen again.

[SWSiouxMN]

If Lee Korso actually threw the headdress, ESPN should be upset about that. That is an insult to many tribes. He may not be aware of that. But if someone wanted to actually accomplish something, alerting ESPN to that fact would be a good thing so that it doesn't happen again.

Don't know if anyone knows this fact, or anyone cares at all, but Mr. Corso is a Florida State Alum.

[MissSioux85]

NCAA: Most logos can stay at the Ralph Engelstad Arena

The NCAA “agreed to let just about everything stay at the arena,” Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem said.

The new addendum requires the removal of the signs on the outside of the facility that say “Home of the Fighting Sioux” as soon as possible, Stenehjem said, and replacement of the logo carpeting as it wears out.

The other items covered by the addendum “include some of the more controversial things, including the logos at the end of seat rows, the brass etched standards along railings and the carpet on the suite level, which can stay (until) it wears out.”

Once the outside signs are removed, the arena will be in compliance with NCAA policies and UND would be entitled to host championship events in the two facilities, he said.

The NCAA also will remove UND from the list of offending schools deemed to be using hostile or abusive names and imagery.

[puck]

NCAA agrees to leave most logos at the Ralph. http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/245781/group/homepage/

[Let'sGoHawks!]

What about the lit up logos on the outside? I could see those replaced with a nice lit up interlocking ND, but they weren't specifically addressed in the Herald article.

[The Sicatoka]

From the Attorney General's web site:

http://www.ag.nd.gov/documents/09-26-12.pdf

[82SiouxGuy]

What about the lit up logos on the outside? I could see those replaced with a nice lit up interlocking ND, but they weren't specifically addressed in the Herald article.

My impression is that they were talking about all the lit outside signage, which would include the logos. Overall this is good news. The cost for replacing the signage will be much less than the original changes demanded by the NCAA. And it opens the building for hosting NCAA events again. Much better than some of the potential outcomes.

[Fetch]

still makes me want to PUKE

[CMSioux]

Meanwhile students at Flordia State are dressing up as native americans with war paint on their faces.

[passit_offthegoalie]

Big picture is nothing was accomplished by making UND drop its nickname.

I agree, and I share your frustration. The fact is, FSU got to keep their name because they are a big, powerful school and they convinced the tribal leaders to accept the nickname. It's not because they respect their mascot or because Seminole indians don't find it offensive.

The NCAA should stand by their position. Native American mascots either aren't acceptable or they are. There should be no exceptions.

Nothing 82SiouxGuy says will change my mind or convince me that I shouldn't be mad at FSU fans for their treatment of native american imagery or the NCAA for its double standard.

The NCAA deserves to be mocked. Every time FSU does something potentially offensive to native americans, the NCAA should be reminded that they are allowing it to happen.

[johnsowe]

Well we can host again which is a good thing.

[Rick]

still makes me want to PUKE

Me too. It would be nice if Mark Emmert, Bernard Franklin and the rest of the NCAA committee were right below me when I barf.

[82SiouxGuy]

I agree, and I share your frustration. The fact is, FSU got to keep their name because they are a big, powerful school and they convinced the tribal leaders to accept the nickname. It's not because they respect their mascot or because Seminole indians don't find it offensive.

The NCAA should stand by their position. Native American mascots either aren't acceptable or they are. There should be no exceptions.

Nothing 82SiouxGuy says will change my mind or convince me that I shouldn't be mad at FSU fans for their treatment of native american imagery or the NCAA for its double standard.

The NCAA deserves to be mocked. Every time FSU does something potentially offensive to native americans, the NCAA should be reminded that they are allowing it to happen.

FSU has always had a good relationship with the Seminole tribe. That is why the tribal leaders stepped up right away to support FSU. FSU didn't have to go and convince the tribal leaders That also happened with several other tribes. UND didn't have that support from any of the tribes in 2005.

Many of us expect the NCAA to extend the policy to all Native American names and imagery at some point in the future. They could possibly go even further. The exceptions were put in place to help the process along. You don't need to remind the NCAA of anything, they are very aware of what is going on and what their eventual goals are. But if you want to waste your time, go ahead and send your comments to the NCAA. The comments probably won't have much effect, unless they get enough backing to push up the timetable on the next step.

Your anger at FSU fans is misplaced. They are doing what is allowed by the school, and even encouraged by the school. If no one tells them that it is wrong, and why it is wrong, how would they know. Go ahead and be mad at the NCAA, it's their policy. Be mad at the FSU administration for allowing the antics. The fans are just supporting their school in the way they always have, just like UND fans would like to do.

[passit_offthegoalie]

Many of us expect the NCAA to extend the policy to all Native American names and imagery at some point in the future. They could possibly go even further.

I guess we will all just have to wait until the NCAA, in their infinite wisdom, decide to end the hostile and abusive treatment of native americans.

The exceptions were put in place to help the process along.

Do you mean the process of eliminating all native american nicknames under the NCAA's control? I think the fastest way to help that process along would be to just have a rule that you can't have a native american logo or mascot, period. It's not that complicated.

I don't get why you feel the need to defend the NCAA and argue with every person that is upset about the double standard, but whatever. I guess it's your thang.

[DamStrait]

Once the outside signs are removed, the arena will be in compliance with NCAA policies and UND would be entitled to host championship events in the two facilities, he said.

...and then send the asshats that are the NCAA the bill for it.

[82SiouxGuy]

I guess we will all just have to wait until the NCAA, in their infinite wisdom, decide to end the hostile and abusive treatment of native americans.

Do you mean the process of eliminating all native american nicknames under the NCAA's control? I think the fastest way to help that process along would be to just have a rule that you can't have a native american logo or mascot, period. It's not that complicated.

I don't get why you feel the need to defend the NCAA and argue with every person that is upset about the double standard, but whatever. I guess it's your thang.

I'm not trying to defend the NCAA. I said go ahead and blame them. Do whatever you want as long as you don't break the law. Just trying to give an explanation for the process so that people have a better understanding. Blind anger doesn't help people get through the process. Understanding what happened and what might be happening can sometimes help. At this point my concern is more with getting people focused on the future of UND athletics rather than the past and the anger that comes with being forced to change.

I believe that the exception rule was put in place to provide a buffer time period. You had some bigger schools with Native American names that had good tribal support like FSU and Utah. They would have put up a huge fight to keep their name and also had solid support from the tribes so it would have been hard for the NCAA to sell the ban to the public and to the government. That might have been enough to get the Federal government involved, which the NCAA doesn't want. This way they are proving that the ban works in schools that change the name, they are dividing and conquering in pieces rather than fighting 1 huge battle and they are conditioning the public to the removal of the names. For them, breaking this process into 2 or 3 pieces was an easier war to win than 1 huge battle on many fronts. Your way would have been faster if it had stuck, and schools like UND would have less to complain about. But my guess is that the NCAA felt the overall war would be easier to win if spread over time.

[passit_offthegoalie]

I'm not trying to defend the NCAA. I said go ahead and blame them. Do whatever you want as long as you don't break the law. Just trying to give an explanation for the process so that people have a better understanding. Blind anger doesn't help people get through the process. Understanding what happened and what might be happening can sometimes help. At this point my concern is more with getting people focused on the future of UND athletics rather than the past and the anger that comes with being forced to change.

I believe that the exception rule was put in place to provide a buffer time period. You had some bigger schools with Native American names that had good tribal support like FSU and Utah. They would have put up a huge fight to keep their name and also had solid support from the tribes so it would have been hard for the NCAA to sell the ban to the public and to the government. That might have been enough to get the Federal government involved, which the NCAA doesn't want. This way they are proving that the ban works in schools that change the name, they are dividing and conquering in pieces rather than fighting 1 huge battle and they are conditioning the public to the removal of the names. For them, breaking this process into 2 or 3 pieces was an easier war to win than 1 huge battle on many fronts. Your way would have been faster if it had stuck, and schools like UND would have less to complain about. But my guess is that the NCAA felt the overall war would be easier to win if spread over time.

Yeah, I've technically agreed with most of your points, but sometimes you should maybe just let people vent.

In this instance especially, because IMO the anger is justified. I think there WAS a double standard. I seem to remember that UND had to sue the NCAA just to have the chance to get tribal approval, while FSU with all their money and influence were able to get by without any problems from the NCAA. And then to see FSU and their fans treat the mascot the way they do, while UND, in my opinion, was actually trying to do everything to show respect....

It just doesn't sit right. That's all I'm saying.

[mksioux]

Yeah, I've technically agreed with most of your points, but sometimes you should maybe just let people vent.

In this instance especially, because IMO the anger is justified. I think there WAS a double standard. I seem to remember that UND had to sue the NCAA just to have the chance to get tribal approval, while FSU with all their money and influence were able to get by without any problems from the NCAA. And then to see FSU and their fans treat the mascot the way they do, while UND, in my opinion, was actually trying to do everything to show respect....

It just doesn't sit right. That's all I'm saying.

If UND had better relations with the tribes, even one tribe, back in 2005, it probably would have gotten the same exemption as Florida State. FSU got immediate and unequivocal support from the Florida Seminole tribe. UND did not. All UND had was a five-year old vague and qualified resolution from Spirit Lake, and Spirit Lake refused to reaffirm it for the NCAA. Moreover, UND had active hostility from other tribes within its border (notably, Standing Rock), which FSU did not have to deal with.

[82SiouxGuy]

Yeah, I've technically agreed with most of your points, but sometimes you should maybe just let people vent.

In this instance especially, because IMO the anger is justified. I think there WAS a double standard. I seem to remember that UND had to sue the NCAA just to have the chance to get tribal approval, while FSU with all their money and influence were able to get by without any problems from the NCAA. And then to see FSU and their fans treat the mascot the way they do, while UND, in my opinion, was actually trying to do everything to show respect....

It just doesn't sit right. That's all I'm saying.

If UND had better relations with the tribes, even one tribe, back in 2005, it probably would have gotten the same exemption as Florida State. FSU got immediate and unequivocal support from the Florida Seminole tribe. UND did not. All UND had was a five-year old vague and qualified resolution from Spirit Lake, and Spirit Lake refused to reaffirm it for the NCAA. Moreover, UND had active hostility from other tribes within its border (notably, Standing Rock), which FSU did not have to deal with.

mksioux is correct. All schools had the same appeal process, including UND. FSU kind of pioneered the process because the Seminole tribe immediately came out with complete approval of FSU using the name. So that was what prompted the NCAA to have the appeal process. All tribes that had a single tribe give approval for use of their name won their appeal. But the tribes had to affirm that approval during the appeals.

Spirit Lake had given conditional approval in 2000. However, they refused to reaffirm that approval during the appeal process. As a matter of fact, there was an active movement on Spirit Lake to remove that approval because people didn't believe UND lived up to the conditions that had been put on the original approval. Standing Rock actively campaigned against the name. So UND had zero tribes giving approval when the NCAA wanted it. That is why UND didn't win either of their appeals, in spite of the way that UND used the name. If Spirit Lake had confirmed their approval there is a pretty good chance that UND would still be the Fighting Sioux. It didn't happen. FSU may have gotten special treatment by the NCAA, but the NCAA then gave that same treatment to other schools that met the conditions. That's why there are I believe 6 schools in the NCAA that have approval to use Native American names and imagery. FSU is just the most visible.

[MafiaMan]

Meanwhile students at Flordia State are dressing up as native americans with war paint on their faces.

Did you see ESPN College Gameday last week and the FSU student holding the giant "SCALP 'EM" sign above his head? Unreal.

[darell1976]

Did you see ESPN College Gameday last week and the FSU student holding the giant "SCALP 'EM" sign above his head? Unreal.

Its okay in the eyes of the Seminole tribe.

[ScottM]

Its okay in the eyes of the Seminole tribe.

And fully blessed by the NC$$ too.